Molten Steel and 9/11: The existence and implications of molten steel in "the pile".

reply to post by filosophia


That paper is not proof. It is poorly written, self-contradictory, and comes to invalid conclusions.

If you want proof of inside job, you can just spend a little time on these boards, and discover the different people that spend a great deal of time day after day "debunking" and defending the official story.

If it was not an inside job, everybody would want a new independent investigation. Nobody would defend everthing in the official story. These "debunkers" defend things that never got investigated in the first place.

These "debunkers" call it their victory when NYCCAN.org was denied a new investigation october 2009.

What would a new independent investigation reveal?

"debunkers" defending every detail in the bogus official story = inside job proof

No investigation = inside job proof

But there is so much more proof of inside job

The media ignoring the 1300 architects and engineers petition for a new investigation = inside job proof
If there was nothing to hide, why has the media been told not to cover the petition for a new investigation...

The warnings overheard. Not just a few warnings. They were warned every day for a year before the attacks. There are many news articles covering this. But what warnings did we never hear about?... So they must have got thousands....


Bush and Cheney refused to testify publicly under oath, and nothing from their meeting with the comission was allowed to made public. Nothing.


Barry Jennings and Michael Hess.
They were trapped by BOMBS in WTC 7 for hours before the twin towers came down.
They both told the same story to reporters on 911.
Barry Jennings mysteriously died shortly before NIST's report came out.


Michael Hess yelling from WTC 7 before twin towers collapsed. Why was they trapped in WTC 7 for hours, when it was never hit by a plane, and before the towers came down???

The "molten steel" image is a fake:

Fake:





Original:





notice how the firefighters are in the exact same positions.

ATS opened a new thread recently, specifically to infiorm people that because of the amount of ad hominem attacks, insults, etc, which have been observed on 9/11 threads, new guidelines have been put in place.

If you're not aware of it I suggest you have a look at it:


I'm not a moderator, and no, I'm not trying to set myself up as one. I am a truther. I want to know the truth about 9/11.

This matters deeply to me because the offiical explanation of what happened on that day is the basis for some very, very serious consequences which resulted hundreds of thousands of people being killed, and that is still continuing.

It also formed the basis for 'emergency measures', in the form of the stripping away of very important individual rights. These absolute basic rights actually existed in law to protect people from any potential Government tyranny. This protection of the people against a dictatorial government is being stripped away at an incredible speed, still based on the fear of terror, which is, in turn, based on 9/11.

I care very deeply abput all those who lost their lives on that day, and the hundreds of thousands who have been killed as a result. I care very deeply that my protection as a citizen against a dictatorship govermnent is no longer in place. Once all the legal protections have been removed, the only so-called protection left is to trust that I am safe putting my freedom, my environment health, and my finances in the hands of government politicians, many of whom are known to be corrupt. This is not a situation I will accept willingly. For this reason, it is imperative to me that I uncover the truth of what happened that day, whatever that truth proves to be.

On the basis of the long hours of research I have done, I find so many anomalies in the OS that I find it impossible to believe. I believe there is a massive cover up going on. I need answers to some very important questions. If the Government wants me to trust it, I need proof that what they say is true, because they haven't provided that yet, and I need my protective rights to be re-instated.

9/11 is an emotive subject for many, because it is so very important. There are hundreds of thousands of people who feel pretty much the same as I do, and many who hold the opposite view. That's ok, because somewhere in there lies the truth, and that truth will emerge.

For this reason, I find it helpful to come on ATS and discuss significant issues with others, to learn more, and even to debunk ideas I might have about what happened if they are wrong. I am after the truth, that is my only agenda. I look at reasonable arguments, evidence and analysis which support those who believe a massive Government crime was committed on 9/11, and those who don't.

So, when I see people of whichever persuasion come on 9/11 threads and start disrupting reasonable discussion, it bothers me because it doesn't help uncover the truth, it obscures it.

I am also aware that if 9/11 was in fact a Government crime, as I believe it was, the perpetrators will go to any lengths to prevent this knowledge from being exposed. People who have the cold blood and callousness to plot and carry out mass murder on such a scale are perfectly capable, of course, of infiltrating all and any group of people trying to uncover the full details of 9/11.

Hence, for me personally, even people who come onto these threads advertising themselves as belonging to a recognised 9/11 truth seeker group are not beyond suspicion. It is to be expected the perpetrators will have placed agents in all of these groups with the sole purpose of derailing reasonable discussion, causing conflict between various groups of truthers and individuals, and especially of causing confusion about the evidence which exists and the theories being put forward.

For me, I no longer believe the OS, but all alternative explanations are possible until one is proven, beyond any doubt, to explain exactly what happened. I believe they all need to be given serious and meticulous consideration. As I said before, somewhere in there lies the truth, and we want to know what it is.

So, I just want to state my intention here.

No matter who it is, or which organisation they state they belong to, anyone who comes on these threads and hurls personal insults and slanders, who attack arguments in an attempt to discredit them without showing a reasonable reason for doing so, and who directs the discussion away from the topic for no valid reason, I am going to press the 'Alert' button and report them, as suggested in the ATS guidelines for 9/11 threads.

This topic is way too important for me to do anything less.

Originally posted by SpaceMonkeys
The "molten steel" image is a fake:

Fake:

Original:

notice how the firefighters are in the exact same positions.

Thanks for providing those photos, that's very interesting.

Does anyone happen to have a source for the 'fakes'?

Man oh Man Spoon I have been a Truther for so long. Almost since day 1 or 911. It took a couple days for it
to set in that what I thought looked like a demo actually was a duck.You get my meaning. I have hung steel for a
living. There isn't one iron worker I know who buys the OS.I don't know one. At the most there are those who just won'tr say. Anyway I've been up around and down and all thru this debate so early on, that I grew very tired of it.
Your thread right here is emaculate. Lately I've been coming back around to this unbelievably ignorant arguement
for the OS.
There have been some awesome posts lately on ATS but this. Look without getting all crazy right now, Your post does my heart good.

You nailed the door shut using a nail gun and 16 penny nails all around. Then you welded each nail. A truely great post Airman.
All those who don't see this now, the arguements over! You lose, the OS is a lie. If you don't see it now it's still not worth argueing with you about it because you never will see it. Just like O'rielly never will see it. Just like Hanity never will see it. Just like Bush and Ashcroft and Rumsfeld, Chenny, Pearly, Obama, and on and on .......
Your refusal to see it makes you a goner. I think my hats in the ring again.

Space monkeys

The "molten steel" image is a fake:

Ha Ha He like it matters if it is fake.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/cda283bb200c.jpg[/atsimg]

This isn't fake and it shows the outer aluminum mullion ( for the glass) that is bolted to the steel which right behind
it is turning to liquid with no blow torch insight. Oh please do tell me why?
This is why those who sought safty by hanging on the outside of the building fell to their deaths heat and electricity travel well thru aluminum.

Originally posted by reeferman
reply to post by Whyhi

 

No no...

The burden of proof is on you.


Where is your proof that "batteries" were kept on that floor in the first place for you to even speculate the molten material we all see is lead in the first place?

If you have ever melted lead, it does NOT glow red, it does NOT glow at all. Come on for pete's sake here. Pull our heads out.

reply to post by randyvs


I agree and thanks for your input.

Like you and steel-workers, I have yet to know one single educated person (who has actually looked into it and even some who haven't), who will admit that the OS is right or even could be right. Most people will either agree privately or choose not to discuss it, for fear of their livelihoods. I don't doubt that the vast majority of scientists and scholars know the OS is one of the more far-fetched conspiracy theories, though stay silent on the issue due to the socio-political/economical climate that was forged directly after the attacks and is enforced even to this day.

Right after the attacks, certain influences made short work of ostracizing anyone who dared question the OS being dreamed up, no matter how silly, nonsensical, crazy or absurd it is. In fact, anyone who dared, would lose their reputations, careers, livelihoods and apparently and undoubtedly some even lost their freedom and/or lives.

In fact, this same tactic is even employed to this day, some 9 years after the attack. Right off hand, I can think of Van Jones. If there was nothing to hide, then this ostracizing wouldn't be taking place and there wouldn't be such an effort to demonize these people, especially for asking logical questions. Since when is scrutinizing something as important as 9/11 (with all of its implications) something so bad? If for no other reason, this very practice should send up a huge red flag that a cover-up is in progress. There is really no other excuse for it.

However, this practice seems to be very effective, as most refuse to weigh in due to fear of being ostracized. I have little doubt in mind that most scholars, military tacticians, pilots and other officials know that the OS is BS, though due to the consequences, they choose to remain silent and who can hardly blame them? Again, I have no dount in my mind that it is a common belief among most who can still think on their own, that the OS is BS and the government has something to hide.

A truely great post Airman.

I'm Army (soldier), not Air Force (airman)


--airspoon

Originally posted by Whyhi
reply to post by reeferman

 

NIST Confirms "UPS" on 81st Floor of WTC2 Was Power Supply; May Explain Glowing "Fountain"

Modifications were made in 1999 to floor 81 in an area of the floor occupied by Fuji Bank to accommodate the weight of an uninterruptible power supply.

-Nist

While reading all of this, the first thought that came to mind was how interesting and dare I say it, coincidental that one of the floors that received damage, just happened to be "reinforced" just prior to the strike. Didn't we see another set of interesting events take place surrounding the location of the strike on the Pentagon? Further, didn't building seven undergo extensive renovations as the new headquarters for the city's emergency operations center?

ESV

reply to post by ExScientiaVeritas


there were hundreds of people close to the kennedy assassination that died mysteriously, many close to the iran contra mena ark drugs for guns fiasco who died

reply to post by slugger9787


People tend to die. It does happen.

In the case of Jennings it's unfortunate but hardly suspicious. And if they're busy knocking off everybody then why is Kurt Sonnenfeld still alive? Why are Richard Gage and Craig Ranke and Rob Balsamo, with their dangerous insight into the truth, allowed to carry on?

reply to post by wcitizen

The image is not "fake", but it has been reproduced or developed differently. It may have been done to make the the heat look hotter, but in reality it just looks a bit more dramatic being orange. In fact, the orange would indicate a lower temperature.
It is similar to photographing various light sources. Metal Halide, Incandescent, Mercury Vapor, whatever, will translate differently to the final printed image. In other words, the varying temperatures of the light sources will "color" the final photograph differently. This is much the same principal as developing the film with different techniques or programs if digital.

reply to post by benoni


Anyone truly interested in knowing the truth would weigh all sides of the argument . This includes examining the material that your opponent provides through links that have been posted .

I posted a link that gives proof as to how the cuts were made so , unless you have me on ignore , why did you turn around and ask about ladders ? This type of tactic only sets your cause backwards each time it is applied .

Most truthers would call me a debunker but , the type of tactic you have displayed does much more harm to the TM than I do by simply debating and offering real evidence . It is this manner of debate that you are engaging , that has caused the TM to stall for the last nine years . Posts such as that do nothing to push your cause forward . Instead , you guys take another hit each time this behavior is displayed .

So , don't blame debunkers for your failure to move forward , look at the harm you yourself are doing to your cause by stalling the potential progress that might be made if everyone didn't spend all their time responding to non-productive posts such as yours .

It honestly raises the question as to whether there really are dis-info agents in these threads , and if they aren't actually embedded within the truther camp .

reply to post by Stewie


Actually , it has been shown here on ATS , that the Jones fellow admitted to enhancing the color in that photo , as well as the photo of the material coming out of the tower .

I will try to find the source . It might take me awhile .

reply to post by okbmd

Would you say YOUR mission then is to exploit the "flaws" that you see in the truthers arguments, or to find the truth?
If it is to find the truth, what have you found?
If you tell me the OS can't be debunked, or that it is essentially the truth, well, I might just put you on ignore. It is my policy not to let to much clutter my room, if you know what I mean.
So, surprise me. Tell me the conspiracy facts that you think are least likely to be "debunked".

reply to post by okbmd

I am a digital artist. I can take a picture of you and control the light to get a more dramatic affect. In fact, reality in this regard doesn't really exist, other than trying to get the most representative image you can. But, alas, there are always trade-offs. In other words, you can have representative light, but lose some detail in what you are photographing, and thus possibly some evidence that may be important.
Not black and white.

reply to post by Ciphor


of course lead glows bright when super heated, I am not disputing that....

you can melt lead on an open fire = color is silver grey, the same fire cannot burn hot enough to give the lead a straw yellow colour
you need a furnace to melt aluminium = when it melts the color is silver grey
you need a blast furnace to melt iron = colour is orange to yellow
you need to add coal, aluminium and other elements then blast oxygen through your iron to make steel, thus raising its temperature several hundred degrees further.
Thermite also burns yellow in color... I have used it

You can never melt iron with wood... it does not burn hot enough, you can use charcoal which burns a lot hotter than wood but again you need a special furnace for this and it is not at all efficient.

you can gently and evenly heat steel to approx 190 degrees celsius with a gas and air mix, above this it dissipates heat as fast as you can put it in. This is why we use insulated ceramic mats for local heat treatment and stress relieving of steel and furnaces for total overall treatmernt. We normally heat to 600 degrees celsius when re-crystallisation occurs and the microstructure becomes refined over time usually 1 hour per inch of thickness.

you need acetylene gas and oxygen mixture at pressure to melt/cut steel. You will never reach these kind of temperatures with Jet A1/ Kerosene unless you use a pure oxygen mix and this did not happen in the wtc fires.

PEACE,
RK

Originally posted by okbmd
reply to post by Stewie

 

Actually , it has been shown here on ATS , that the Jones fellow admitted to enhancing the color in that photo , as well as the photo of the material coming out of the tower .

I will try to find the source . It might take me awhile .

I believe you are correct. the photo colour was enhanced however, there are many emergency workers reporting seeing pools of molten steel at ground zero. I would believe any firefighter over that charlatan JOHN GROSS anyday.

PEACE,
RK

As sad as I am to say this, I think it's wise to ignore some of the photographic evidence, as digital manipulation is always going to influence opinion. Certainly concentrating on the witness factor weights the argument that heat was a major observation at ground zero for weeks thereafter.

The removal and destruction of the steel (molton or otherwise) and debris was criminal - essentially destroying evidence. I can't think of any other high profile crime scene (although someone here may know of one) where the environment of the crime was removed and destroyed prior to a formal investigation. In my mind this is some kind of cover up by the very nature.

I heard a while ago that the removal vehicles were on tracker devices - is that normal for a clean-up operation - seems odd to me, but I'm no expert on that tbh.

S+F because the issue of extreme heat experienced by the clean-up workers is a significant point that is not so easily explained away as office fires and building collapse imo.

Originally posted by samhouston1886
reply to post by bsbray11

 

Do you ever wonder if they are going to use the truth about 9/11 to "crash" America?
Dont get me wrong, I want answers, we deserve them, I am seeing the truth get out a little more each day.

Given the fact that same people still run the show, I am very suspicious of all of the press 9/11 truth has been getting.

Me too, I'm suspicious of this. Not going to say more about my thoughts right now, except I think it is possible they are plotting something to obfuscate the real truth, possibly by seeming to give a certain credence to some current groups/theories.

The people who were capable of the detailed and complex planning, over a long time, and who sacrificed more than 3000 innocent civilians that they for their own agenda, are more than capable of scheming and coming up with a plan to stop the truthers really getting the truth out. We need to be really aware of this.