Our Society Doesn't Work Correctly

We live in a world with 6 billion other people just like you and I. We ALL have to work to pay our "debts" to society off. But why can 1 persons work be worth x1000+ more than another persons work? Why do we need a society that allows 1 person to advance so far ahead of the general population that it gives them power over us? Why does 1 persons work make them special and powerful and another persons work lets them just barely live to feed their family? We all enter this world with a family to support, Why can 1 person shower their family in luxuries and another person bust their as* to even feed their family?

Because of the money. Money money money. If you are a doctor, and went to school for 10 years to do your practice, you would feel entitled to more money than someone who dropped out of high school because of the effort you put in. A doctor will always make more money than a deli worker, for the supply of doctors are low, and the demand is high.

But why do we even have money? To give us something to show for our efforts? It only is good for the elite members of society. for every rich person, theirs thousands of poor people suffering and unable to live happily. This is not how Society should work. This is an obsolete method of how to run a civilization. It worked to get us to the stage we are at now, but we need a change. Drastic change.

We need a Respect based Society.Where clean water/real food/and a good place to live will be free. Where the truly good can thrive and the disrespectful will be punished for disrespect is the worst thing you can do to another person, for we all are human. In this new society there will not be currency, but ranks. The more you stay out of trouble and care for fellow souls the higher you move up on these ranks, the higher rank you are it shows other people that you are a good person, though if you are a disrespectful person people would be able to tell right away.

In this new society, you would still have your jobs you have today, only you would not be paid in money, your work will benefit all of humanity, giving that humanity provided you a house,clean water, and food. To get luxuries you need to be ranked accordingly, disrespectful people would not be able to get as much as respectful people would, luxuries would be free, you just have to be respectful enough to earn them, and maybe work for a small amount of time for said luxury, to benefit the luxury provider and produce more luxuries to replace the ones you've taken.

The hardest manual labor would be rewarded with extra luxuries, not too many that you are ahead of everybody by too much, but enough to make the hard days work worth it. Which today is the opposite of how it is, hard manual labor gets paid close to nothing.

Our gov would be ran by the highest ranking good people, which today we know the people running are indeed not good at all, if they had respect ranks most of them would be very low ranked. Which would put the people that deserve to be in charge and can make decisions that would actually benefit other people. We would actually respect our gov because we would agree with them and could trust them to make the right choices.

This kind of society could not survive if it is the only country doing it, the whole world would have to chance to this form of civilization for it to last. What would be wrong with that? People in 3rd world countries would finally have the food/water/shelter they have been literally dying without. Also the world would need to be in a global peace agreement, for if 1 group of people decide to get mad at another, the whole world has to intervene to stop both of them. For war is nothing but harm to all of us, war shows our weakness in dealing with situations with testosterone rather than logic/reason. War would become history.

Thoughts anyone? Feel free to add-on anything I'm missing. I'm unaware if this thread has been created before, for I have not searched it, so this is genuine thinking here.

To quote Tenacious D - '3rd Decree! No more rich people and poor people, from now on, we will all be the same.. uhh.. I dunno I gotta think about that one..'

Your idea ain't too bad but it still seems a bit like some people will be more equal than others.. Your ranking system could easily turn into a new class system which, unless there is some drastic change in the way people view things, could land us in an even worse situation!

But how do you set it up? How do you change the way people view wealth and power?

I'm not sure, but isn't all that pretty much a summary of what Marx already said and several communist nations already tried?

Would this society still suffer from the paradox , that no society can be simultaneously fair, free and equal.

If fair - harder workers can accumulate more (you have replaced luxuries with monetary reward)

If free - parents can pass these luxuries on to their children.

But not equal if - people have inherited luxuries they did not earn.

So many people on ATS would benefit from learning some history and economics.

I respect your desire for humanitarianism and respect but totally disagree with your implementation.

Yes, the doctor is worth far more than the manual labourer. I say this as a tradesperson. I did not complete university. I did not undergo 8 + years of intensive training in a highly demanding field and work 18 hour shifts. My skills are not demanded by people in life or death situations. I do not save lives regularly. I did not invest 100+k in aquiring a highly developed skillset. I do not deserve, nor can i command, the pay a doctor can. And rightly so,

Think about your solution to your percieved problems in society. What body would regulate and control as a thrid party in every exchange between party A and B? Under your system, an all powerful government, (ie the monopoly of the initiation of force) must be extablished in order to sort out what they deem to be 'fair'. Keep in mind, as you pointed out, that humans are greedy and will manipulate their enviroment in order to increase their wealth. Now fill your concept government, that is all powerful, with humans, who we agree are greedy. Not only will the normal amount of hyper greedy people make up this government, but because it has a monopoly of the use of force, (a sociopaths wet dream), your government will immediately be filled with not just the normal cross section of greedy sociopaths and psychopaths, but it will indeed be flooded by this type because these types lust for the use of power. What better home for them than the very place where force can be initatiated without consequences....ie youre all powerful government.

So youve started from a well intention place of equality and brotherhood and youve given the forceful implementation of your high minded ideals to a group of certified sociopaths. Sociopaths dont care about what you care about - sociopaths only care that *you care* about something. So they will lovingly tell you that the earnings you turn over to them, which always increase, will be used to even out the wealth gap, to feed the poor and take care of the sick, But since youve entusted sociopaths to run this show, they of course only told you they would spend your extorted funds aultisitically when in fact they line their pockets with it and bribe the groups and people that perpetuate their power.

Sociopaths, you see, desire power over you, and me. Since were normal folk, we cant imagine buying and selling people, so we assume those in power are like us. They arent. They never will be. They will always lie to garner your trust, they will always fleece you from your hard earned and well intentioned funds, they will always demand more and they will always implode. Oh, and before they do, expect a nice fat daddy war to loot you of any pocket change they allowed you to have until they realize that their house of cards is collapsing.

Just remember - humans are greedy. Thats the premise of your problem with society. But a government is made up of humans! Who are greedy! Power always corrupts, you know the rest. Giving one group complete control over all transactions is to let the vampires own and operate the only bloodbank in town.

I think this is a very important issue. Most of us are here on ATS because we see that the world is not right and we want to change it. Most of us would probably like the world to be more like the OP has suggested but without all the problems this sort of cooperative system has experienced in the past (comunism).

But how do we set it up?

How do we keep the sociopaths out of power?

I refuse to beleive that it's not possible, I'm just not sure how to go about yet. The best I've come up with is to be the change I wish to see and hope it catches on.

We are Human, we cannot just be left to pasture because we will wander off of a cliff. Seriously! We need the Big Bad Boogey Man to put us in our place, to keep us in line.

We need a tyrannical Dictator that will not die. He will force us all to sing Love songs and adore one another. He will force us to eat healthy. He will force us to live in nice homes where we are forced to clean up after ourselves.

The real seriousness of it is, if a rich person had to clean their own house (that big mansion, you know the one) would they even bother to clean it for themselves? If you give the poor a home would they stop throwing trash on the streets?

Why is it ghettos are so filthy? They aren't costing anyone much in overhead, why are they not maintaining them?

Because people will refuse to do those things that are required of them in maintaining a descent livable space. They will even go as far as lacking in personal hygiene unless they are forced to clean themselves.

Some will say No, that they are motivated on their own in up-keeping their own personal lives, but they are really motivated by something outside of themselves. Currently, it can encompass impressing a loved one, or impressing a boss (for a raise), or it can encompass the rewards that come with such "self-motivations".

Personally, I believe Mankind is not ready to be "given everything", instead we need to be forced to be better than we are.

People can be so creative on a personal level, and together they can do dynamic things, but overall they are not as willing to be a participant in Society even when it is just given to them. This must be the very reason TPTB want to create fear so that ultimately they can bring us together cohesively so that for once and for all we embrace the "One", one world order, one world religion, one world money, one world need.

Otherwise we just go to rot and we destroy even the very ground at our feet.

We all need something Greater than Ourselves, even the Elite doo doo!

reply to post by March of the Fire Ants


Well this is the unsolvable problem when we create a special group of people, usually signified by big hats, the power to intiate force. Naturally those who wish to use force will gravitate to positions where they can do so. Government is ideal because it offers an enviroment that allows them to use force with impunity. This is the mechanic that causes all governments, and the societies they rule, to collapse in an endless cycle of corruption and destruction. There simply is no way to watch the watchers.

The best thing we could do as a species is identify those who initiate force as evil, just as we have identified slavers as evil. Government is a concept and only exists in the mind, therefor if the mind is changed to oppose aggression of all kinds, even for those with big hats, we take a giant leap forward into the world we all want to see. Empowering a cabal of psychos to make the world a better place through violence is simply repeating old patterns that are proven to only result in utter disaster, or 'anarchy' as the term is commonly used (incorrectly) to desribe a jungle like enviroment of kill or be killed, which is exactly the opposite of what the vast majority of us wish to achive.

If slavery is defined as human ownership and thus evil, it follows that involuntary government is also human ownership and thus evil. When we will collectively realize this is unknown.

reply to post by Greensage


I believe you have a logical error at the core of your thinking that I suggest you analyze.

You argue that we should be 'forced' by some coercive entity to 'better ourselves', or at least maintain ourselves. You assume that people are unable to look after themdselves, but i site our existence and counter evidence. We are here. The state does not force me to brush my teeth. No one makes me aquire food to sustain my life. I have a roof over my head that was not susidised by government. In short I, and most of us somehow live and thrive without a Big Brother feeding and clothing us.

Some are unable to do this, of course. Humanitarians will always voluntarily pick up the slack of their own free will for those who cannot feed or clothe themselves. No force is needed for a charity to provide beds, for parents to take care of the handicapped, ect. But the majority of humans are able to sustain their own lives without handouts from an entitiy that robbed its funds from everyone. In short, we humans always build towards a non survival situation - thats the point of society, Force in the form of government is not needed for human beings to survive.

You assume (your post is full of assumtions, which i hope you would analyze) that people *want* to be looked after by and inpersonal entity from cradle to grave. For 'Big Brother' to provide for all their health care, old age and unemployment needs. And many do! Just as a black slave would hope to be cared for by his master after his usefulness has waned, people raised by the state expect the recources they are forced to give up to be spent wisely and in the best interest of their long term survival.

Ask the Greek how thats working out. 70%+ taxation, and suddenly theyre told 'no pensions for you!' Coming to a country near you inevitably.

You see these people who you entrust to look after us all will always look after themselves first. And since you dont see them for what they are, as violent predators, you nievely give up over half your earnings to them, desperately hoping that they have it all under control and will act benevolently, even when we know the corrupting effect of power.

So you would in effect give almost all your money away (almost all of it when inflation is considered) desperately hoping for a solution. Sadly, imo, hoping that if you give the gun to the right group of humans, and beg them to point it at the right group of other humans, hopefully you can live out your years in peace. But it doesnt work like that! Of course it doesnt! Would you be happy if the mafia came to you and demanded over half your income, promising 'protection' in return?! Of course you wouldnt! But the government, well, they wear big hats and instead of street thugs they have thugs in suits who give you the appearance of ligitimacy,

So you hope to control others because youre deeply insecure and afraid, so you give your power, energy and sanction to a dangerous group of psychopaths who say all the right things but only desire to milk you for all your worth. And when your milk runs dry, and you have nothing left to take, they send you to the slaughterhouse to extract your very body for whatever they can get.

Do you see how this course of action is illogical and actually is the opposite of what you wanted to achive in the first place?

Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions.

The OP says our wealth system lets groups of people advance way ahead of the majority of the population, My system was just a mere thought, not with much analysis put into it.

The reason for the thread was to see what people think. My idea behind what I said was that we need another form of payment for our work, which would replace currency. If we kept the same jobs we have today, and we continued to work in exchange for a nice place to live, good food, and clean water, no charge for luxuries, you just work the same schedule, but to gain luxuries you would have to have respect for the people and the planet you live on/with. People that are disrespectful would be unable to obtain luxuries until they've proven themselves worthy of the reward, but people that are disrespectful would still have the same house, food, and water you would. You would be forced to work to maintain yourself the same way you are forced to today, if you don't have an income, you will be forced out of your home and with nothing.

I understand people already have houses, food, water and maintain themselves, but at the cost of a resource you must work to maintain. If you take away the resource, that lets people be maintained for free while they are still working. Middle class have limited luxuries, and the rich have everything, while the poor have just enough to survive and barely anything else. Without money, the poor and middle-class would be equal with the rich.

This would also allow for our latest technologies to be passed down to our youth, which it cant be today due to the high cost.

If you did not want to work the job you have, you could get an education for free, and be whatever you qualify to be based on your skills. The idea is you continue to benefit humanity, and in reward humanity will take care of you. If you are disabled or too old you would just be taken care of, just like they are now.

Maybe that explained my thinking a little better.. Maybe it didn't. I'm not claiming this is the fix-it solution, I'm just floating ideas around.

Thoughts?

reply to post by Quasar_La-Zar


I've thought about a cashless society many times myself. All of the issues of power and control can be worked out with enough time. But I always draw a blank when it comes to population control. If everybody has everything they need to survive a lot of people will have big families. It won't take too long for us to hit our limits. So How do we fairly limit the population?

reply to post by Neo_Serf


Wow, you certainly read into my sarcasm this morning! LOL No, sorry, I am not at all how you describe and I cannot find it coherent in my own thoughts, but, I do now realize I should have identified my sarcasm more clearly. Maybe I should have used a smiley! LOL

Can you not see the Irony in my statements? Even if we manage to "evenly distribute" and "actively advance" those who do good as the OP presents, the facts of our Reality and the already existing examples of human behavior tells us that they are not "motivated" by honor or esteem. In our Society we are motivated by Money and Success, and when either of those is removed we find the worst of us, and it is a Natural Expression of Human Nature.

None of what I said is untrue, but what you fear is that I am somehow condoning the NWO, the Big Brother brushing your teeth, but that is a wrong interpretation.

The real irony is that I do know people well enough to know that they do need a Motivator and they do need something Greater than themselves.

To say that being here today is a testament to the success of Society, but that is not true, that itself is the illusion. You have always been told when to do it, how to do it, and where to do it; you have been convinced that by following the rules you have simply become Successful and Self-fulfilled. Funny how that isn't the real Norm, because I certainly see the rest of the world working just as hard but with little success and few rewards.

Without Society you simply would not exist. Without the trappings of Gods, Lords, Kings, and Rulers you would simply be Spirit Forces of some other proportion. You my friend are Property just as we all are, and you are actively participating in a lie. (sadly this part is not sarcasm)

The next step for Society is Change, but from within on a personal level. Too often we work beside substandard efforts, and too often those that are substandard are that way through and through. Individually each of us must accept personal responsibility otherwise we will have to be told what to do.

I do believe that we will lose all those things that separate us all. I believe that the "Truth" will set us free and I am quite convinced that our entire world has been "Created". Those Creators are our Lords and they will return to Earth and establish "Heaven on Earth". I believe there is an Anti-Christ (not yet declared to himself), and our own False Prophet (Obama). I believe the USA is the Whore of Babylon, coupled with Money with the Great Harlot (the Queen of England). I believe that a Great Change is coming very fast, and for the future I do see a better Society. We will be Ruled again by our True Leaders. If you feel this is the NWO than I guess my statements would be confusing. Christ is not the NWO.

I would guess to say our "Motivators" should be reevaluated soon.

This video is the most interesting thing I have ever watched. And it supports my theory that money needs to go!
www.youtube.com...

Yeah the Zeitgeist films are pretty cool, certainly a lot of interesting stuff in there but I think there are some complicated things to sort out!

A lot of people say the Venus Project is perfect communist propaganda which I guess it is.. A perfect socialist utopia, or Star Trek.

I don't know what to make of it really. It would be awesome if we could pull it without any of the usual revolutionary cock-ups! It would definitely require some major event IMO and there's a fair few different ones to pick from, success probably depends on what happens, if anything.

Originally posted by Quasar_La-Zar


We need a Respect based Society.Where clean water/real food/and a good place to live will be free. Where the truly good can thrive and the disrespectful will be punished for disrespect is the worst thing you can do to another person, for we all are human. In this new society there will not be currency, but ranks. The more you stay out of trouble and care for fellow souls the higher you move up on these ranks, the higher rank you are it shows other people that you are a good person, though if you are a disrespectful person people would be able to tell right away.

I was with you right up to this paragraph.

No. water, food and a place to stay should not be free. Those are the basics of survival and as such are the currency of proper society. Every person should have to contribute to supply these for his/her self.

We already have the welfare system and it doesn't do anything but create more dependency and lowers the quality of life of all involved.

As far as your ranking system that shows that you are better than another person, it is called an ISM nowdays and is obviously bad for society. Ageism, sexism, racism.....now it gets replaced with a legislated rank that is imposed on everybody?

Ever read about the caste sytem?

This is what you are advocating.


Sorry.
Like your ideals but the method has too many flaws.