France condemns Castro Roma 'holocaust' remark

France condemns Castro Roma 'holocaust' remark

France says comments by former Cuban leader Fidel Castro about its treatment of Roma migrants are unacceptable and show his ignorance of history.

BBC News

I'm not too familiar with this whole Roma situation in France. I've heard about it, but not read up on it too much.

So was Castro wrong to call it a holocaust?

Are France's actions justified?

What do French ATS members think?


It says on the link that Castro was promoting his autobiography. I was under the impression it had already been out for several years, unless he has written a follow up.

reply to post by Kram09


I cant say for certain without a more detailed accounting, as I dont think there is any one "event" to pin it on, but suffice to say the Romani a.k.a, the Roma a.k.a the Gypsies have drawn a pretty short straw from every nation and every people at some point in time...and have faced it with more dignity than most could muster.

They have an old proverb: "Prohasar man opre pirend, sa muro djiben semas opre chengende"

"Bury me standing, I've been on my knees my whole life."

From my experience with Europeans on these internets, many of them at the very least seem to harbour ill feeling toward the Roma. I'm not trying to generalize - I'm sure that all right-minded Europeans are quite accepting. But the folks that I've seen speak about the Roma haven't really had nice things to say.

To me it sounds like someone was offended that anything could be compared to killing the Jews in WWII. Any suggestion that the Jews aren't the only one's who suffered or are suffering, and you are going to be attacked. Again, we can't have people thinking that us Jews aren't the only oppressed people. Don't believe me? Try bringing up the fact that the Jews were only a very small portion of those who suffered at the hands of the Nazis. If you aren't accused of being an anti-semite, you will be called a Holocaust denier. Trying comparing anything to the holocaust and then the attack dogs come out and blast you for not furthering the myth and embracing ignorance.

--airspoon

Talk about the pot calling the kettle!
It's my opinion France needs to take a step back and apologize for it's own insensitivity and hypocrisy.

Take a look at one of their newest add campaigns and then tell me they have the right to point the finger at someone else?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/324419fea63a.jpg[/atsimg]

(The insinuation being if the USA had 'thought ahead' and built the Twin Towers a bit shorter the planes would have flown right over them)...

peace

reply to post by silo13


That advert was for a French newspaper. That has nothing to do with the French government.

That would be like saying that the US government is hypocritical in denoucing someone else, just because of a tasteless front page on the National Enquirer !

In the UK, we have pretty good equality amongst races, with the one exception of Gypies/Roma/Romnichal.

They appear to be fair game for prejudice, discrimination and abuse.

For example, at football grounds, where widespread racial abuse has been pretty much stamped out, you still get hundreds of people chanting ''gyppo, gyppo'' towards any opposition player who displays a cliché Roma look of a darker complexion and long black hair.

Nobody seems to bat an eyelid at this, but if it was a racial slur towards any other race then arrests would likely be made.

reply to post by Sherlock Holmes


Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the "Roma way" about conning people out of money and/or favors? I have heard several gypsies say that they are taught how to con people for money, from a very early age. If the majority of gypsies are out conning people and it is their heritage, then people are right in being weary of them.

Where does the political correctness end? Are we now going to treat child molestors and bank robbers as equals too? Out of political correctness, should I hire a convicted child molestor to watch my children, since they too are people and need jobs?

Don't get me wrong, I'm under no illusion that all Roma are crooks or con-wo/men but if is in their heritage to con people out of valuables, then of course they are not going to be liked and they are going to attract weariness. Would I be discriminatory if I refused to get into a vehicle with a member of Al Qeada? What about if I traveled to Afghanistan as a civillian? Would I be wrong for not wanting to walk amongst the locals?

--airspoon

Originally posted by airspoon
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the "Roma way" about conning people out of money and/or favors? I have heard several gypsies say that they are taught how to con people for money, from a very early age. If the majority of gypsies are out conning people and it is their heritage, then people are right in being weary of them.

Only some communities, just as there are some communities of black people in the US, that have a culture of violence, drugs and gangs.

Most Romnichal people that I know, are just normal decent people, whose only difference from anybody else is their ethnicity.

Most Gypsies in the UK don't live the traditional lifestyle in caravans, ruining people's fields, and in fact many of the people that do live that lifestyle aren't actually Romany, such as the Irish tinkers.

Originally posted by airspoon
Where does the political correctness end? Are we now going to treat child molestors and bank robbers as equals too? Out of political correctness, should I hire a convicted child molestor to watch my children, since they too are people and need jobs?

I'm not talking about political correctness here. I'm talking about everybody being treated equally.

Child molesters and bank robbers obviously cannot be treated equally, because of their actions.

You can't go around assuming that Roma are thieves, unless the individual Romany has been convicted of that crime.

That's the clear difference.

Originally posted by airspoon
Don't get me wrong, I'm under no illusion that all Roma are crooks or con-wo/men but if is in their heritage to con people out of valuables, then of course they are not going to be liked and they are going to attract weariness. Would I be discriminatory if I refused to get into a vehicle with a member of Al Qeada? What about if I traveled to Afghanistan as a civillian? Would I be wrong for not wanting to walk amongst the locals?

It's only part of their heritage, in the same way that it's part of the black American's culture to rob, kill and form gangs. ie. it isn't.

Most of these criminal sub-cultures form out of socio-economic factors, and if you ever go to some parts of Eastern Europe, you'll notice that the Roma are treated as second-class citizens, and the conditions they live in aren't too dissimilar from the third-world.

reply to post by blood0fheroes


Nice quote. I have never once heard anti-gypsy sentiment in the Americas to be honest. However... I'm not entirely certain 99% of Americans even know what/who/where Gypsies are. I would hazard a guess that most think it's a title you'd place on someone "weird" and rouge, wandering.

But lets see... The Turks murdered them. Russians murdered them. Germans murdered them. France, Italy, Spain and most definitely Britain, all murdered them. In fact many people think Jews were the first people rounded up and slaughtered by the Germans under Hitlers power... wrong.. it was, in fact, Gypsies. BEFORE Hitler even took over 100% control of the country, in Munich they were already rounding up Gypsies in 1933.

France just doesn't like being told it's wrong in any way, ever..

reply to post by Rockpuck


Indeed, it is rare to hear anti-gypsy sentiment from Americans, because most arent aware that they live here, too.
A few that I've met stateside who still wish to carry on something of the old lifestyle and have morphed quite well into the life of a trucker. My interest in their culture started as any good story does; with a girl.

Her name was Raven Marie, and she was an american born gypsy, whose grandfather had become quite well off. We met in germany, as she was working at a hostel that I was staying in. I only knew her for a week, but she was possibly the most fascinating woman I have ever met; eighteen and wise beyond her years.

The gypsies of Italy further amazed me when I was living in Vicenza, and I learned that though, yes, they may lie, cheat, and/or steal to provide for themselves - there is no violence inherent to this end. Here is an example :

Say you park your car with something of value displayed for all to see as they pass. If a gypsy happens upon your car and decides that your valuables should be relinquished, they would check to see if all doors, etc. were locked before "breaking into" your car. Should the car be completely secure, and the prize still worth the effort, they would go to great pains to tap out the smallest window possibly to gain entry, causing you the owner the least possible in repairs.

There was a local saying, that, Should you be fool enough to leave things in your car, you should also be fool enough to leave it unlocked!

So though I may not condone the action they sometimes take, I really cannot fault them for doing so either, and i've come to the conclusion that their treatment by others, the general stigma around them, is simply mankinds nature at it's worst: We fear that which we do not know, and what we fear we come to hate.

reply to post by blood0fheroes


I've met a few Gypsies but like you it was also a girl that made me actually "look into" their culture (Romania as it happens) simply fascinating. She was of course completely Americanized, had she not looked "different" with an English name I would have been none the wiser.

My favorite group of "gypsies" (in the American sense I guess) would be the Irish Travelers.. so bizarre that they could exist in the first place, let alone that the reason they exist even today was a military campaign by Cromwell, who displaced Rebels and forced them into the rocky Western of Ireland where they became homeless.

Most people, especially Americans, would also have no clue that "Gypsy" as an actual ethnicity is a Indo-European/Indian racial mix.. they are essentially a mix of typical "whites" and Pakistani/Indian ethnicity (though technically all are Caucasian anyways) Which I suppose actually helped secure their culture for hundreds of years.. hard to melt into society when everyone's pasty white and well, you're not.

Hm, interesting, I thought gypsies had migrated north from egypt. At any rate, working in hospitals in the us I have met gypsies from time to time, and my impression of them was free spirited and sexy. Had a girlfriend at the time and how I wished I didn't! They were very open, enticing and provocative.

reply to post by Rockpuck


I am impressed by your knowledge of the Romas, my father have studied them and all you're commenting is real.
Worth to mention is that Romas are forbidden to interact with Gajos (non-Romas), they are most likely to get shun if for example woman marries a non-Roma. I am glad you brought up that they (Romas) where killed, not only by the Nazis but the other national groups.
I laugh everytime ignorants don't know the history & origin of the Romas.

From what I have seen in the news, France is sending back to Romania several Roma families, giving them some money (that will not solve their problems of not having work back in Romania, the reason why they left, like other people) and they are thinking about changing the laws to make it harder for them to be naturalized French, even with the possibility of removing their French nationality in some case, including their children's nationality.

The Romanian Roma are a little different from the Portuguese Gypsies, but that is only natural, if we think about the different life they had to live on a country that had such big problems as Romania.

The European Union has also started to look into this situation, because banning some people from another member state is just another way of saying that they are second class citizens.

Where I live there are several Gypsy families, some of them poor but hard workers, some that choose the easier(?) way of living outside of the law, some even rich.

They are no different from other people, they have the same problems and needs that we all have.

PS: here in Portugal we use the word "gajo" in a way that can be translated as something like "guy", so I guess their influence in the lower classes is very strong here in Portugal.

I think its damn nasty what the French Gov are trying doing to the Roma.
They are wanting to round up and collectively kick out a whole ethnic group from their land-how is this not rascist?

OK they are not saying they will be shipped off to camps or shot on site-but its certainly a move in that direction IMO.

Instead of treating them all like "undesirables" why don't they instead help build the ghettos they are forced to live in into nicer places,where there are job opportunitys and nicer homes?

Maybe the fact that the Roma have been treated like a bunch of theives and scammers has in fact made them more likeley to commit crime in france-as they do not have the basic standards of living that most in France have.

You know the saying "treat people like crimminals-and they will start to behave as such..."

By wishing to boot out an entire ethnic group the French government are commiting a kind of "non lethal ethnic cleansing," IMO.

Whos next?

The Africans? The Poles? The unemployed?

Once a government deems one ethnic group to be "undesirable,"you think they will stop there?
I doubt it.

The european union can't do anything about , all they can do is publicly criticize the action of the french government.

The gypsies ( actually this is the term they themselves prefer , rather than romani or roma ) are given 300 euros , in order that them leaving the country is a voluntary process .

They can't be thrown out from France as they have romanian passports and this will be against the "european constitution"

Some leave, some don't. Those who don't take the money and wish to stay in France. usually settle in illegally created camps that are destroyed , they can't present documents that they are able to make a living in France so now they are deported.

Every country has its gypsies , france , spain , england , america , they are everywhere, born and raised there. These gypsies in France are from Romania.

Many voices are saying that this measure it's actually a marketing maneuver ,as the presidential race is not that far away and Sarkozy lost many of his supporters because of the austerity time we live in , and in a recent poll more than 70% of his supporters agree with deporting the gypsies.

Castro is not the first saying this , comparing these actions with the ones of the nazis , but is the first person that the french authorities replied to, wonder why...

I can write many things about the romanian gypsies , good and bad , but i believe it will be useless as most in here got the idea from previous posts in this thread, all i can say for sure is that the french are in for an unpleasant surprise : the gypsies will return.

They have families that can reach 10 persons in numbers , that will be 3000 Euros for a family , plus the ride free to Romania. In no more than a month the head of that gypsy family will be back in France , exactly in the same place he was taken in the first place, that's how the gypsies are, it's in their blood.

Once the french people will realize this, they will understand that this entire affair was a huge waste of the tax payers money , and put France in a sensible situation in this troubled international context.

I remember a nice story about a romanian gypsy during Ceausescu's regime . He needed a passport in order to get to Germany if i remember right. He got in contact with someone working for the ex-secret romanian service asking for help. The guy managed to help him with the passport but it took a while, about a month or so. When he wanted to deliver the passport he called the gypsy " hey, i got your passport" , the gypsy replied "i've been to germany and returned already and even spent a week in austria" ...

That story is true and says it all about the measures taken by the french authorities , massage a wodden leg..

Gypsies is often used because it's an english word and english is very influencial. Romani is the correct term for the ethnic group.

Here we are talking about the Roma community, Romanis from eastern Europe.
Gypsies live in western Europe, they can be called Romanis but they are not Romas.
There are various groups of Romanis with differences in location of origin, language etc...

There is about half a million French Romanis living in France for centuries. They have citizenship. For those who know football, I have the name Gignac popping out of my head as he had a winning goal disallowed tonight and I was listening to the game, he's a well-known Romani.

The French government is expelling Romas from Romania illegally staying in France.
Romania and Bulgaria are part of the EU but they are not fully integrated to the Schengen zone yet.
A citizen of a EU member state can travel in the EU without a passport or a visa.
If the member state is also a signatory of the Schengen agreement, this citizen can stay in any other state of the Schengen zone more than 90 days without a resident's permit and can work without a work permit.
So despite being part of the EU, Romanians and Bulgarians are illegals past 90 days if they don't have a resident's permit.
And there is a EU law forbidding the expulsion of members state citizens (except in special cases) so that has created an odd situation where illegals are legally 'unexpellable'.

To go round the law, the French governement is using one of the special cases, breach of the peace, claiming illegal camps are a breach of the peace which is a controversial point. A court in Lille has canceled several expulsion orders ruling the illegal occupation of a community ground is not enough to qualify a breach of the peace.
Another controversial point is the tactics the French government is using. They focus on the dismantling of illegal camps as soon as they appear which is considered by some an harassment as the groups can't settle anywhere and are constantly chased. Until recently, when a new illegal camp was set up, if they didn't create any other problem which was usually the case, they were left alone at least for a few months until they find a legal spot or leave.
A ministerial note from early august was recently leaked in the press asking the dismantling of 300 illegal camps in priority the Rom's ones. I believe it will be used by the government opponents to show there's a prejudice against the Romanis as they are singled out.

Originally posted by ArMaP
From what I have seen in the news, France is sending back to Romania several Roma families, giving them some money (that will not solve their problems of not having work back in Romania, the reason why they left, like other people) and they are thinking about changing the laws to make it harder for them to be naturalized French, even with the possibility of removing their French nationality in some case, including their children's nationality.

They are given 300 euros if I remember correctly. This is not specific to this situation of the Romas. It's a law passed a few years back, any illegal who voluntarily turn himself is given this money (invites abuse if you ask me...).
Some say that by stopping the installation of new camps, the government is giving no other solution for the Romas but to take the money and leave, be voluntarily expelled which is better looking for the numbers than forced expulsions.

The talked about removal of citizenship is somewhat related to the incident of mid-july (see further down) but not directed especially at Romanis. In short, a naturalized French would lose citizenship if guilty of specific crimes like the murder of a policeman or so... It's only a proposal at the moment and the government had to back down on many points already.

My personal view on this is it's a political stunt. There are local elections in march and presidential/parliament elections in 2 years, the government is entangled in a scandal that has been sticking for 2 months and just doesn't want to go away. It's an overused tactic from the French right to deflect the critics and divert the attention using security issues, they identify a security problem that is non-existent and they implement a solution for the non-existent problem.
There was a serious incident in mid-july, a car forcing a police road block, a cop shooting at the car, driver dead, it was a Romani and 50 Romanis attacked the gendarmerie in retaliation. It's serious but only the people involved should be prosecuted. The French government has used this event to flex muscles and look like it is restoring public order when truly it was a local incident. The perpetrators were not even Romanians but French.
It's only my view and I admit I may be biased towards the Romanis.

Edit to add two good links in english :

Report of the gendarmerie attack by the BBC site :
Troops patrol French village of Saint-Aignan after riot

An opiniated but informative blog :
Gendarmerie Attacked, Brice Spectacularly Optimistic

After reading his comments and what all the uproar is on, there is some similiarity between what is going on with the Romani people, that reflects the era of World War II, before, during and afterwards.
As memory of history serves, before, during and after World War II, there were very few countries that were accepting of the Jewish people, forcing them to either living in ghettos or in small communities, or forcing them out of different towns, as they were not a wanted people or welcomed. Too many countries of Europe, before the Nazi's started to round up the Jewish populations from the areas that they controlled, were either not accepting or just turning them away from their countries. This continues with pogoms and straight out erradication of towns where there was a heavy Jewish populations and centers. During World War II, there were persecution and people who turned them away, though there were those, at great risk to their lives that went through to protect these people. Then after World War II, no one really wanted to take them.
Now the Romani, have never been a welcomed people in Europe, even before the European Union was formed. I spent 3 years in Italy, about 30 years ago, and saw first hand where they were shunned and avoided, where these people just stayed in the fringes of society, treated like a second class citizen, neither welcomed or desired. Part of this is fear, as most, from what I could recall, tend not to stay too long in one place, and there is a general distrust of such.
It is a shame that the governments of Europe does not recognize this people as a unique culture and help them join into a society, rather than continuing to push them away from the general society.

Originally posted by airspoon
To me it sounds like someone was offended that anything could be compared to killing the Jews in WWII. Any suggestion that the Jews aren't the only one's who suffered or are suffering, and you are going to be attacked. Again, we can't have people thinking that us Jews aren't the only oppressed people. Don't believe me? Try bringing up the fact that the Jews were only a very small portion of those who suffered at the hands of the Nazis. If you aren't accused of being an anti-semite, you will be called a Holocaust denier. Trying comparing anything to the holocaust and then the attack dogs come out and blast you for not furthering the myth and embracing ignorance.

--airspoon

The number of Jews killed in gas chambers by the Nazis is widely estimated at about 3.7-3.8 million. In addition about 200,000 gypsies were gassed.

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