meat = shorter life

There is a clear correlation between obesity and mortality. Many people have had success limiting high glycemic foods while trying to lose weight. To avoid muscle loss during long term caloric deficit, eating high protein is essential. The low carbers claim eating carbohydrates stimulates their appetites to an uncontrollable level.

Are there any conclusive studies done that compare the effects of low fat whey protein VS soy protein?

Lots of gym rumors that claim whey protein from milk is better for muscle growth and that soy protein is a little girly drink that will stimulate estrogen production in males.

Originally posted by Faiol
so all the animals have shorter life ... well, are all are doomed

Animals in a natural environment are not a good model for human longevity as animals in the wild lead a horribly harsh life, much as our ancestors did, hence the reduced age in most indigenous cultures and why elders were revered and even imbued with mythical qualities. To live to 80 in the 1200's was incredible.

reply to post by Bordon81


There is evidence that soy proteins mimic estrogen and so will reduce muscle growth. This is only really a big issue in people who consume lots of soy protein or top bodybuilders and isn't really important in the average persons diet. Although there has been concern regarding women with a history of breast cancer consuming soy protein but like so many things there just isn't enough evidence to make a decision one way or another.

Originally posted by Bordon81
The low carbers claim eating carbohydrates stimulates their appetites to an uncontrollable level.

It does. A high fat/ low carb diet satiates one with less calories than does a high carb/low fat diet.

And there is a reason why carbohydrates stimulate appetite. In the presence of insulin, Lipoprotein Lipase (LPL) activity increases on fat cells causing fat to shuttle into fat cells and the body switches from burning fat as fuel to burning glucose as fuel. The simple presence of insulin clears fat from the bloodstream to allow sugar to used solely. The negative stimulus of insulin (when insulin lowers) LPL activity increases in muscle cells causing muscle to switch from glucose to fat as fuel.

The reason why insulin resistant people are fat is because of insulin's direct effect on LPL. Insulin resistance leads to hyperinsulinemia leads to increased chronic fat deposition. Even in the presence of a caloric balance, if insulin remains high, the fat will not be be mobilized. This effect is exactly why fat people overeat. They are overeating and yet are starving at the cellular level because the calories are being stored and not released.

This explains why maintaining a caloric deficit through low/moderate intensity exercise and/or diet doesn't work for fat loss. You have to improve insulin sensitivity through exercise and/or consume less foods that stimulate insulin secretion.

So, yes, eating carbohydrates will elevate blood insulin levels and lock calories in fat cells thereby causing a cellular starvation that signals to the brain...."I'm HUNGRY FOOL"....

reply to post by Bordon81


I have been using a hemp protein powder in my post workout shakes for about a year. I have never used whey, so I can't give a comparison... But I have been getting great results.

I have heard good things about rice protein powder as well.

I have read conflicting opinions on whey protein. I think high quality whey products are probably fine for the body. There are however, many cheap low quality whey products that are not easily digestible and can cause health issues, mainly due to buildup in the intestines. Many also contain artificial sweetners/ingredients, high fructose corn syrup, and/or other additives I would rather avoid.

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


It should be understood that our natural diet is one of seasons. In the spring we could consume a diet with balanced carb/protein/fat. In the summer our ancestors are recorded as switching to more carbs (think natural grains, berries etc). However when winter came around, as much as we tried to preserve carbs using fruit leathers, flours, and fruit preserved meat we most certainly resorted to excessive meat consumption.

This is the natural diet and maybe our bodies have mostly adapted to this, however the Okinawans eat a diet that is low in saturated fat, high in healthy fats, contains plenty of protein and mostly complex carbs. Along with plenty of exercise of course and maybe a few drops of alcohol They don't really consume simple carbs and refined sugar hardly ever appears in the past (long living) generations.

The problems the vegetarians run into and indeed the OP is that they continually use limited studies as a comparison while utterly ignoring any population that seems to conflict with their viewpoint. Yes consuming large quantities of meat without a balance seems to create disease in socities that are not used to such things.

It seems to be that big spike of insulin and/or a sustained high level that causes the issues. It's interesting to note that even arthritis has been associated with a higher intake of simple carbs.

Originally posted by JohnnyTHSeed
reply to post by Bordon81

 

I have been using a hemp protein powder in my post workout shakes for about a year. I have never used whey, so I can't give a comparison... But I have been getting great results.

I have heard good things about rice protein powder as well.

I have read conflicting opinions on whey protein. I think high quality whey products are probably fine for the body. There are however, many cheap low quality whey products that are not easily digestible and can cause health issues, mainly due to buildup in the intestines. Many also contain artificial sweetners/ingredients, high fructose corn syrup, and/or other additives I would rather avoid.

Things do not get stuck or buildup in the intestines, if they did you would fall to the floor in terrible pain and require surgery. It's the same thinking behind colonics, the intestines do not contain pockets where stuff accumulates. Whey protein however has drawbacks because it is quickly absorbed so if you've had a hard day working out then a casein protein is better as it takes longer to soak into your system. However for the after workout shake a whey protein product will work better than hemp because whey contains every protein you need without the body having to break it down and recombine bits and pieces. I would suggest trying whey for a couple of months and seeing if you improve at a greater pace.

The top atheletes tend to use a whey protein for an immediate after workout shake and casien before going to bed to prevent muscle breakdown. However these are top atheletes and it just seems a bit much for the average person to be worried about.

I've heard issues regarding rice protein and rare earth metal contamination but i don't know of any good studies about that issue.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


Agreed. Honestly, looking around the world, the longest living, healthiest populations are those that consume whole foods and, in some cases, limited amounts of extremely minimally processed foods (like grains). Some are high-fat and some are high-carb, but the common theme is the exclusion of, generally because of geography/economy, industrialized seed oil and processed carbohydrates.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
However for the after workout shake a whey protein product will work better than hemp because whey contains every protein you need without the body having to break it down and recombine bits and pieces. I would suggest trying whey for a couple of months and seeing if you improve at a greater pace.

I used to use hemp protien which gave me little results, granted I didn't have a very good workout plan at the time. After going through a phase where I thought protien powder was BS I finally decided to add it to my diet a month or 2 ago. I can honestly say it's blasted me to the next level in my muscle gains and recovery when I surf. before the whey I was always getting injured and gains I made were pretty small, this was while eating a pretty good diet as well.

I would source out the best quality whey you can possibly get as some brands contain heavy metals and pesticides/hormones etc. if not organic. Also I always mix the whey with a little bit of raw milk and/or butter, I feel this helps with the fast absorption you mentioned and it gives me any extra co-factors that may not have transferred through to the powder.

I'm in the process of sourcing out whole liquid whey so eventually I can cut back on the powder and get a little carb boost but the powder is definitely legit imo.

Originally posted by Sourdough4life
I would source out the best quality whey you can possibly get as some brands contain heavy metals and pesticides/hormones etc. if not organic. Also I always mix the whey with a little bit of raw milk and/or butter, I feel this helps with the fast absorption you mentioned and it gives me any extra co-factors that may not have transferred through to the powder.

I'm in the process of sourcing out whole liquid whey so eventually I can cut back on the powder and get a little carb boost but the powder is definitely legit imo.

Without turning this into a bodybuilding/training thread i should advise you to ignore the liquid whey nonsense, it's marketting hype designed to rip money from people as are most things in the training world. A quality whey powder will do you fine, mixed with either skimmed milk, semi skimmed or full fat depending on your stage of training. Almond milk is another alternative if you're looking for a low fat alternative that includes plenty of minerals and things. You are right to avoid the cheap powders.

Casein should be used to produce a longer release, often before bed. Some people actually combine the two mixing a small amount into their post workout shake and then a pure casein shake before bed.

This explains why maintaining a caloric deficit through low/moderate intensity exercise and/or diet doesn't work for fat loss.

Fat burning is an oxidation process that is limited by the degree of your aerobic exertion amongst other things. As you say trying to maintain a significant calorie deficit through dieting alone does almost invariably lead to muscle loss rather than fat loss. Even adding 100 grams of dietary protein every day does not stop muscle catabolism unless you exersize every muscle and keep your calorie deficit reasonable.

For example a large male with 50 or more pounds of fat to burn has a much easier time. Thats because total fat calories burned is limited on a daily percentage basis. For example if someone with 50 pounds of fat can oxidate 1 percent of that fat per day they may expect to lose over 3 pounds a week of fat quite easily at first. Contrast that to some poor woman trying to lose those last 5 pounds. At that point she really should not be in much of a calorie deficit at all, but instead be doing as much aerobic activity as time allows.

I've met vegetarians that stayed skinny as a rail without eating any animal protein and precious little vegetable protein, but they must have been blessed with the right genes. The literature does seem to indicate higher rates of digestive issues for red meat eaters especially grilled meat so maybe some of these vegetable protein sources along with more fish would be advisable. If you do a lot of aerobic exercise those sources of protein that are easier to digest are naturally favored alternatives anyways. Thanks for the tips about casein and hemp protein, I may even try some soy if it doesn't give me man tits.

Meat is what made us what we are today. The nutrients found in meat is what started the growth of the brain in early hominins. Without it we wouldn't be as smart as what we are today.

i thought opposable thumbs and walking upright got us to this point.
or the annunaki.

Originally posted by Ong Bak
i thought opposable thumbs and walking upright got us to this point.
or the annunaki.

Apart from the fact you have ignored everything people have said and refuse to reply (because you can't as you know your original premise is wrong) you also seem to be unaware of the popular theories regarding human brain development. It is thought that the eating of meat gave us the concentrated source of energy needed to reduce the amount of time we spent eating and so enabled us to develop our advanced brains.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
It is thought that the eating of meat gave us the concentrated source of energy needed to reduce the amount of time we spent eating and so enabled us to develop our advanced brains.

....to add to that...

Digesting cellulose and plants requires a very large digestive system. And the very large digestive system required has a high caloric demand. Therefore, when we began eating meat we didn't need all that duct work, so we lost the gut, allowing for more energy to develop our brains further. You can't have a big gut and a big brain.

Getting back to the original intent behind this thread. The OP stated that eating meat will lead to a shorter life and people have shown quite clearly that the longest lived populations seem to eat meat without any issue at all.

Therefore the original idea was simply incorrect and the way the OP continues to cling to it suggests we are arguing someone who has an entrenched ideological standpoint that cannot be shifted, just like religious extremists. Either that or we're seeing trolling in action.

i think one thing you failed to take into consideration is that its "normal" for everyone to eat meat. how can you conclude then that it would not extend ones life to not eat meat if every major population so far , with the exception of a few, have eaten meat? its easy to take teh outliers from that study who have stopped eating meat and compare them to the ones who still do within a given population, but you cant exclude that data and conclude that if they were to stop, it wouldnt benifit them.
so a certain group of meat eaters is the longest lived of all the groups of meat eaters, thats not to say if they decided to stop they wouldnt live an extra few years ( which they would).
its a fact taht meat rots when not refrigerated or frozen in any envioronment, your ailmentary canal is no exception.
its a fact that all commercailly raised meat is treated with chemicals and hormones
its a fact that all meat contains bacteria and parasites
you can argue taht there are benifits to eating meat, which i disagree with, but its at least a valid arguemnt insomuchas there is protien there, but its equally as true it does contain alot of harmful stuff that will shorten ones life span.

Originally posted by Ong Bak
i think one thing you failed to take into consideration is that its "normal" for everyone to eat meat. how can you conclude then that it would not extend ones life to not eat meat if every major population so far , with the exception of a few, have eaten meat? its easy to take teh outliers from that study who have stopped eating meat and compare them to the ones who still do within a given population, but you cant exclude that data and conclude that if they were to stop, it wouldnt benifit them.
so a certain group of meat eaters is the longest lived of all the groups of meat eaters, thats not to say if they decided to stop they wouldnt live an extra few years ( which they would).

Actually across the study you will find small pockets of people who either eat virtually no meat or simply no meat and they don't live longer than the other Okinawans. If you're going to make statements you need something behind them, you are just speculating and the evidence is actually against you.

Originally posted by Ong Bak
its a fact taht meat rots when not refrigerated or frozen in any envioronment, your ailmentary canal is no exception.

It is a fact that when apples are not refrigerated they rot in any environment, you didn't think that point through did you? Oh and your alimentary canal is quite different from food being outside the body. After washing around your mouth the first thing food encounters is a large qunatity of hydrochloric acid which pretty much prevents rot. The food is broken down to a sludge and passes through a healthy human within 2-6 hours. By that time much of it has been absorbed, there isn't time for rot.

Originally posted by Ong Bak
its a fact that all commercailly raised meat is treated with chemicals and hormones

Apart from the organic stuff of course.

Originally posted by Ong Bak
its a fact that all meat contains bacteria and parasites

Vegetables also contain bacteria, as for parasites, well most meat doesn't have them but the meat that does sees the parasites being destroyed in cooking (as long as the meat is well done). The problem with parasites revolves around meat that is cooked rare.

Originally posted by Ong Bak
you can argue taht there are benifits to eating meat, which i disagree with, but its at least a valid arguemnt insomuchas there is protien there, but its equally as true it does contain alot of harmful stuff that will shorten ones life span.

You know deadly nightshade is a plant but if you eat that you will shorten your lifespan rather considerably lol. I'm sorry but you are arguing against science and i will bring it up again, the longest lived people eat meat, there is no evidence at all that they would live longer with a vegetarian diet. These people tend to die at 100+ and die quietly in their sleep. There bodies are just to old to go on regardless of the diet they're using.

i love it!
havent you even once bothered to ask yourself why you think its a good idea to eat a corpse? doesnt it register with your brain at all its dead and decaying flesh? do you ignore the fact your feeding of a lifeless body or do you jsut not care? do the worms and bacteria not bother you or do you like the taste?

Originally posted by Ong Bak
i love it!
havent you even once bothered to ask yourself why you think its a good idea to eat a corpse? doesnt it register with your brain at all its dead and decaying flesh? do you ignore the fact your feeding of a lifeless body or do you jsut not care? do the worms and bacteria not bother you or do you like the taste?

Thank you. Thank you for admitting that, to you, the data is irrelevant. Your justification for not eating meat is morally driven. A more appropriate title for this thread would have been "Meat = Murder"

Run along now. The adults are trying to have an objective conversation.