Jesus = God? Let's debate..

How many Christians on this message board believe that Jesus was the son of God and God at the same time.

There are many places in the Bible which contradict that belief.

We all know about the "I and the Father are One.", and "If you see me you see the father." but what about the following..




"Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." - Mark 10:18

"I do nothing of myself." - John 8:28

"No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known." - John 1:18

"And the father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form." - John 5:37

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." - Matthew 7:21

"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent me." - John 6:38

"My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me." - John 7:16

"I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him." - John 13:16

"My doctrine are not Mine, but His who sent Me." - John 7:16

"My Father is greater than I." - John 14:28


Let's debate..

ahh welcome to last week or month. i posted this kind of post some time ago. but rock on lets go at it again. i WITHOUT A DOUBT believe Jesus is God in human form.... i can never be moved from that belief no matter what anyone says. Jesus has manifested himself to me as such after i sincerely asked God to reveal to me the truth about him. So thats about as stable as you can get on a belief.

Anyways.. in regards to the suppose "contradictions" you posted...


you have to understand that Jesus came for a number of reasons.
you also have to understand that Jesus while... fully God is also fully human. Sometimes he spoke on the human level to communicate with us on our level on how to communicate with God. Conversly sometimes he spoke on Gods level. This is why you have a "why have thou forsaken me" when he was on the cross speaking to the father... his human side was speaking... and this is why you have "I and the father are one"... making him on par with God... which one in there right mind has claimed. This is why you see a contradiction... because in a "linear" sense it doesnt make sense. But if you stand back and look at it from a "circular" perspective then you can begin to understand a bit more... doesnt mean you have to agree though. Regardless of all the interllectual mumbo jumbo that people like to spew out in debate..... Jesus is God incarnate to me not just intellectually but also in heart. Thats something that cant be shaken. EVER.

good debate though...for the sake of debate i guess.


rock it



[Edited on 15-3-2003 by krossfyter]

Originally posted by krossfyter
ahh welcome to last month. i posted this kind of post some time ago. but rock on lets go at it again. i WITHOUT A DOUBT believe Jesus is God in human form.... i can never be moved from that belief no matter what anyone says. Jesus has manifested himself to me as such after i sincerely asked God to reveal to me the truth about him. So thats about as stable as you can get on a belief.

Anyways.. in regards to the suppose "contradictions" you posted...


you have to understand that Jesus came for a number of reasons.
you also have to understand that Jesus while... fully God is also fully human. Sometimes he spoke on the human level to communicate with us on our level on how to communicate with God. Conversly sometimes he spoke on Gods level. This is why you have a "why have thou forsaken me" when he was on the cross speaking to the father... his human side was speaking... and this is why you have "I and the father are one"... making him on par with God... which one in there right mind has claimed. This is why you see a contradiction... because in a "linear" sense it doesnt make sense. But if you stand back and look at it from a "circular" perspective then you can begin to understand a bit more... doesnt mean you have to agree though. Regardless of all the interllectual mumbo jumbo that people like to spew out in debate..... Jesus is God incarnate to me not just intellectually but also in heart. Thats something that cant be shaken. EVER.

good debate though...for the sake of debate i guess.


rock it

You are contradicting yourself.

"sometimes he spoke on Gods level" ? Clearly you are separating him from God.

"you also have to understand that Jesus while... fully God is also fully human." Based on what?

It seems to me that you are looking at it the linear way.

"sometimes he spoke on Gods level"

You are separating Jesus from God by saying that.

Seems to me if you say "sometimes he spoke on Gods level" that God was working through him.

i guess for you to get close to understanding this you have to understand the trinity concept. if you think linear its hard for anyone to grasp the trinity. and no im not thinking linear... perhaps my lack of skill in explaining what im thinking doesnt do any justice to anything and perhaps it seems linear to you. regardless... if you cant simply begin in trying to comrhend the trinity on the surface... it would be hard for you to understand the Truth about Jesus.

while fully God he is also fully human. Why do people like to limit GOd? Why cant he come down on the human level to speak to us on our level and yet remain fully God?????? Seems like if you dont like to begin to belief that or dont want to or whatever.. you are limiting God.
nothings impossible for God. why do people think this is to impossible for him? heck man... its more logical to put your trust in someone whos been through the same pains you have been through.. why must God be so lofty? why cant he be personal? i understand you may never believe in Jesus as God incarnate but you must at least reconginze my perspective because its legit... im not alone in this belief. if you want to really debate about this and get into it at least understand this perspective and respect it... you dont have to believe in it. i dont agree with your perspective but i do respect it.




[Edited on 15-3-2003 by krossfyter]

I belive that God is Jesus but in human form born through the Virgin Mary. I also think that God gave Jesus his own mind which is why he prayed to God, and called him Father. Jesus is our salvation. Its as simple as that.

Originally posted by krossfyter
i guess for you to get close to understanding this you have to understand the trinity concept. if you think linear its hard for anyone to grasp the trinity. and no im not thinking linear... perhaps my lack of skill in explaining what im thinking doesnt do any justice to anything and perhaps it seems linear to you. regardless... if you cant simply begin in trying to comrhend the trinity on the surface... it would be hard for you to understand the Truth about Jesus.

while fully God he is also fully human. Why do people like to limit GOd? Why cant he come down on the human level to speak to us on our level and yet remain fully God?????? Seems like if you dont like to begin to belief that or dont want to or whatever.. you are limiting God.
nothings impossible for God. why do people think this is to impossible for him? heck man... its more logical to put your trust in someone whos been through the same pains you have been through.. why must God be so lofty? why cant he be personal? i understand you may never believe in Jesus as God incarnate but you must at least reconginze my perspective because its legit... im not alone in this belief. if you want to really debate about this and get into it at least understand this perspective and respect it... you dont have to believe in it. i dont agree with your perspective but i do respect it.




[Edited on 15-3-2003 by krossfyter]

In other words, your belief is based on nothing.

I have yet to see Jesus speak of the "Holy Trinity" in the bible.

Originally posted by CHAVEZ

In other words, your belief is based on nothing.

uh no. if thats your relative subjective view then so be it. but i know my belief is based on solid logic and biblical understanding of scripture.



study the multidimensional aspect of God.


hey if you like to keep God in 1 dimension (humans time dimesnion) then so be it its your fault buddy.


but dont say i didnt tell ya.


lol

Originally posted by CHAVEZ
I have yet to see Jesus speak of the "Holy Trinity" in the bible.

i have yet to see Jesus say the Trinty is not true or that He is not God incarnate.



so whats your point?!


lol

every one of these contradictions can be easily understood.

Ill give one example.

John 14:28


"" my father is greater than i ""

he said this because he came as aa servant, he showed his obedience to his father, he wanted to show the apostles
that is is taking the form of a servant out of love.


as we see in..

Philippians 2:6 we see the answer to john 14;28


Philippians 2:6

"" Who being in the (form) of (god), thought it not (robbery) to be equal with god: But emptied himself,
(taking) the form of a (servant), being made in the likeness of men, and in (habit) found as a man. That in the name of jesus should every man
bow, of those that are in (heaven) and on earth ""

How come also it says in scripture..

"" i and the father are one ""


your contradictions are the lack of reading scripture entirely just to deny that which must be denied.


i could do the rest for every single contradiction you gave, but you should get the point.


I hope this helps, peace.

don't you all find it kind of weird that the trinity concept was put together 600 years after Jesus death and the bible was "translated" 1000 years after his death. Also the bible was "translated" by king james who was a rapist of women and little boys. He also used to kill people like priest just because he was having a bad day. When the bible was translated they didn't use common english. They used engilsh the was only spoken by people in a certian class. It was bad enough that the people of theat time couldn't read but to do this show me that they didn't want the common man to know the truth

also jesus later teaching said that you didn't need a church to worship God. You temple is your body and soul. The truth will set you free. Plus the name Jesus Christ was his title not his name so if you really think that he is God wouldn't you ant to call him by hisreal name to have more of a relationship with him.

Also answer this... Since Jesus is dead where di his sprit go. They say on the right hand of the father. So are there two or three seperate entitys that are supposed to be God. Come on man God gave every man the right of reason. However some people just wnat to be told than rather go out and find the truth out for you self. Study the history of christanity and you will see that it has been courrpted form it true beginings.

Jesus wasn't trying to teach a religion.. He was trying to teach a way of life. How one must be humble to our Loard God and no others should be worshiped but he because he is the only true God.

Chavez, your inability to comprehend what Christ meant when he responded by saying "Why do you call Me good" or any of the other verses, does not change what is.

You want ne debate, you want an argument, and it is forbidden that a Christian argue the Bible by the Bible.

Accept, deny, your choice as with every other choice. Choices have consequences and payments. I hope you choose the right answer.

[Edited on 16-3-2003 by Java]

FATHER! WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME!!!!!!!!!!!

i rest my case.

LOL the points I posted are correct, it's just that truth hurts so much.

"I, even I, am Yahweh. Beside me there is no savior." - Isaiah 43:11

[Edited on 16-3-2003 by CHAVEZ]

welcome to knock the door CHAVEZ
nowaday it is easily the teaching of jesus being manipulated by people who demanded their name to be remembered by every generation.so when we wake up
later we are already in this person system,that person design all the system right form the start.
and now we scraching with each other just because of one man evil system.christianity is just a transformation
from the ancient roman religion,jesus never ever teach
what now a day people do in their everyday life.infact they are hatred with each other

the bible does not contradict itself

God came down here as Christ. He was here in the FLESH! He sent his son, as a regular man, so that the people could relate to him. He was a regular worker. A citizen, paid his dues. He was here to explain that we must be children. Children notice things very well of intrest. Jesus made it intresting with parables so that we can understand. Some people on this board try way too much to show they are educated then lose out on the point. Jesus did not do that. He maid it simple.