Dispelling Myths About Muslims

reply to post by Byrd

Oh, I agree, the same is definitely true of Christianity. Unlike yourself (I think ), my interest in comparative theology is merely a hobby. I'm slowly picking up a bit of hebrew, but that is about it. The thing with me, however, is that I'm not Christian (at least in the traditional sense), and my reasoning for not being is fairly straightforward, and not really changing depending on how you read the Bible, or whether you have the original language or not. So aside from some historical interest, I feel no need to delve into the semantics. So...maybe I've got some of that "pure laziness", but I'd like to think that the tradition of silliness does not apply to me .


reply to post by Mobius1974

They use water, and their hands, yeah. They are pretty anal (pun intended ) about washing their hands after, though. Also, it isn't something restricted to muslims, it is mostly cultural. Muslims in western countries, for example, use the toilet paper, and then even hindus and buddhists in places like India or Sri Lanka use their hands/water. The squat toilets are also more in use on that side of the world. Not sure what this has to do about muslim myths, though .

I personally think water works much better than toilet paper. When travelling, I'm always more comfortable knowing that the place I'm staying at has a bidet.


reply to post by Maslo

There are many muslim protests all over the world against these issues. But still, this argument pops up a lot, and I don't get it. How (and why) is a person who calls themselves muslim responsible for the actions of another who also calls themselves muslim? When was the last time you (assuming you are christian) protested against the NLF of Tripura? Or the violence in Northern Ireland (which is still happening)? Or the Lords Resistance Army? Or the Westboro Baptist Church? Or against anti-abortionist bombings?

If someone asks you, you'd obviously say that you completely and totally condemn them, and that they aren't "real christians" (muslims would say the same about their co-religionists who partake in such activities), but when was the last time you participated in a protest against them?

[edit on 8-9-2010 by babloyi]

reply to post by babloyi

When was the last time you (assuming you are christian) protested against the NLF of Tripura? Or the violence in Northern Ireland (which is still happening)? Or the Lords Resistance Army? Or the Westboro Baptist Church? Or against anti-abortionist bombings?

I am an atheist. I would go on a protest, but there are none around here, our religious people are quite peaceful, so there is no need to. Protests against Westboro baptist church are quite common, and there were some against violence in northern Ireland, too.

en.wikipedia.org...
www2.timesdispatch.com...

www.guardian.co.uk...
www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk...

Maybe peaceful muslims are protesting, but our media does not inform us properly? Or they just cannot organize themselves / are too lazy? Anyway, I am sure that if peaceful muslims would be heard, there would be far less negative sentiments against their religion.

reply to post by Maslo

I realise there are protests against the WBC and the violence in Ireland. Just as there are protests (by muslims) against terrorism in the name of Islam. I meant you PERSONALLY (assuming you were a christian) protesting against Christians who use their faith to justify violence.

I do not know why this isn't bigger news. Perhaps, as you say, the MSM is ignoring it, in favour of more inflammatory stories.

Did you know that EVERY "muslim country" leader condemned the September 11th attacks unequivocally, except perhaps Saddam who said something along the lines of "the american cowboys are reaping what they sowed" (although later, even he offered sympathy to the victims)? Did you know that a huge rally held a candle-light vigil with a minute's silence in Iran? Even the Taliban condemned the attacks!

..Or did you only know about the (very suspect) "celebrations" in Palestine?


You can thank the MSM for that .

[edit on 8-9-2010 by babloyi]

The problem here is not what myths there are about Muslims the problem is the refusal to robustly disown their own 'people'. By this I mean the extremists, sadly as I know from my in-laws it's extremely difficult to get a normal moderate Muslim to disown the very people who make them so unpopular. They are tied to this law that they cannot judge a fellow Muslim and very few dare to practice otherwise.

My mother in law is a very Western moderate Muslim woman, she's 72, I've been married to her daughter for 29yrs and I am both Non Religious and a white male, she had no issues at all with me nor did her family, in fact we all get on brilliantly with the exception of my now ex brother in law who was an extremist from Algeria, his viewpoints were exactly those that you hear regarding the worst side of whats known as Extremist Muslims, what annoys is these people actually do not follow their religion and technically should not be classed as Muslims but no one bats an eyelid so they pollute the who religion.

For me, that's the real issue, those are the people I fear and with good reason, but I feel a disgust that so called moderates will not exorcise this cancerous growth from their ranks. These who follow this Sharia law and are quite happy to stone people to death for incredulous claims of adultery are not correct Muslims, they are following man made judgments and laws yet all I can get out of my in law is that these people will be judged when it's their time.

Try making the girl waist deep in the ground who has done nothing and is about to be stoned to death feel better for that, this is the moderate side of the Muslim religion I fear, the side that follows blindly even if it knows what is going on is wrong.

So yes, there are many 'myths' out there but there are also some awful truths that make the Muslim religion a force for fear.

Perhaps this says more than I can, made by a now Ex Muslim woman...

reply to post by Mclaneinc


What ????? Is the problem?? Those "men" just wanted to play catch... Is it their fault that she was awful at playing catch? I do not think so... Who the hell burys themselves in a hole to play catch anyway??

I do feel awfully bad though... We should contact the MLB and get a couple thousand balls sent over there.. they keep using those rocks and someone is going to get an eye knocked out.

reply to post by Mclaneinc


I bet you didn't bother to do some more researches about the death stone penalty, do you?
That's video is heartbroken. I feel sorry for the 'victim' but the truth implied by the video is too good to be true.
My advice, next time you see anything like this, please please do a little more researches and please do not read too much gnostic writings to refer to what's actual Bible is. Now allow me to explain since no one else come forward to do so which left me wonder what happen to Muslim scholar now days.

Before I begin, I wish to remind you that I am human and my knowledge is limited due to my poor nature. Any statement I made here may subjected to error. Kindly pardon me if I do not aware of such mistakes.

Adultery is a very serious crime. It's unpardonable sin of SHIRK. Those who commit adultery is subjected to death penalty. The truth about the video is only to serve one purpose. To justify adultery. Well, you might condemn such penalty as barbaric. Oh I do agree for you therefore, let refer to what scholars have to say.

The Act of Stoning to Death

An individual or an organized body that has the power and authority to dispense justice and knowingly refuses to pronounce judgment based upon the Divinely Ordained Laws of Allah that are duly prescribed in the Qur'an, and by design opts to convict anyone on the bases of the prophetic traditions has knowingly committed the unpardonable sin of SHIRK. That entity has meaningfully placed "Sunnat ur Rasool" (The Law of the Prophet), over and above "Sunnat ul 'llah" (The Law of Allah).

Introduction...

In the month of October 2001, a Nigerian Muslimah -- Safiya Hussaini, was sentenced to death by an Islamic Sharia Court. On March 25, 2002 that sentence was overturned on a technical ground, by an Islamic Appeal Court of Sokoto, Northern Nigeria. The appeal judges ruled that the act of adultery had taken place before it had been made illegal under the Sharia Laws. In the nearby State of Katsina, another Nigerian woman has recently been sentenced to be stoned for adultery. It is a sacred duty of every believing Muslim and Muslimah to lodge strong protests and make every effort to see that this fundamentally flawed and basically unIslamic sentencing of 'Stoning to Death' is banned and made illegal within the Islamic Ummah, throughout the world.

Allah's Supreme Law, in Sura An-Nur (24):
All translations are by Abdullah Yusuf Ali

24: 1 A Sura which We have sent down and which We have ordained: In it have We sent down Clear Signs, in order that ye may receive admonition.
24: 2 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or
fornication, -- flog each of them with a hundred stripes; Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: And let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

Note: Allah (s.w.t.) knows the past and the future. The opening verse clearly states that Allah has Himself ORDAINED the Clear Signs in this Sura Nur, so that we may receive the CAUTION and WARNING (admonition) from it. In the next verse it is Revealed that "if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day" then carry out the penalty PRESCRIBED BY HIM for the sin of adultery or fornication. Please note precisely that Yusuf Ali has clearly mentioned both "adultery" and "fornication" in his translation. One may also bear in mind that there is not a single verse within the revealed verses of the Qur'an wherein the penalty of "Stoning to Death" (Penalty of Rajam) is prescribed by Allah, for any crime or sin.
ORIGINAL commentary by Abdullah Yusuf Ali for verse 24: 2:

Zina includes sexual intercourse between a man and a woman not married to each other. It therefore applies both to adultery (which implies that one or both of the parties are married to a person or persons other than the ones concerned) and to fornication, which, in its strict signification, implies that both parties are unmarried. The law of marriage and divorce is made easy in Islam, so that there may be the less temptation for intercourse outside the well-defined incidents of marriage. This makes for greater self-respect for both man and woman. Other sex offences are also punishable, but this Section applies strictly to Zina as above defined. (end of the original commentary).
Here is the SUPERFLUOUS TEXT added to the above commentary by The Presidency of Islamic Researches, IFTA, Call and Guidance, Saudi Arabia, in their Revised Editions:
Although zina covers both fornication and adultery, in the opinion of Muslim jurists, the punishment laid down here applies only to unmarried persons. As for married persons, their punishment, according to the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace be on him), is stoning to death.
A DECEPTION: There is no mention that the above superfluous text has not been authored by Yusuf Ali and the added text has been added later on by the publishers. A reader who does not have the original edition for comparison would understand in good faith that the text for "stoning to death" was also written by the translator Late Abdullah Yusuf Ali.

Here's another interesting view; The Stoning Punishment Contradicts Qur’an Legislation and Islam

There you go. I hope I have clear your video myth. Be cautious, adultery is unpardonable sin.

reply to post by EasternShadow



Whoah, lets not get to tied up in rhetoric, it's a simple fact that woman do get stoned and it's done in the name of the sharia law which is then touted as part of the religion. It's also true that what is decided to be adultery is decided by MEN. I'm sorry but if you are in any way trying to trivialize the disgusting nature of the treatment of women in some of these countries then I'm a tad shocked.

Do you think it's just by chance that it's been decreed that men when it comes to women are easy to deceive and therefore cannot be blamed if he has relations with her married or not. The man is the leader of the family, the woman must obey him but if this same ultra strong figure gets a bit weak at the knees or fancies some sex then it's the womans fault.

All that poem signifies is the terrible fear women feel about what can be decided did happen by men.


There's no myth re the treatment of women, sadly it's one of the most destructive things that the West see and moderates should seek to address this very much more widely without just following orders from Saudi.

As I have said already, it needs the Moderates to out those that are radical, they simply MUST out them and denounce them or they stand quite rightly to be lumped together as one and the same. If this can happen then there's no reason that people of all or no faith cannot co exist.

This can never happen while radicals are pussy footed to by the West, it will be their undoing..

reply to post by Mclaneinc


Yes you are probably right. But the way I see it, adultery is a crime which has the same degree as murder. I'm not blaming women only. Both men and women are equally wrong. It has been this way since Torah. But Koran never invent stoning penalty. There's no passage in Koran that advocate the act of stoning if you read my links. Anyway, It's not that simple to judge adultery as you think. We do understand it's difficult to define adultery. therefore, proper definition has been outline as shown by my links. The criminal(s) are given chance to defend themselves by trial. There must be enough witnesses. At least 3 adult witnesses, if I'm not wrong. The criminals are also have the chance to plead. Not all guilty criminals end up death sentences. Iran for example has been known to be strict with this kind of law. But even they are less likely to impose such death penalty. More likely the criminals are lashed 99 times instead. This is how it should be conducted. However, Some urban people might still hold old traditions and decided to act on their own by dragging the victim to street and stoning her to death. This is exactly what you see in the video. In this case those people are committing murder by Sharia point of view.

Bottom line is, if you don't commit adultery in Islam countries especially in Iran, then this is not an issue at all. I don't see why adultery could greatly affect your daily life anyway. It's still one of the biggest sin according to 10 commandments and Koran. If you can not compromise with what's already been written there and learn to respect then there is nothing I can do to make you understand. Not everyone subscribed to the idea of free sex. Not everyone subscribe to atheist.Just because the West advocate free sex that doesn't mean whole world has to do the same. Accept this and learn. It could save your life.

The truth about Muslims, at least in my humble opinion, is that they are people. They are subject to the same faults and perfections that all other humans are. The unfortunate reality is that the Islamic world is far poorer than its Western counterparts and has some cultural mindsets that are ingrained due to a non-secularized society, which is a situation that can easily foster extremism.

Good thread, you get a flag

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


The Muslim world is unfortunate for having to split into 2 branches Sunni and Shia. The Sunni's and Shia still hold grudge with each others. As you are well aware, both Sunni and Shia don't share the same view of spiritual studies and law. It's difficult to solve this problem as it's passed down generation over generation. What might agreeable to Shia world might not be accepted by Sunni. Pretty much like Catholics vs Anglican vs Orthodox vs Protestant etc.. Therefore, what's happen in Shia's countries are usually less likely to get serious attention by Sunni. The tension mainly arise in Middle East. Other part of the world seem to be contend with Sunni principles. Which explain why 'moderate' Sunni are inclined to meddle 'radical' Shia.

It is He (Allah) who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth, to show that it is above all other religions, however much the idolaters may hate this. (Qur'an 9:38)

If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost. (Quran 3.085)

These are the very words of Allah.
Islam can only stop fighting when everybody has submitted to Allah.
Terrorists and extremists do not work under the guise of Islam, They exist because of Islam.

The idea that Islam is a “peaceful religion hijacked by extremists” is a dangerous fantasy--and it is now a particularly dangerous fantasy for people to indulge.

www.huffingtonpost.com...

All the best.

reply to post by Ersatz


Islam exist more than a thousand years ago. Terrorism exist barely a decade. Islam exist because of Christianity. If bible was properly written, Islam probably don't exist. Torah Law only made for Jews. Despite many believe, Islam was accepted peacefully by Southern and Western China and South East Asian countries through trading. Terrorism exist because of George Bush foreign policy. If George Bush didn't fund terrorist and invade Afghanistan, 9-11 would have not occur. There was no history of foreign attack on US soil before. But even so, I cast doubt on Commission Report because Commission Chairman and Vice Chairman themselves believe is was set up. So basically, your idea of terrorism exist because of Islam is either.

a.) nothing else than an assumption base on dubious sources ( hearsay ). OR
b.) attempt to defame/slander Islam.

I am not sure what you are talking about...what G. Bush has done, how the Bible is written etc.. are "non sequitur" in the sense that two wrongs do not make a right.

I know of no other large religious group (Hindu, Christian, Buddhist) where its members strap a bomb to themselves and indiscriminately seek to murder innocent people.

The Quran is a "hate book", it contains many instructions to hate non Muslims, since 9/11 over 16000 documented deadly terrorists attacks have been carried out by Muslims in the name of Allah.
www.thereligionofpeace.com...

Islam is obviously NOT a religion of peace, wherever there is Islam, there is the potential for intolerance and violence justified by religion.

Islam degrades women by assuming that they are responsible for the lust in men, that they must be hidden, covered, and prevented from full participation in society. This is evil.

Islam practices whipping people, stoning to death, chopping hands and feet. These are barbaric practices.

It is all indefensible and cannot belong to any civilized society.

All the best.

reply to post by Ersatz


Obviously, you only read what you want to believe, do you? Have you study history of suicide attack? Do you know who invent it first? Do you know, since 1987, Tamil Tigers have been reported to carry out more than 150 of modern day suicide bombing? I bet you don't bother to check on it and I bet you didn't even bother to read OP.

Stone to death? Did you even bother to read my post above?

And the rest of your deceit comment about strict penalties imposed by Sharia Law is no other than attempt to compromise what's illegals such stealing, gambling etc.. And yes, alcohol is forbidden. It's the same manner that been have outlined by Civil Law that drinking while driving is dangerous. So does it evil too?

Your comment on women being treated badly by Islam is funny. I was wondering if you know anything about thousands of women been burned alive for 'witchcraft' throughout Christianity history. But I guess you don't want to believe it because it's much easy to see Islam as evil.

What's Islam trying to protect is women getting raped by men and you see it as evil? If you don't believe in covering your own honor, be my guess to go naked in public, we'll see how many men do not not turn their lustful eyes to your naked body. This is not about self confidence in women perceptive for exposing their skin. It's about trying to minimize rape problem caused by men.

If you have no interest to read what's actually Islam, please do not slander things that you know nothing of or you can be considered as violating forum T & C ethics. If you do not understand please ask.

Thanks you for your time

Originally posted by EasternShadow

Stone to death? Did you even bother to read my post above?

What you said in your earlier post is neither clever nor accurate.

Originally posted by EasternShadow
Your comment on women being treated badly by Islam is funny. I was wondering if you know anything about thousands of women been burned alive for 'witchcraft' throughout Christianity history. But I guess you don't want to believe it because it's much easy to see Islam as evil.

Please find out what a "tu-quoque" logical fallacy is :
www.logicalfallacies.info...

There is no ambiguity in the Qur’an, the life of Muhammad, or Islamic law as to the inferiority of women to men, despite your string of lies.

Originally posted by EasternShadow

If you have no interest to read what's actually Islam, please do not slander things that you know nothing of or you can be considered as violating forum T & C ethics. If you do not understand please ask.

I know perfectly well what Islam is, there is no need to ask someone doing Da'wah.

Debating people with your level of intellectual sophistication is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon - it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory.

On that note, I will respectfully bow out of the discussion as I can only see more rubbish coming from your quarters. Feel free to have the last word if you must.

Wslm.

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap

Notice that all your examples are 'used to'. You are taking things from hundreds and even a thousand years ago.
Most of those religions have grown up a bit since then. Can you say the same for Islam?

Originally posted by EasternShadow
Terrorism exist barely a decade. Terrorism exist because of George Bush foreign policy. If George Bush didn't fund terrorist and invade Afghanistan, 9-11 would have not occur.

That's soooooo wrong on so many levels ... Islam was forged in terrorism and mass murder.
Islam through the centuries
Terrorist attacks and terrorist attempts on US soil as far back as the early 1970s
US Soil List Here
Terrorist attacks by Islamics have gone on and on ...Here are some words from Islamic terrorists from around the world. Terrorists who have killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people in the name of their god
In the name of Allah


The 'religion of peace' ... 109 Qu'ran verses calling followers to violence against non-muslims

The OP wanted to bring up women's 'rights' in Islam. "Rights" .. yeah .. right ...
Veils
Women worth less then men in Islam
Women having impossible task of proving rape
Ya'll remember the Imams not too long ago giving out wife beating instructions?
Wife beating in Islam
men are in charge of women
adulterers are put to death
(but you only hear of women getting put to death ... and by stoning ... and stoned by men [/url]

And then there are the 'honor killings' and the hangings of homosexual children and the fashion police ... and the _____ ... all because of Islam.

14 year old boy lashed to death for breaking ramadan fast
Religious dissent and women in Iran
Iran curbin womens righs
Police violently disperse crowd celebrating international womens day
Iran's fashion police
13 year old girl sentenced to death for incest
gay teens executed by hanging
'unchaste' 16 year old girl executed

Originally posted by EasternShadow
it's much easy to see Islam as evil.

It IS evil. It was invented by a nutter who falsely claimed revelations from God in order to gain power over people and to feed his own lust for power and sex.

Islam went on a killing spree in order to spread and gain power. It destroyed cultures across Northern Africa and the Middle East as well as Persia. It mass murdered millions upon millions of people in the name of a false religion. It enslaved people in the name of the religion. It destroys the lives of the poor women who are subjected to it. It treats non-muslims as lower class people instead of everyone being equal human beings.

I always laugh when Islamic countries complain that the West is destroying the Islamic culture and therefore should leave. The West may be destroying Islamic culture - but not with a blood soaked sword like the Islamics did to every culture THEY destroyed over the centuries. The west does it with rock music and McDonalds .. Islam did it with swords and murder. So I don't care if Islamic cultures disappears. Being free of the chains of Islam (and organized religion in general ) would be better for the people anyways.

Islam is NOW what Christianity was 1000 years ago.
But the difference is .. Christianity has, for the most part, grown up since then.
Islam is still stuck in the year 1,000.

Islam a LIE, it mass murders, and it takes away healthy freedoms. It IS evil.

Read - "Why I am not a Muslim" by Ibn Warriq. Open your eyes. Learn truth.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Islam is NOW what Christianity was 1000 years ago. But the difference is .. Christianity has, for the most part, grown up since then. Islam is still stuck in the year 1,000.

Well said.

Which reminds me of reading about a Sufi Prince in Persia that said the following in the 13th century(if I'm correct):

"We have taken the Qu'ran, sucked out its marrow and cast the bones aside".

This was very significant in the sense that a prince of Sufis(the Kurdish Muslim) dealt with a holy book the way it is supposed to be dealt with. Take the message out of it then cast it aside as to avoid dilemmas that present themselves when old books with rules are applied to modern day. Of course this was not liked by the Arab muslims, who would much rather have their people stuck in religious doctrine.

I don't see any religious person in a powerful position doing this in this age, regardless of religion.

For evil to prevail, it is enough that good people do nothing.
No breaching of human rights should ever be tolerated on this planet by civilized nations, does not matter if the cause is religion, culture, or tradition. I even support armed intervention if it cannot be ensured peacefully (Taliban). Saying "its their society and they have a right to govern themselves" is like seeing a neighbour beating his wife and doing nothing, because it would breach the neighbours freedom. We are all neighbours on this planet. If I had it my way, I would outlaw sharia law internationally, just as genocide or other crimes against humanity are internationally outlawed, and justifiy armed intervention if practiced or even tolerated by local governments.
But with impotent UNO like it is now, we can dream.