Psychology Myths

reply to post by MischeviousElf


Ok. I just came back from running a night club and I am a little light headed to say the least but I am going to try and go through this whole Derren Brown thing as methodicaly and rationaly as I can, but forgive me if I make any spelling mistakes.

First point.
The type of NLP that you are suggestin Derren is using is not supported by a single peer reviewed scientific study, a single double blinded scientific test or anything at all anywhere in the world. The only support you have for this claim is an entertainment program on TV.

This is exactly the same as saying that humans can fly because you saw super man do it.

Second point
You say you have qualifications in NLP, what qualifications are they? how many peer reviewed papers have you published? Which accredited university did you gain these qualifications at?

Third point
Watch this interview,



Derren says the same thing at the start of every one of his shows.
"My work is a combination of, magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship

For some reason you interpret this to mean, My work is Psychology and suggestion while completely ignoring the fact that he is deliberately telling you that he is using magic and misdirection.

In fact in this interview he deliberately says that "It isn't supernatural"
But you insist on ascribing him with Supernatural powers (i.e. powers that have never been proved to exist) even though he denies them himself.

Fourth point.
Hereis a very in depth interview with Derren

Here are a few quotes from the very long interview to digest.

But when people do take a line of saying that it's not hard science, my reaction is, I've always said that. And I've always said that it's born out of magic and that it is a form of magic, but hopefully a more interesting and thought-provoking one.

Please try to absorb this

And every time a mentalist says to me, well, we don't have to tell people that it's just a movie, well, the reason we don't have to tell them is because they already know clearly,

You are suppose to be sensible enough to understand that it is a trick, that is why he doesn't have to keep telling you it's trick any more then in a Star Wars movie they don't have to flash a message on the screen every ten seconds that it is only a fictional story. Derren is counting on his audience being intelligent enough to understand that they are watching an entertainment show.

Heres the last quote that I hope you will be able to understand

I don't say that what you see is documentary footage of me using my superior psychological techniques.

So Derren himself denies the very thing that you are trying to prove with his show.

Fifth point.

I have no idea why you would bring hammering nails into your nostrils into this discussion, anyone human in the entire world can do this as long as you don;t mind the discomfort.
you just push a nail into your nasal cavity.

What bearing does that have on anything at all?


I'm sorry, but you have been duped by a magician, one that told you straight out that he was tricking you, but still you choose to believe it.

I really hope you read his interview and take it on board.




[edit on 3-9-2010 by davespanners]

[edit on 3-9-2010 by davespanners]

reply to post by davespanners


Well you are interesting, in one case you insist on sources, but then when ones that are more acceptable and used within the disciplines as I have used to refute your ones you ignore them.

Then try and use that argument in another stance.

There is no flow to your reasoning, it is as scattered as buckshot.

Who said anything about supernatural powers?

Why are you insinuating I have said things I have not?

You obviously have not seen the documentary, it is not double blind but like most experiments including the ones you use as sources single.

He uses as I said Hypnosis, suggestion etc, but subliminal images are present within that piece of work he does and also the Animal Heaven one.

At the end of each show he clearly shows how and where the subliminal messages are, from things such as children walking in front of the Taxi with the advertisers with words on their t-shirts, pubs menus changed etc etc etc.

You obviously HAVE not watched them, and if so are unable to use your "myth" stance to explain them.

Clearly in both cases he changes many peoples behavior from the norm with words and images that are placed in part of the environment they are in.

I ma sorry to have burst your bubble but nothing you have described as a myth actually is so.

The world was flat for a long time to.

Kind Regards,

Elf

Yes I have watched them I have also read his book. Did you even bother to read the interview?

The explanations that he gives at the end of the show are also part of the trick, the trick being getting people to believe that he is using psychology when in reality he is doing a classic magic trick . A trick that you have fallen for hook line and sinker and refuse to reevaluate even when Derren himself tells you that he isn't doing what you think he is.

Did you read this quote at all

I don't say that what you see is documentary footage of me using my superior psychological techniques.

But you still insist on classifying a magic show broadcast for entertainment as some kind of documentary. What better source do you want then the man himself telling you that you are wrong

I challenge you to find a single quote from Derren, on TV, Radio or in his many books where he says that his programs are "Scientific" or "Documentaries" He doesn't say it, Channel 4 doesn't say it, nobody thinks that these programs are documentaries apart from you

When Derren is asked whether he feels that he is being disingenuous by offering these psychological explanations for his tricks his answer is always that most people understand that it's just a form of entertainment and are smart enough to not go around believing something is true because one man told them about it on a magic show. I guess he is wrong.



[edit on 4-9-2010 by davespanners]

reply to post by Xcalibur254


This is one of the major downfalls of Psychology; things that are not properly understood are taught scientifically as if they are concrete facts. (No offence intended, any Psychology enthusiasts out there.) Memory is just another area where scientists exaggerate their level of knowledge and understanding by presenting the topic in a familiar structure.

[edit on 4/9/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by davespanners
Yes I have watched them I have also read his book. Did you even bother to read the interview?

His Book?

Just one?

LOl. Can show you where to get the rest of his work if you like.

The interview you are referring to is about his work in its totality, much of his stage work as said by me already is this.

Please will you then in the name of science, classify, breakdown and show proof that the explanations his gives, and breaks down part by part in both Animal Heaven and also in the Part of Controlling the World where he dresses as a beggar and makes £350 in one hour, one man even giving him his shoes, after looking at shop windows and words.

Please show me your proof these are actors.

Please show me the Magic trick aspect of that.

Please explain the disclaimer at the end of it stating that all the people involved agreed after the event and were told what had happened to allow themselves to be shown in the film.

Please explain the interviews of them afterwards.

Please explain the Advertising agents who later had an interview in the national press and corroborated every part of their experience and how it changed their view of their trade afterwards.

Hypnotism was called magnetism once does not matter what the name, same effects. You are trying to rely semantics as your argument has been proven in each case to be non valid.

Kind Regards,

Elf

reply to post by Xcalibur254

As for your problem with the Mozart Effect myth. The information you have provided is not supporting the Mozart Effect, it is simply showing that people who are relaxed learn better, which is true.

I disagree with both you and Elf here with the music and studying parallel...it has less to do the the music and relaxation and more to do with pairing stimuli.

If I were to study for let's say, a vocabulary test while listening to a Megadeth record, I could out-perform someone listening to Mozart while studying...given that I could listen to the same Megadeth record during the examination. By studying to music, and combining the subject matter with certain lyrics or phrases, I would give myself added cues upon which to retrieve the correct answers. Even if I couldn't listen to the record, as long as I had committed the songs to memory I would still have this advantage.

This affect also stands true for amphetamines. I would do better on a test I had studied for while on amps as long as I was on amps when I took the test. Studying in the same location as the test is administered in also helps. The less difference between frame of mind during prep and during test, the better the result should be.

Also, the relationship between anxiety level and test performance can be best demonstrated by a bell shaped curve. If the student is too relaxed, his/her performance will not be much different than one too anxious. The best scores will fall where anxiety is just high enough to be beneficial.

reply to post by MischeviousElf


No one said that anyone anywhere was an actor.

We were discussing your direct assertion that the Animal Heaven video proved Subliminal techniques "100%" "Case closed"

This could all very easily be solved if you could come up with one single peer reviewed study, one single bit of valid evidence, one link from a proper accredited recognized educational institution a quote from a serious book on psychology, anything at all that proves in the slightest that the subliminal techniques you claim that Derren used in the animal heaven show are real in any way shape or form (and no I am not talking about a link from some hokey NLP training school).

You can't do this because no such evidence exists, not one single serious study ever undertaken has shown it to exist, so instead you post a video of a magic show and use it as "proof" of your own personal theory.

The person in the animal heaven trick wasn't told how the trick worked, magicians don't go around telling people how their tricks work, thats what magicians are like, and thats why the guy believes it

You are the one with the theory that goes against every single scientific study ever undertaken, why don't you go find some evidence of anything at all that you are claiming.

Or better still why don't you make your own youtube video of you replicating the results Derren gets through "psychology" I'm sure it will be pretty easy for you with all of you qualifications and things.

I await your amazing results with bated breath.

Maybe you could post a video of Paul Daniels next time to prove that human beings can get cut in half and stuck back together again.



[edit on 4-9-2010 by davespanners]