Collateral Friendship!

My own thought on this is that we are simply not strong enough to be the Global Superpower or empire as we once were, especially because of all our economic and social problems here at home. I also think that we don't do "nation building" very well, and that most countries do not appreciate outsiders coming in and telling them how to run the show. They are bound to resent that after a while, just as we would, even if the intentions were "good".

Originally posted by Faustian Spirit
The question is:

WHO OPPRESSES YOU? Terrorists, right? Then why all the wrongs regarding civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan? It's too much to be called side casualties. Nope, the oppressor is the one who enters a country that, ITSELF, didn't do nothing and has to bear with you. I mean, I wonder why don't the U.S. ever think THEY are the oppressors for a change.

Hey guy,

Since you don't comprehend the context of which I made that statement, I'll spell it out for you: Terrorists are not the oppressing force I was referring to. Terrorism exists as a defense to American Imperialism. Since the US Government is run with corporate interest in mind, and those corporations have no stake in my nation, they are truly the oppressor. I believe they will come for my nation at some point and when they do I will uphold my oath to protect the Constitution from all threats foreign and domestic.

Originally posted by sapien82

I understand and appreciate your opinion on society being there for veterans who return from warzones , especially when they have been told to fight in Illegal wars , we should make sure they get the correct level of care and help to brign them to terms with whats happened to them.

One doesn't suffer from PTSD because they are in denial or unable to come to terms. PTSD is caused by experiencing so much trauma the nervous system and the mind can not cope. One is forever stuck in a warzone because the mind thinks that it has to continue to protect itself.

However do you not think its time that humanity does away with conflict even if it is a necessary evil. Armed conflict is a barbaric act which should have remained in the medievil ages. Just as humans have evolved and escaped our primal desire to hunt and kill , we should also too abandon our almost primal desire for bloodlust and battle.
A necessary evil isnt a very civilized thing to have now is it?

First, no I do not that think that is time for us to do away with conflict. I will agree when there are no longer people who wish to kill, rape, and enslave other people.

Second, I think your views on hunting are ethnocentric. I love to hunt. I take offense at you implying that I am less evolved than you because you are out of touch with your food. I also do not see abandoning hunting as good thing. Things die so that others can live and by taking that life yourself you understand and fulfill the cycle.

I do not have a 'bloodlust'. I do have a desire to remain a free man. If some one wishes me harm he had better be ready for a fight to the death.

It would be humanities next step in evolution , our technology advances us intellectually we should also help it evolve us so that we can do away with conflict. Why scientists dont invent some sort of device ( nanomachines ) to eradicate all nuclear missles and arms and ordnance I do not know

Because MAD ensures peace between nations. I'm of the opinion that it would be better for every nation to have em. Speak quietly and carry a big stick, etc etc.

Its about time this happened but no one is willing to take the first step towards disarmament .Even Unilatarel disarmament doesnt work , check out Northern Ireland.

Im still positive that armed conflict will remain with this world until we are gone. Unless some alien species decides to wipe us from this earth , then I think nothing will unite us as a species we are ultimately doomed by our own actions.

About Ireland... I agree with the IRA... Anyway, I don't think it is a good idea for anyone to disarm themselves, ever. Not nations, not people, not ever. I also don't believe in globalism.

About the 'doomed by our own actions' comment... This is why I don't think not hunting is evolving. Let the world end tomorrow, I will grab my pack and head into the mountains. Won't have a mattress but I'll do just fine.

reply to post by NeutronAvenger


Last time i checked its YOUR life u put on the line if u dont know what ur gettin into dont join...every pic u have they are weilding a gun kill a few million help a few hundred doesnt justify anything especially that the us is helping iraq

You don't need to convince me. I'm well aware of the good that our troops do. It's also important to understand that even if "our" motives were sinister, that would be no fault of the troops.

If TPTB trump up charges of "terrorism" or "weapons of mass destruction" with a more sinister agenda, that is no fault of our troops. They are in the military and don't get to pick and choose which deployments they are assigned to.

We have mere kids out there in a virtual hell. When they come home, their lives will never be the same. Their perspective of the world will be forever altered and they will never see the world through the eyes of a 20 or 21 year old again. That has been taken away from them forever.

God Bless Our Troops

GL

reply to post by AdAbsurdum

I don't understand why you would think I would think you a coward for that reason...

Most in the armed forces believe fighting for ones country is courageous, therefore I would mostly expect the opposite to be associated with the opposite of courageous.

First off, it isn't that simple. You are talking about families and children that have no other way to be fed or supported with out that pay check. It is mainly the poor that make up our Armed Forces. You also don't know if they won't end up in prison, instead.

So instead of living on a benefit I'll go destroy the lives of some families in a foreign country. Sounds like a pretty selfish reason. It's highly unlikely they'd get more than 90 days locked up.

Second off, I see a person bearing a Nation's sins to feed his family to be very brave.

Being the hand that carries out, sorry - bears, a nation's sins is brave to you?

"The greatest crimes in the world are not committed by people breaking the rules but by people following the rules. It's people who follow orders that drop bombs and massacre villages."
-Banksy

What heroes.

It takes strength to carry a Nation's secrets

I can only imagine how strong wiki leaks must be. The grunts on the ground are less informed than most of ATS.

Finally, I find it interesting that you imply that going to war is a cowards way out.

Not my intention to imply that at all. The dishonorable and selfish (for some) way out maybe..

Thanks for making my point.

I meant the members of the armed forces. It's up to them to not personally carry out the corrupt dirty work of the government.

I'm genuinely curious here because I think you are just afraid, but I could be wrong.

Thanks for asking. The reason is I enjoy the debate. I hope most people on here don't think they can actually change anything by posting.

Why are you posting? To rally public support for the troops? To convince people to take up arms against their government?

Playing the blame game on ATS isn't stopping an illegal war or innocent blood from being spilled.

You say that like your efforts are responsible for stopping the war.






[edit on 1-9-2010 by Azp420]

Wow, misconceptions abound here.

This notion that military members are "poor, uneducated with criminal records" is utter nonsense. Far too many of you on ATS just make up crap and swear by it to fit your agenda.

Census reports have shows that recruits enlisting are better educated than their civilian peers, and hail from households with a higher median income than their counterparts. This propaganda that spews from people that the 'poor' are fighting our wars just isn't truth at all.

As for the person who insists that military families are totally reliant on the military for support, that somehow they couldn't make it on the outside, what trash you speak.

You also don't know if they won't end up in prison, instead.

How dare you. I'd wager that on the whole, the men and women serving in our uniform have a far better moral compass and value system than most civilians out there today. Prison??? Get out of here with that.

Before you continue insulting the millions of people providing you the very opportunity to do so, at least study some facts.

[edit on 1-9-2010 by Gainsayer]

Originally posted by Azp420
Most in the armed forces believe fighting for ones country is courageous, therefore I would mostly expect the opposite to be associated with the opposite of courageous.

Fair enough. I don't hold that position.

So instead of living on a benefit I'll go destroy the lives of some families in a foreign country. Sounds like a pretty selfish reason. It's highly unlikely they'd get more than 90 days locked up.

And that 90 days could be enough to break that military members family. It isn't nice, but some don't have the luxury of idealism. My point wasn't to defend their decision so much as to illustrate that the issue isn't black and white.

Being the hand that carries out, sorry - bears, a nation's sins is brave to you?

"The greatest crimes in the world are not committed by people breaking the rules but by people following the rules. It's people who follow orders that drop bombs and massacre villages."
-Banksy

What heroes.

Bares, bears, wasn't sure which.... Anyway, I didn't claim they were heroes, I believe that they are human beings doing the best they can with what they got. While I do agree that it would be nice if they stood up, organizing that movement from inside the military apparatus is unrealistic.

I can only imagine how strong wiki leaks must be. The grunts on the ground are less informed than most of ATS.

That comment was a personal statement. The reason why I have issues with this Government has to do with my work in the intel community. I may be too close to that issue to debate it rationally, but if you wish we can discuss it.

I think what wikileaks is doing is amazing (assuming they aren't a honey pot, etc.). I hope that, if his goal is to force the government into having to divulge info, he is successful.

Not my intention to imply that at all. The dishonorable and selfish (for some) way out maybe..

Could be, I won't deny that. But, with out knowing each individuals situation and thinking, it is impossible to know and not right to generalize across the board. I'd like to add; In either direction, making the claim that they are all heroes deserving of our adoration is also just as false.

I meant the members of the armed forces. It's up to them to not personally carry out the corrupt dirty work of the government.

Ah, I misunderstood!

Assuming they are even aware it's dirty work... No enlisted member ever has the full picture, more often than not, you end up seeing everything as a whole months down the line in my personal experience.

Thanks for asking. The reason is I enjoy the debate. I hope most people on here don't think they can actually change anything by posting.

Excellent! I hope we can continue!

Why are you posting? To rally public support for the troops?

I post for a few reasons...

One, it gives me a chance to put my feelings and thoughts down so I can reflect on them later, critique my own positions and beliefs.

Two, I want to better understand the people around me. The internet provides a place where, thanks to it being anonymous, you tend to get a kind of truth you don't in face to face interactions. Better understanding your position on this issue, for instance, will allow me to have a better understanding of my friend's brother.

You say that like your efforts are responsible for stopping the war.

This is where my disillusionment comes in!

I have gone to group after group attempting to organize a movement to deal with some of the issues that we deal with as a society, the war being one of them. I'm talking zeitgeist, tea party, anarchists, left and right wing. All theory, no action. I believe it is because they are afraid what will happen if they don't accept silence as an answer. I think one has to accept revolution as a possibility because it may come to just that. I believe they fail to do so.

Originally posted by Gainsayer
Wow, misconceptions abound here.

This notion that military members are "poor, uneducated with criminal records" is utter nonsense. Far too many of you on ATS just make up crap and swear by it to fit your agenda.

Who made that claim? I haven't seen it....

Census reports have shows that recruits enlisting are better educated than their civilian peers, and hail from households with a higher median income than their counterparts. This propaganda that spews from people that the 'poor' are fighting our wars just isn't truth at all.

So poor people don't enlist? You claim that there are no poor people in the military?

As for the person who insists that military families are totally reliant on the military for support, that somehow they couldn't make it on the outside, what trash you speak.

I wasn't speaking in an absolute. Some can not. I know this because I served with them.

How dare you. I'd wager that on the whole, the men and women serving in our uniform have a far better moral compass and value system than most civilians out there today. Prison??? Get out of here with that.

So Levinworth is empty? You know, I did time in a correctional custody facility (military prison). I think you'd be better off rereading why I posted what I posted. If you are insubordinate you face potential prison time.

Before you continue insulting the millions of people providing you the very opportunity to do so, at least study some facts.

Yes, lets!

Fact #1, I am a disabled vet.

Fact #2, You need to reread my post in context.

reply to post by AdAbsurdum


Don't backpedal now. Funny how you claim you aren't speaking in absolutes. This is your direct quote...

First off, it isn't that simple. You are talking about families and children that have no other way to be fed or supported with out that pay check. It is mainly the poor that make up our Armed Forces. You also don't know if they won't end up in prison, instead.

I can cite several sources that show that our military is in fact NOT comprised of 'mainly poor'. I shouldn't have to though, a simple google search will suffice.

'Poor people don't enlist? Leavenworth is empty?' Of course poor people enlist, and of course there is crime in the military. These are social issues that infect every aspect of humanity. Your insinuation that our military is recruited from the poorer, and thus lesser educated ranks of society is totally false.
you were an MP though, so your claims are clearly infallible. You came way out from left field with the whole 'prison' comment. Perhaps you'd like to clear that up, or are you of the asinine opinion that our service members would turn to rampant crime without a uniform?

Well, I read your post in it's context, and you're not the only disabled vet around here. You made a claim that was false, and extremely insulting to myself and everyone else I know still wearing the uniform.

Originally posted by Gainsayer
I can cite several sources that show that our military is in fact NOT comprised of 'mainly poor'. I shouldn't have to though, a simple google search will suffice.

Look at a pay chart, those pay grades don't make em rich. They meet my definition of poor.

My "I'm not speaking in absolutes" comment was directed at:

Originally posted by Gainsayer
As for the person who insists that military families are totally reliant on the military for support, that somehow they couldn't make it on the outside, what trash you speak.

So do try to pay attention.

I also never claimed they were uneducated, you can infer that all you like, but I will not be addressing that strawman.

you were an MP though

No, I wasn't. You have quiet the imagination! Try reading it again.

Well, I read your post in it's context, and you're not the only disabled vet around here. You made a claim that was false, and extremely insulting to myself and everyone else I know still wearing the uniform.

If you want to believe that I think the people I served with are uneducated I can't stop you. It's an idiotic position, but more power to you.

Originally posted by Gainsayer
You came way out from left field with the whole 'prison' comment. Perhaps you'd like to clear that up, or are you of the asinine opinion that our service members would turn to rampant crime without a uniform?

Sure, since you lack the ability to read on a 12th grade level I'll repeat myself:
If you refuse to deploy, because you disagree with the war, you face a court-martial. That means you face potential prison time for insubordination. That statement had nothing to do with pre or post service. It had everything to do with a known fact.

So you pulled my statement out of context, attributed to me a position I don't hold, and have constructed an argument around it. That's called a strawman argument and means you feel insulted over nothing.


[edit on 1-9-2010 by AdAbsurdum]

Originally posted by Gainsayer

Before you continue insulting the millions of people providing you the very opportunity to do so, at least study some facts.

[edit on 1-9-2010 by Gainsayer]

Im sorry but those rights were secured long before anyone using the internet was born !

they arent defending your rights or anyone elses , your government are apparently there to defend your rights , the military are there to defend aggressors of the people .

Well at least thats how its supposed to go down , instead they are simply defending corporate interests and setting up governments in alligiance to the US and its foreign policies and also establishing future resource control

If you really belief that some terrorists or foreign army are really going to remove civilians rights from overseas then thats fair enough , its pretty silly to believe that but fine.
Only an all out invasion by an armed force , or revolution in america , or its slipping into a facist police state will harm your rights.

So please spare us the defending your rights nonsense.

Originally posted by AdAbsurdum

Originally posted by Gainsayer
I can cite several sources that show that our military is in fact NOT comprised of 'mainly poor'. I shouldn't have to though, a simple google search will suffice.

Look at a pay chart, those pay grades don't make em rich. They meet my definition of poor.
[edit on 1-9-2010 by AdAbsurdum]

Refuse collectors in the UK have higher wage brackets than soldiers starting in the UK armed forces

Students in UK universities probably recieve more funding than a basic soldiers annual salary

Your definition of poor is irrelevant. I suppose the whole world should adjust to your definitions.
And yes, you did infer they were uneducated. Poverty and and a lack of education are joined at the hip. Next you'll tell me 'uneducated by your definition' right?
Of course I only have a '12th grade reading level', someone as presumptuous as you clearly knows as much. I would sit and debate more, but you'll just blow more smoke into the argument. You stated the military was comprised of mainly 'the poor'. It isn't.

[edit on 1-9-2010 by Gainsayer]

[edit on 1-9-2010 by Gainsayer]

Originally posted by Gainsayer
Your
And yes, you did infer they were uneducated.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.... I can't infer anything from my own statement....

Poverty and and a lack of education are joined at the hip. Next you'll tell me 'uneducated by your definition' right?

Impoverished and poor are too different things to me. One can be well educated and still be poor, look at newly graduated college students.

Of course I only have a '12th grade reading level', someone as presumptuous as you clearly knows as much. I would sit and debate more, but you'll just blow more smoke into the argument. You stated the military was comprised of mainly 'the poor'. It isn't.

Excellent! I'm glad you are done wasting everyone's time with your 'debate skillz'.

reply to post by sapien82


Thank you!

I am in agreement with both your posts! Never thought I'd get back-up from your corner though!

Thanks.

[edit on 1-9-2010 by AdAbsurdum]

reply to post by AdAbsurdum

And that 90 days could be enough to break that military members family.

Not as much as the permanently broken families in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I just don't think anybody should be able to so easily escape accountability for their actions. If an organized crime family hired a gunman who carried out their orders and killed some people, he would not be able to just shift the blame up the chain of command or expect the unconditional support of the public because he was just doing his job. The whole support the troops but not the war which is so common seems rather irrational and in the end indirectly supports the war. If public opinion was that these troops were hired guns willingly carrying out the governments murderous crimes I would bet there would be huge shortages of troops.

That comment was a personal statement. The reason why I have issues with this Government has to do with my work in the intel community. I may be too close to that issue to debate it rationally, but if you wish we can discuss it.

I'm interested. Have you got some dirt? Are you going to be whistle blowing?

Assuming they are even aware it's dirty work...

I agree. How can so many people be prepared to go and fight and kill for a cause they have not even done a bit of research on?

I post for a few reasons...

Thank you for sharing, those are some fantastic reasons. Now that I read them I realise they have been subconsciously reasons why I post too.

I think one has to accept revolution as a possibility because it may come to just that. I believe they fail to do so.

The concept of revolution is fascinating, but I think with the era we are in the technology the civilians can obtain versus the technology the government has access to is too great. Any group with the numbers required and a plan would get busted and held as terrorists before a single shot was fired. If not, civilian weaponry would be easily overwhelmed by the military. I'd also say it would be next to impossible for a revolutionary group to gain the control and support of the military.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
I ask you.

Why do they always send the poor?

Sorry to rain on your gay-day parade, but do you always believe the hype?

Do you honestly buy into the BS that the military is filled only with poor stupid people? I guess you think that all blacks are car thieves and play basketball, and Asians can't drive and have a camera fetish.

Originally posted by spookfish
I think it's about time there was a 'pro US military and Government foreign policy' forum for all of you to post in. Then at least the rest of us could get down to reasonably discussing the truth without all the threads getting bogged down by gung ho 'I hate my government but love what my military is doing' type members.

Sure, have your delusions about the US being a force for good in the world but go have them in some quite corner of the board away from the rest of us who have used their passports and have some understanding of how the world really is.

Jesus, Mary and Joseph. You really are full of yourself, aren't you? "Reasonably discussing the truth" "the rest of us who have used their passports". "Understand of how the world really is"

Take a pill and get over yourself.

Gus, I've been in combat (yes, I can hear you now, "War criminal!"). I've also sat down with local nationals in the AOR and discussed problems they were having and solved them. Have you??

I've trained with and worked with NATO Forces. When they were German military, I worked in their language. I've briefed senior officers and rooms filled with PhDs.

But you "understand how the world really is".

Originally posted by spookfish
If you polled the entire world's population, over 6 billion would say that the US on balance does more evil than good and that much of that is done by US soldiers following evil, unjust, illegal and immoral orders.

Yeah, right.

Originally posted by earthdude
It makes me really sad to think that a few pictures are supposed to nullify the horrible mistakes made by sending our troops to fight for oil. It makes me even sadder to think that people justify this war. "ok kids, after the seesaw ride line up for re-education or execution."

Yeah, your're right. Because that's all US Soldiers do, kill kids. Or re-educate them.

What sort of BS propaganda are you falling for? So much for deny ignorance.

You know, the crap I'm reading here really makes me laugh. People that have never been in the military (because they are too smart :lol love to get on their high horse and pass judgment on those that are serving.

I read all the ignorant cliches on ATS. And what's funny is the posters that are spewing them all claim to be smart, "in the know", not falling for the "lying propaganda of the MSM or the Government".

Yeah, right.