Ron Paul Defends NYC Mosque

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I took skull_bones' statement to mean that even though he disagrees with someone, he can support their rights. And I applaud him for that. I have said more than once regarding this discussion, that I also support Fred Phelps' rights, even though I disagree with him. But that doesn't mean I'm comparing Islam to Fred Phelps.

Just a thought.

I agree with Ron Paul!! We must resist the divide and conquer at all cost.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by skull_bones

 

Similarly, I support the Ku Klux Klans and The Black Panther parties freedom of speech right to spew their hatred and march in the streets, however I dont agree with their messages, and pretty much think they are scum of the earth.

So basically you are likening Muslims to members of the KKK and the Black Panthers?

It is in extemely poor taste and extemely insensitive to New Yorkers, 9/11 victims and their families.

Some 9-11 families and New Yorkers would consider it highly offensive that you are using their tragedy to imagine what they find offensive in order to liken Muslims to the KKK and the Black Panthers.

Muslims happen to also be New Yorkers, and Muslims happened to be working in the World Trade Center on 9-11 too, as Americans and were also victims.

So should we assume that you are only sensitive to the feelings of select New Yorkers and family members and friends of people who lost their lives that day to arrive at your conclusion? But not ALL New Yokers and surviving family members and friends that happen to be Muslim?

I support their constitutional right to build it, but i dont agree with it or think its right, if that makes any sense.

Not at all based on the above.

Would you view Christians or Jews building religious facilities nearby as memorials? Or would you object to them too?





[edit on 24/8/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Look my point is i support the constitution and peoples right to freedom of Speech, Religion, etc....

Im only likening Muslims building a Mosque to that of the KKK or Black Panther Party spewing hatred, as an example of things I dont agree with but will support their right do it. Im not in anyway saying muslims are equal to these other hate groups.

Certainly, I dont speak for all New Yorkers or 9/11 victims, but i do empathize and side with the ones that find this particular Mosque close to ground zero as insensitive and offensive.



[edit on 24-8-2010 by skull_bones]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

I took skull_bones' statement to mean that even though he disagrees with someone, he can support their rights. And I applaud him for that. I have said more than once regarding this discussion, that I also support Fred Phelps' rights, even though I disagree with him. But that doesn't mean I'm comparing Islam to Fred Phelps.

Just a thought.

Yes, that is exactly my point.

Im not comparing one to the other in any way.

NYC is a busy place. Plenty of mosques already there. Plenty of synagogues, churches and all kinds of other stuff as well. This is a total non-issue.

I feel like the GOP has been infiltrated with people whos job it is to behave like fascistoid bigots and embarrass us all.

[edit on 24-8-2010 by Skyfloating]

The whole ground zero mosque situation is ridiculous. There's already a mosque close to there, this will be the second one. This has got nothing to do with freedoms and rights, this is obviously a provocation to start controversy and keep two religions fighting. Seems like a distraction to me, not sure for what though. Do any of your guys know? Anyway, how about we stop arguing about THE LOCATION OF A BUILDING and see the bigger picture?

10 years ago this debate would not have existed.

The people of America have been completely mentally and spiritually retarded by the events of 9/11.

We now live in fear, and hate, and are completely divided.

Those who attacked us won.

It is deep seated hate and our own prideful ego that sees the muslim center as a victory mosque.

Can we please stop being retarded, and go back to the way we were before 9/11... before they divided us.

reply to post by SeventhSeal


One has freedom of speech but it is against the law to shout "fire" in a crowded room also. Use Common Sense. The constitution is irrelevant in matters of emotional traumas, good health, and decency. A decision of this nature should look at all the aspects of the value of such a project, and not be concerned with whether it passes or fails constitutional rights. Not even a decade has passed, and many people are suffering emotionally from this deep scar. Would one plant a rapist next to the woman whose life he had scarred? Think before you act!

Originally posted by LiteraryOneTwo
reply to post by SeventhSeal

 

One has freedom of speech but it is against the law to shout "fire" in a crowded room also. Use Common Sense.

It's Common Sense to figure out why yelling fire in a crowded theater is illegal (unless there actually is a fire, of course). It has to do with the inherent responsibility involved when exercising our Rights...Which is to NOT violate the equal Rights of others. In the theater situation, causing a panic where people get injured during the rush to the exits means the "shouter" is a direct cause for the injuries...They've become victims to a falsely-created panic situation.

I'd merely say that we must avoid the emotional response. The best method I can think of to settle the matter without violating the Constitution would be to deny any religious construction within that area. This way, no religion is gaining or losing anything.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
NYC is a busy place. Plenty of mosques already there. Plenty of synagogues, churches and all kinds of other stuff as well. This is a total non-issue.

I feel like the GOP has been infiltrated with people whos job it is to behave like fascistoid bigots and embarrass us all.

[edit on 24-8-2010 by Skyfloating]

Oh no you mean cognitive infiltration of people suffering from crippled epistemology?

Who would have thought it possible?


Crippled, very crippled epistemology!

Originally posted by spiritualzombieWe now live in fear, and hate, and are completely divided.

Speak for yourself, I am not living in any of that frankly.

Division is other people's game...

When you use the word "We", you really are saying "I"...

Eventually you will see that, however well meaning, such talking like that only adds to the thing you are speaking out against...division...we are not anything, some are fearful, some are bigots, some simply dont care, some are happy and accepting, etc...

Its always the dumbest and smallest numbers that is the loudest...thats typically how it goes...what you lack in numbers you make up for in tone

And yes, most of America tends to feel that these people have a right to plant a mosque wherever they want...not that they plan on attending...its only the really loud idiots that get attention from the media though..the news entertainment need their pretend divisions in order to ensure ratings...also, like watching Jerry Springer, you can look at the small crowds of rabid losers and feel really good about yourself for being exceptionally progressive and tolerant.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

I took skull_bones' statement to mean that even though he disagrees with someone, he can support their rights. And I applaud him for that. I have said more than once regarding this discussion, that I also support Fred Phelps' rights, even though I disagree with him. But that doesn't mean I'm comparing Islam to Fred Phelps.

Just a thought.

I have no idea what the guy who runs the Impossible Mission Team has to do with this!

I too support the right to free speech, yet I sometimes question the desire to assign motive to others without really knowing what compells a person, or group to do the things that they do.

I do believe this though, ultimately we are all responsible for our own emotions and mastering them, and not letting them become the masters of us.

Failure to do so, can and often does lead to one's own manipulation through them by others.

We do feed our own emotional states through the external things we choose to focus on and how we then determine to internalize them.

Up to and including having empathy for others based on what we imagine they are going through, without any real thought individually as to what they are really going through, as people who do this tend to do it through usurption for the sole point of riding an emotional roller coaster.

Inventing drama and spectacle where little to non existed in the first place.

I can't speak for 9-11 families, and I don't think any one family or collection of them can speak for them all, as everyone grieves in different ways, as everyone has a slightly different perception.

All I know is that which does not kill us only serves to make us stronger, and I do question why so many would like for it to make us weaker by imagining those things have diminished us in such a way, we have lost our sense of equality and fair play.

In other words it's nice to be sensitive to one group's imagined needs, but not so nice to do it at the expense of being totally insensitive to another groups to do it.

I think we have all witnessed enough of this sickening debate to understand what I am referring to.

Thanks.

Good for Ron Paul...He's always consistent according to the Constitution; a very admirable trait!

I'm disappointed that Rand doesn't believe the same...The government has NO business helping to fund the project, but we cannot allow ventures concerning religion to be stopped based on sensitivity...That sets a dangerous precedent for us all.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by SeventhSeal

 

Because Paul is a TRUE conservative.. Any "Conservative" against the Mosque and demanding the Government do anything about is a liar, a fraud, a pathetic excuse of a Conservative..

Look at every single person protesting the Mosque and you will see what's destroyed the Republican Party.

The best comment I've ever seen on this web site.

Star for you and I've added you as a friend.

This is the truth many Conservatives want to ignore.

Originally posted by pyramid head
It is placed in a financial district with no muslim community. The only intention for this mosque is to be a shrine to the all of the animals, so they can celebrate their victory in killing our civillians. Everyone knows this, it is not a secret, yet people still defend it.

No, actually it's placed in a neighborhood with over 30,000 residents per square mile, including Muslims. Source

It is being built by an imam who has led a Muslim mosque in the neighborhood for 27 years. There are other mosques in the neighborhood also (just like there are multiple churches of different Christian denominations and multiple synagogues in the neighborhood also).

They have been using the building for prayer since sometime in 2009, because the small storefront mosque 1/2 mile away that the imam has led since 1983 was no longer big enough to hold his congregation.

The intention for the building is clearly stated on the websites of Park51 and the Cordoba Initiative.

I wish people were more aware that this project is led by a Muslim congregation who lost members in the WTC on 9/11. That it is led by an imam who has condemned the actions of the terrorists on that day.

The constitution says ........, this is a weak excuse for being spineless and brainless. Have a little pride in this great country and have a little respect for those whose lives were taken for NO reason by sub-humans. It is OK to say something is wrong, we as Americans have forgotten that, no law should ever cause you to ignore common sense.

People absolutely have the right to oppose this project, to speak out against it.

I wish their so-called "common sense" would urge them to find out more about it rather than condemn it based on assumption and misinformation though.

And those who would like to see a legal block on this project on the basis of the faith adhered to by its leaders are absolutely on thin ice with regard to the First Amendment.

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
Also, I don't see how asking them to build a mosque elsewhere would infringe upon their Right to Worship.

Asking them to does not infringe; trying to force them to does.

And, as I said in my reply to pyramid head, this congregation has been in the neighborhood where they want to build a community center for decades.

People have the right to ask them to leave that community (although the neighborhood itself has supported the project, and I would have thought that it was more the neighborhood's prerogative to let them know they're not welcome than that of people who will never go there).


I have to applaud Ron Paul for remaining ideologically consistent on this issue.

Ron Paul never strays. He is man of principle. He is a straight-shot arrow to
the heart of everything that is corrupt and wrong about our government, and
he never disappoints me.

This country has been mislead, mishandled, and intentionally manipulated
for far too long.

We should have put him at the helm in 2004, because right now we are heading
for the rocks and there is little time left.

Register to vote. Vote for Ron Paul on whatever ticket he runs. Then vote out
all the incumbents in the House and Senate.

WE ARE ALL BICKERING ABOUT THE ROOM ACCOMMODATIONS...
WHILE THE SHIP IS SINKING!

[edit on 24-8-2010 by rival]

reply to post by SeventhSeal


I've really struggled in my thoughts over this Mosque. This is one time I'm afraid I have to agree with both Paul and Obama.

In the end, I have to say it's even more important right now that Religious Freedom be defended. We simply can not hold the entire Muslim Faith accountable for the actions of a few who are not really Muslims themselves. The Muslims did not bring down the Towers; evil men under cover of the Muslim Faith did.

The only real story to come of this is the fact that New York has not allowed the Christian Church that was already there to rebuild. That is what we should be protesting. Not this.

Originally posted by rival
Ron Paul never strays. He is man of principle. He is a straight-shot arrow to
the heart of everything that is corrupt and wrong about our government, and
he never disappoints me.

This country has been mislead, mishandled, and intentionally manipulated
for far too long.

We should have put him at the helm in 2004, because right now we are heading
for the rocks and there is little time left.

Register to vote. Vote for Ron Paul on whatever ticket he runs. Then vote out
all the incumbents in the House and Senate.

WE ARE ALL BICKERING ABOUT THE ROOM ACCOMMODATIONS...
WHILE THE SHIP IS SINKING!

[edit on 24-8-2010 by rival]

Dream on, he has no mandate, no party to lead as he is not the leader, he's not even leader of the opposition. He does not have to deliver so can pander to whatever opinion the public (or public based on his opinion polls) would like him to hold - why not? He won't have to actually do anything.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
The only real story to come of this is the fact that New York has not allowed the Christian Church that was already there to rebuild. That is what we should be protesting. Not this.

What's this about, Blaine? I must have missed it. The building they're tearing down was a coat factory.

OK, I see. Seems Fox News is making that a divisive issue, too...

FYI, the projects -- and the problems -- are utterly unrelated. Park51, formerly known as Cordoba House, wants to build an Islamic community center, open to everyone, on private property in the Tribeca neighborhood several blocks north of Ground Zero.

They have nothing to do with each other and are very different projects. They are not comparable. The Christian church is wanting millions of dollars in public funds for construction.

In contrast, St. Nicholas, a Greek Orthodox church with only a few dozen regular worshipers before 9/11, has been mired in Ground Zero-specific bureaucracy for years, trying to hammer out a deal with the Port Authority to swap its tiny piece of land for a bigger plot and receive millions of dollars in public funds for the construction and security requirements.

Many links at the Source



[edit on 8/24/2010 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by bowlbyville
Ron Paul just lost my vote. His propterty stance is correct but I'm not bending over while these Islamist Jihadists try to stick it to us.

I have a relative in Northern N.J. - at the time of 9/11 he worked in the police department for one of the small towns in Morris county. The police office received a report on 9/11/2001 that there were Palistinians in Palisades N.J. (that overlooks the Hudson & NYC) that were cheering in the streets.

I still have a copy of that police report - I'll have to make it into a PDF and post it on ATS some day...in the meantime, the Jihadists can stick their Mosque somewhere else.

So where's the copy of that police report, because I'd like to read it?

At the time of 9/11/01, I was working with a Muslim from Pakistan whose family was still living there. She saw our media footage portraying Muslims 'celebrating' the attack and told me that our media was lying because it was old footage of her people celebrating a holiday (she recognized what they were saying and dancing about).

Just like after the war started, she became concerned about all the bombings being reported in our media so she called home. Her mother stated there had been no bombings and everything had been peaceful for at least the last 2 weeks. OUR MEDIA LIED! Big surprise (not).

Ron Paul has been dead on predicting many things (especially our current financial fiasco, thanks to the banks & Fed) that have come true and called our representatives in BOTH parties on the long-term effects of their decisions. But they never listen to him because they have their own greedy, financial agendas.

I can't say that I necessarily agree with building a mosque RIGHT AT "ground zero", however, this is a location several blocks from the site. Therefore, the constitution must be upheld. Most of our ancestors moved to this land to escape religious persecution in their homelands. Wouldn't our Founding Fathers be pleased to see we are following the footsteps of the exact principles they were denied and trying to avoid in establishing THIS country!

Bravo to all who continue to be blinded by the illusions created by TPTB and the MSM to keep us distracted from the REAL issues.

[edit on 8/24/2010 by Nivcharah]