Can we talk about the Jesuits for once?

reply to post by Blarneystoner


Unfortunately, you will notice that ATS and CiR is populated with vitriolic anti-religionists. Catholicism and anything related to it is often the prime target for both those hating religion and members of other Christian beliefs who see ninja Jesuit masters lurking in every ecclesiastic shadow.

If you take the time to look passed the hatred and ignorance, there's a bunch of intelligent, well meaning and civil people here that are worth dealing with the ignorant for.

Eric

Originally posted by Blarneystoner

Originally posted by FortAnthem


Here's a thread I did concerning the Jesuits:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Its about the story claiming that 8 Jesuits survived the atomic blast in Hiroshima unscathed and without any radiation poisoning. Supposedly, they were less than one kilometer from the epicenter and should have been vaporized.

I speculate that they may have been acting as spys for the Vatican, keeping watch on the secret Japanese nuclear program and may have known to seek cover when they saw the solitary bomber high above the city.

Also of interest is that a future Black Pope was at a seminary that took minor damage from the blast, just outside the city. It makes you wonder if he wasn't there on orders from the order to carry out some type of black mass type sacrifice using all those killed during the atomic blast as a burnt offering to the Jesuit's dark master.

I met one of those gentlemen when I was a child. He was a friend of my great uncle, a Jesuit brother. You have no idea who these men were and you are slandering good people. This thread is beyond dispicable and you people should be ashamed.

While i agree with you in principle that its not right to speculate generally about the jesuits there are numerous examples unique to catholicism where members of the Jesuit, Franciscan and Domican orders go out and incite genocide.

These men are Mystics, people forget to remember, or simply do not understand. Their talents are spiritual in nature, and thus, theyre use is in persuading and controlling spiritual events. This is why through the middle ages and feudal times the Christian world was ruled by the monks, most of whom have a gnostic social apathy.

I will never forget the little bit i did read into Jesuit philosophy. its founder, Ignatius Loyola said "The end Sanctifies the means". In other words prescribing evil as a way to sanctify a 'holy end'. And out of this essential thought of loyola, came doctrines like moral probabalism. The jesuit order is very very sketchy, and frankly, much of its comes off as manichean dualism, gnosticism, where evil and falsehood is engaged in to bring about a truth and a good. This is not much different from the pagan philosophies of earlier epochs - Babylon, Egypt but mostly Greece and Rome.

So, i think its completely justified, based on these existant philosophical texts that the Jesuits do indeed hide alot. If they can suppose, as the theory of moral probabalism does, that the ultimate moral truth is contingent on authority, whether that be incarnated as the pope or his representatives elsewhere, than its reasonable to assume that "lying" and denying any illicit behavior is apart of the "greater good" implied by "the end sanctifies the means". This particular idea i learned from the works of the Spanish Jesuit Antonio Escobar

In Rabbinic thought, Edom means Rome. Long before the Catholic Church - before they became 'christian' ie; back in the greco-roman days, the religion of Edom was that of Esau, as the bible says "Esau; he is Edom". Edom means "red" as in blood and warfare. What was Isaacs Blessing to Esau? "You will live by the sword". Esau, Edom represents an archetypal consciousness. Edom back than was in southern Jordan. Its ancestors eventually migrated northward into Greece and Italy and comingled with their populations. But the attitude and the spiritual tradition inherited by those peoples was that of Edom. Esau and Jacob. The former symbolize the western leaders, and the latter the Jewish leaders.

Notice how Rome didnt discard any of the symbolic imagery of Rome? What is its idol? what is the popular symbol of Rome? Romulus and Remus nursing from the teet of a WOLF. Is that not enough of a symbolic indicator of what the Church of Rome symbolizes? What is a wolf? The wolf is deified here because of its qualities. The wolf is know for hunting in pacts and being very organized in their ability to trap their victim. Likewise, the church of Rome, its caretakers, symbolically suckle from the breast of the archetype of Esau, from the power to 'hunt; (Esau was described as a hunter) a man of the world, but Esau was also extrordinarly wily and devious. He was willing to give up his birthright for some lentil soup. Even the new testament says Jesus came to bring a 'sword' to the world, in which case, the church has manifested this prediction, acting, undoubtedly with forthought, in bringing about the 'end' predicted by Revelations at the end of time, By means of the "sword" of the Roman Catholic church and subsequently the entire western world.

Im amazed a sincere and devout catholic isnt bothered by the rampant pagan imagery and philosophy inherent to the christian tradition. Does the 4500 year old Egyptian obelisk which stood at heliopolis (erected by a 5th dynasty pharoah) not bother them? What about their preservation of the memory (and thus the "name") of Greek and Roman Art and culture? The title pontifix maximus, which was used by the high priests of rome? How about the Pontiff Beetle emblem? Does matter that its an ancient sun symbol used by the Egyptians? Infact, everything about Christianity is related to the sun. Apollo was virtually christ in every way, symbolically speaking, that christ was. Even his name in Iosophia is reduced to 8, just as St. Peters square is partitioned into 8 different sections. Look at this english phenomena. Son of G-d, Sun. Son being a homonym of Sun.

Anyways. Theres ample reason to believe the Jesuits and thus the Catholic Church is at the helm of whats going on today. The invisible hand that hides it influence by creating screens and veneers that contradict the truth of its authority.

Originally posted by dontreally
...These men are Mystics, people forget to remember, or simply do not understand. Their talents are spiritual in nature, and thus, theyre use is in persuading and controlling spiritual events. This is why through the middle ages and feudal times the Christian world was ruled by the monks, most of whom have a gnostic social apathy.

This is an interesting and important point. People seem to forget the difference between mysticism and fundamentalism, and all that entails. In our own time, we associate Chrisian involvement in politics with the fundamentalist/evangelical strain of thought, but at other times the mystics have held sway. A circle of 17th century mystics essentially ran the 30 Year's War, one of the bloodiest and most traumatic pre-20th-century events in European history. These men were devotees of a form of mystical prayer known as "annihilation in the Essential Will," which in some ways is a very profound spiritual practice -- but not one that carries over well into the realm of politics.

My understanding of the Jesuits as mystics is that they represent a streamlining and a "practical-ization" of ideas stemming from the Spansh School of Spirituality (i.e., St. Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross), and, before that, medieval mysticsm, no doubt. Loyola's Spiritual Excercises represent a highly condensed, super efficient "mysticism in 30 days" program designed to create a powerful shift of consciousness in a short period of time. The Jesuit was given some tools for the mystic life, but another part of him was involved very much in the world. Ultimately, I think the Jesuits' polticial power peaked long ago in history, perhaps in the 16th and 17th centuries, riding the waves of Spanish and Portugeese colonialism. What they once were, they are no longer, IMHO.

If people are interested in knowing facts about Jesuits I can highly recommend Swedenborg´s scriptures(the last ture prophet of Jesus) who reveal very detailed information about evil, cunning and deceitful Jesuits who did black magic and were mostly atheists.

www.sacred-texts.com...

Many of the Jesuits ended up in boiling cauldrons(hell) while the good ones ended up in heaven. I remember how he described the Pope´s aftermaths, both the white and the black pope were described in detail. Roman catholics were not in high esteem in afterlife, let´s put it that way. The Lord will tear down the whole Christian church at Judgment and judge each and everyone of the clergy corresponding to their acts in life. Church is the beast of the bible and the mark of the beast is their false concept of "Faith is everything"(and sinful acts don´t count...).

Of course, Swedenborg ironically came from the city of "Falun" in Sweden, he worked in the mining industry of Falun and all his prophecies spoke about modern day "Falun Dafa"(Falun Gong in the news). He called this self-cultivation school of Falun Dafa "New Church" that would take over from all other religions and he described it in great detail and how a Son-Of-Man would spread it across the world from China.

Amazingly the city of Falun has a "Falu" river that in tradition is said to "divide the city into a wonderful and one horrid part"... Amazingly the horrid part of Falun has a bottomless pit(the mine) and very few plants and flowers are said to be able to live on that side... While the other side has beautiful houses, plants etc..

Speaking of judgment and Falun Dafa...

Swedenborg also desribed how disciples of Falun Dafa would be persecuted by the Communist Party in China. Those people who could believe in "Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance is good, Falun Dafa is good" was to be saved as the future mankind.

All of what he said has come true, only Judgment by Falun Dafa is left to do.

Originally posted by silent thunder

Originally posted by dontreally
...These men are Mystics, people forget to remember, or simply do not understand. Their talents are spiritual in nature, and thus, theyre use is in persuading and controlling spiritual events. This is why through the middle ages and feudal times the Christian world was ruled by the monks, most of whom have a gnostic social apathy.

This is an interesting and important point. People seem to forget the difference between mysticism and fundamentalism, and all that entails. In our own time, we associate Chrisian involvement in politics with the fundamentalist/evangelical strain of thought, but at other times the mystics have held sway. A circle of 17th century mystics essentially ran the 30 Year's War, one of the bloodiest and most traumatic pre-20th-century events in European history. These men were devotees of a form of mystical prayer known as "annihilation in the Essential Will," which in some ways is a very profound spiritual practice -- but not one that carries over well into the realm of politics.

My understanding of the Jesuits as mystics is that they represent a streamlining and a "practical-ization" of ideas stemming from the Spansh School of Spirituality (i.e., St. Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross), and, before that, medieval mysticsm, no doubt. Loyola's Spiritual Excercises represent a highly condensed, super efficient "mysticism in 30 days" program designed to create a powerful shift of consciousness in a short period of time. The Jesuit was given some tools for the mystic life, but another part of him was involved very much in the world. Ultimately, I think the Jesuits' polticial power peaked long ago in history, perhaps in the 16th and 17th centuries, riding the waves of Spanish and Portugeese colonialism. What they once were, they are no longer, IMHO.

edit on 11/11/10 by silent thunder because: (no reason given)

Im going back much further.

The bible talks about Shem HaGadol. What are these Shem HaGadol? It literally means in Hebrew "men of Great name" or men, who were famous and very well known. In strictly spiritual terms, having fame actually brings to you power; the power to influence others. The first man to do this was Nimrod which literally means "we will descend". Serving G-d means putting aside your own egottistical aspirations and humbling yourself before your source. A common Rabbinic maxim is 'make his will, yours'. In other words, use your power of choice to choose whats true.

The men of the pre-diluvian world absolutely reviled serving G-d. They considered his yoke a burden and a needless weight which they believed they had the power to cast off. This was the influence of the snake (Nachash - snake in Hebrew also means divination. So in a deeper sense, they discovered how to manipulate the spiritual energies and therefore bypass serving the creator).

Propaganda is actually an alchemical process. It transmutes one state into another, through use of imagery, catch phrases, that incite behavior towards a particular archetypal consciousness. Therefore the collective psyche can be moved on will, and the 'archetypes' of behavior, in particular, receive nourishment from this manipulation from below; driving on the masses in a predictable manner.

So, the elites ie; aristocrats, that is, Noble families have existed since ancient times. May be unbelievable to believe but there is ample evidence for this, that certain key families of Europe go back literally thousands of years. Key figures you can check out is Otto Von Habsburg, Head of the house of Lorraine, who comes from a noble line that is documented all the way back patrilineally to 480 CE. Henri, grand duke of Luxembourg's patrilineal line can be traced back to 600 CE. If it goes this far back, its reasonable to assume it goes much further. Some of Ottos ancestors are holy roman emperors. The Massimo family of Rome are said to go back to the Maximi family of Ancient Rome, which is further traced to the founders of Rome, the Fabians. This particular family is very interesting because its sons "princes" intermarry with the other noble families of Europe, Savoy, Windsor, Bourbon, Orange, Lorraine, Hesse etc. Mystically speaking. The Masculine is the 'giver' or the power of influence, whereas the female is the reciever, which takes that influence and gives it expression. The fact that the massimo family marry off their princes in this fashion and the other much more popular and known European Noble houses give their daughters to them, indicates the nature of the relationship between this family, considered the oldest by far in Europe. The massimo direct and influence, while that which gives expression to this power, are the mainstream noble houses.

It should also be noted that most popes have been Aristocrats, thus tying them into the interests of the nobility.. So, whats so odd about creating an atmosphere in which you conceal your power by placing layers in front of you? In the case of the Roman Church, you have other Christian denominations (which seems to trivialize romes essential authority) you have divergent movements ie liberalism, atheism, existentialism than you have the influence of governments. Each 'layer' appears to have power of its own that contradicts the spiritual will of the papacy.

To understand this you have to go deeper. There may be hundreds of winding rivers on the surface, but below, theres one subterranean lake which provides water to the various rivers on the surface. Western mans roots lie in Pagandom. If you actualy follow the development of Christianity, you find that many cultures integrated the new christian religion by replacing their own gods with christian figures. Whether this happened in Greece or Germany, it was the same. In Rome, and the ancient grecan world, Saturnalia was practiced by christian communities in their typical fashion because ultimately, it didnt contract the Christian religion, which is antinomian in nature. Wherever you go through Europe you have this antinomian pagan flavor, with each culture or nation having a particular idolatrous (that is, a worship of some archetype, and not the creator himself) worship of a power they worship in themselves. This was wotan to the nordic and germanic peoples, it was 'dionysous' or appolo to the greeks and romans, and in other areas their were different areas of emphasis. Their was however one common thread; taht man should be free - Liber (roman equivalent of Dionysus) to choose whichever path he wishes. The Indo-european language is a interesting phenomenon that shows a common spiritual source between the western european and Indo-iranian peoples.

Beneath all this 'christianity' and Islam and Hinduism is a common perennial philosophy, shared by all peoples, except the Jews. Rome is the body which has historically directed the world in every possible sense. Its remarkably sophistacted and elaborate heirarchy is similar in thought to the structure and order essential in greek philosophy which desires to systemetize everything. This is what this structure of our world is all about. There an exoteric and a esoteric layer. A picture which to use appears one way, instills certain emotions and feelings about it, and theres an entirely much abstruse and mystical society which acts in a similar way to the void which conceals the eye of providence from the created world. 'similar' but not the same. The fact of Romes authority and a mystical agenda is very apparent if anyone bothers looking.

reply to post by dontreally


Good post

I think we can finally agree on something. I don't trust Jesuits either.

You've been reading much esoteric literature, it is evident from your analogies.

I especially liked the part where you talked about European paganism and christianity replacing pagan deities and hallowed days by it's own..

Not all Nordics held Wotan as their highest deity. Finnish people have their own mystical "qabalah", called Kalevala. Maybe you should sometimes read it, to gain more information. Of course, the book Kalevala does not describe the oral heritage totally, like doesn't any written book on Qabalah.

Anyway, I see that all the religions are tied together with same underground pond, even judaism. While there are many differences between religions, there are too many similarities. And we can see that religions in themselves have various sects that disagree with some of the principles. And so is with Judaism too.

There are "people of god" in all flocks, as there are deceivers amongst the good. Not all Jesuits may be bad, as well as not all jude's are evil

I just find it interesting how the Rome is still struggling with the power, because even Tony Blair converted into catholism before applying as candidate to EU presidency. And when the president was chosen, he was one with Jesuit connections. Even in local politics, we have signficant populist party leaders converting in catholism..

-v

PS. Proverb "power corrupts" holds true especially with religions. Once upon time every religion started from a honest attempt to explain the reality and forces behind it - but once established the need for control creeped in and so most religions have become tools for power.

The history of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. As influenced by Jesuits.

Did you know the jesuits were unceremoniously kicked out of those 2 cities around 1600 AD?

We all know about the atom bomb proof prayers, i'm a goodly man, and believe in miracles, but i also believe in deception and treachery. I also believe that if you ever refuse them, they will come back for you, even if it takes over 300 years to do. There is no other evidence that so well explains the bombing of 2 reletivelyunimportant cities AFTER they had surrendered, save revenge (FDR??) ... and the jesuits who miraculously "survived by praying to fatima" has got to be one of the most calculated insults of all time.

Blarneystone, oh thats a fabrication too isn't it? Well, since QE2, at least.

Originally posted by harryhaller
The history of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. As influenced by Jesuits.

Did you know the jesuits were unceremoniously kicked out of those 2 cities around 1600 AD?

We all know about the atom bomb proof prayers, i'm a goodly man, and believe in miracles, but i also believe in deception and treachery. I also believe that if you ever refuse them, they will come back for you, even if it takes over 300 years to do. There is no other evidence that so well explains the bombing of 2 reletivelyunimportant cities AFTER they had surrendered, save revenge (FDR??) ... and the jesuits who miraculously "survived by praying to fatima" has got to be one of the most calculated insults of all time.

Blarneystone, oh thats a fabrication too isn't it? Well, since QE2, at least.

Good lord man... now you're blaming the Jesuits for those events because of some curse? Retribution for something that occured 300 years prior? You have quite an imagination.

You should brush up on your history. The Japanese didn't surrender before the bombings and were given three days to do so after the first.

I really don't care anymore, what you people say, these wild speculations are obviously delusional fabrications of very confused minds. I know better.

Why do you think this thread isn't going anywhere? I'll tell you; because it's full of garbage.

~Peace

US President Harry S. Truman also knew that the emperor of Japan had accepted the terms of an unconditional surrender 19 days before the first atomic bomb was dropped. Truman and his staff were cognizant and fully aware that the Japanese wanted to surrender; Soviet Leader Joseph Stalin knew it; and British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and his staff knew it also. They all knew, yet they chose to ignore the Japanese emperor’s official request to accept a Japanese surrender.

www.lewrockwell.com...

Originally posted by harryhaller

US President Harry S. Truman also knew that the emperor of Japan had accepted the terms of an unconditional surrender 19 days before the first atomic bomb was dropped. Truman and his staff were cognizant and fully aware that the Japanese wanted to surrender; Soviet Leader Joseph Stalin knew it; and British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and his staff knew it also. They all knew, yet they chose to ignore the Japanese emperor’s official request to accept a Japanese surrender.

www.lewrockwell.com...

Hahaha.... Lew Rockwell? That tinfoil hat wearing nut job apologist needs to have his head examined. Nice try bud, but that doesn't prove anything, it's all hearsay and un-substantiated speculation just like the rest of this thread.

reply to post by harryhaller


Revisionist BS with no evidence to support the calims you put forth:

One might think that compelling substantiation would be necessary to support such a monstrous charge, but the revisionists have been unable to provide a single example from Japanese sources. What they have done instead amounts to a variation on the old shell game. They state in their own prose that the Japanese were trying to surrender without citing any evidence and, to show that Truman was aware of their efforts, cite his diary entry of July 18 [1945] referring to a "telegram from Jap Emperor asking for peace."

There it is! The smoking gun! But it is nothing of the sort. The message Truman cited did not refer to anything even remotely resembling surrender. It referred instead to the Japanese foreign office's attempt (under the suspicious eyes of the military) to persuade the Soviet Union to broker a negotiated peace that would have permitted the Japanese to retain their prewar empire and their imperial system (not just the emperor) intact. No American president could have accepted such a settlement, as it would have meant abandoning the United States' most basic war aims.

Source: American Thinker

A proposed surrender that "would have permitted the Japanese to retain their prewar empire and their imperial system (not just the emperor) intact."

Did you read that part? Let it sink in. Is this the "surrender" you're refering to? Please, try to convince someone else of your delusional beliefs because I'm not buying the garbage you're selling.

I'm sorry, your snarkiness aside, 2 opposing views, that's all.

Remove your insulting language and you're just of a different opinion to me?

American thinker, lovely oxymoron. Doesn't mean they're right

Originally posted by v01i0
reply to post by dontreally

 

Good post

I think we can finally agree on something. I don't trust Jesuits either.

You've been reading much esoteric literature, it is evident from your analogies.

I especially liked the part where you talked about European paganism and christianity replacing pagan deities and hallowed days by it's own..

Not all Nordics held Wotan as their highest deity. Finnish people have their own mystical "qabalah", called Kalevala. Maybe you should sometimes read it, to gain more information. Of course, the book Kalevala does not describe the oral heritage totally, like doesn't any written book on Qabalah.

Anyway, I see that all the religions are tied together with same underground pond, even judaism. While there are many differences between religions, there are too many similarities. And we can see that religions in themselves have various sects that disagree with some of the principles. And so is with Judaism too.

There are "people of god" in all flocks, as there are deceivers amongst the good. Not all Jesuits may be bad, as well as not all jude's are evil

I just find it interesting how the Rome is still struggling with the power, because even Tony Blair converted into catholism before applying as candidate to EU presidency. And when the president was chosen, he was one with Jesuit connections. Even in local politics, we have signficant populist party leaders converting in catholism..

-v

PS. Proverb "power corrupts" holds true especially with religions. Once upon time every religion started from a honest attempt to explain the reality and forces behind it - but once established the need for control creeped in and so most religions have become tools for power.

edit on 12-11-2010 by v01i0 because: 554

What are these different currents in Judaism?

Prior to the 'enlightenment" there was only one Judaism, today called orthodox or pejoratively "ultra orthodox". traditional Judaism was and is legalistic in nature.

This is the essential difference between Judaism and other religions. You could if you like go through the library of Jewish texts and you could see for yourself. I can help you though, because ive studied quite a bit of Judaism as well as Hinduism, Islam and Christianity, along with a host of other subjects. They are in character, antinomian. They reject the 'one law' principle wjhich Judaism values as being the highest possible way to connect with ones source. In Kabbalistic terms. The highest 'sefirah' is keter. the lowest is malkhut. Between Malkhut and keter are 8 sefirot (or 9 depending on the context) which are essentially intellectual and emotional in nature. Keter is translated as crown , as refers to superconscious faculties like will and pleasure. Pleasure precedes will, and so is called allegorically, Atik Yomin, aramaic for "ancient of days", while Will or desire is called "Arich Anpin" - long face (as opposed to the 6 lower emotions, called zeir anpin, small face). So keter has two personas to it. When the creator gives man a specfic command, hes allowing man to transcend the limited world which is the 9 lower sefirot from Chokmah, and connect with the root and source of reality. Because this is so, when man performs G-ds will, they ignite his pleasure (desire proceeds from pleasure, but pleasure cannot be realized without desire, so the two are intrinsically united - hence being a part of the same sefirah) which results in a "blessing", a showering of G-ds pleasure on mankind.

In the sefer Yetzirah, an ancient kabbalistic text, it explains that the end is enwedged in the beginning, and the beginning in the end. In other words, every will to act has a defined intention, and every action alludes to the will which brought it about. What happens in between, the conceptualizing, thought, feeling, etc, is only to realize what was first in thought, that is, the desire itself. Thus, the world is only really unified when mankind performs G-ds will here on earth.

In the Talmud, its explained that G-d gave 6 commandments to adam. These commandments were associated, abstractly, with the 6 directions of the world which Adam had been placed in. In the higher worlds, in Yetzirah, where Adam came from, these 6 directions were the 6 emotive faculties of Zeir Anpin. Chesed, Gevurah, Tiferet, Netzach, Hod and Yesod. They each signify a different archetypal aspect of reality, but in simple terms, the upper triad is inner focused, while the lower triad is outer focused. This is a much different type of experience of reality than what we experience in this concrete world of 3 dimensions. When Adam was placed here, G-d created for him a world, which was much more 'real' that crystalized the world he came from in physical reality. The 6 directions became associated with 6 states of existence, 6 ways of knowing G-d and 6 continuous commandments. These 6 were each associated with an archetype it derived from, since this world itself is a 'projection' of the higher world, each sefirah is found in some aspect of this lower world.

So, Adam was given 6 ways of 'knowing' G-d, and unifying the lower world, this way, with the higher abstract world. When Noah came around, G-d gave an additional commandment of not to eat the meat of a living animal (since Adam was only allowed to eat vegetables), therefore, kill it first, dry it of its blood (its lifeforce) and than eat it in sanctity.

This is what Judaism and Kabbalah is all about.

Yes, i know you can find currents in Islam with a legalistic nature. But have you studied sufism? This aspect of Islam reveals its real, paradoxical nature. The bektashi order of sufism, popular in Turkey and the Balkans, promotes ritual transgression of halel and orgies. This is an actual part of Islam. Even the Al Khadir narrative in the koran reveals this connection (the episode itelsef alludes to the 'self' relative to the ego, represented by moses).

Christianity is the same with their gnosticism, and obviously the east is the undiluted reservoir of this mentality. I know you can find schools of thought in each of these traditions with a very Judaic outlook, considering humility this highest human attribute and submission to a higher source by following laws as necessary. But Judaism is nothing like them. There is only one current of thought, albeit, you'll find different flavors or emphasis', but all within the framework of a 613 law legalistic Torah. Whether Sefardic, Ashkenazi, Chassidic, or even Modern orthodox, they all follow the laws as mandated in the shulchan aruch.

This is one of the amazing things in Judaism. Not much opposition because the gravity of its inner esoteric dimension is that impressive (with regard to Hebrew as language and Kabbalah itself).

Also, reform, conservative, neo chassidic is not Judaism. They dont event respect the Torah that 3500 years of Jews have devoted themselves to. Its a sham and mockey of what Judaism is about. Half of the so called jews involved with these traditions dont even know a thing about real Judaism, the significance of its rituals, laws etc. Nothing in Judaism is dissasociated from kabbalah, as the inner dimension is the subterranian aquaduct which nourishes the many 'rivers' of exoteric Judaism.

In fact, the one time that a movement arose in Judaism which espoused gnostic/pagan beliefs, the sabbateans, they were immideality excommunicated by Europes Rabbis. Same thing with the frankists.

Back to the point of the thread. I dont understand why people think the Catholic Church doesnt have power. did you see Pope John Pauls funeral? did you know more dignitaries payed respect to him than any leader ever, in world history? literally, they arrived in droves. The entire thing televized world wide. This is a symbolic statement, not simply a 'savy political gesture' by leaders with large catholic populations. The Church of Rome is the spiritual guardian of the perennially philosophy, or as many mystics put it, the "great work" which these aristocrats are involved in with regard to our world.

just as the spiritual worlds are concealed from human vision, so to their influence in society is hidden behind a formal structure with its own inner reason and logic which persuades most people of its veracity. But i must remind people of the inherent philosophy Christianity is built upon. I want to remind people of the UN, Lucis trust, and the new age, popularization of eastern philosophy here in the west. Do you think nihilism is new? Thats old, ancient stuff. The greeksm Egyptians, babylonians and pagans of asia minor built a whole fabulous mythology all about the standarizing the 'do what thou wilt' albeit, within a system of social order and law in order to preserve a semblance of order.

Thats the thing about the west. It is one massive hoax. do you think christian leaders really have a Jewish like philosophy? does that explain their plundering the rest of the world? enslaving their own citizens?

Just so many questions. Why would the pagans of asia minor, and greece, accept a christianity that was' jewish' when they had been revolting against that philosophy, and in fact going to incredible lengths to subvert the Jewish peoples own ability to abide by its code of ethics. They were not interested in Law. Jesus brought them a law that was a law in essence repeated the same perennial beliefs of their forefathers. The 'body' the flesh, the animal soul (seeing the body is a symbol for this) became free from the law of moses because Jesus, the messiah, had finally 'redeemed' matter, and allowed it to be raised and sublimated by the spiritual. Did he mean this in the jewish way? of raising the physical to the spiritual? or lowering the spiritual into the physical? no. What Christianity taught was already what hellenistic greece, with their apollo, dionysus worship already believed. That within the physical is a spirit. Christianity taught the same thing. This is what Saturnalia was so prevalent in the ancient christian world. this is why even the popes of rome practiced saturnalia. Its nihilism. Christianity is actually mans attempt to make god in their own image.

Im not saying all christians are nihilists at all. Im just saying Christianity is a fabrication in the sense that its coming to 'fullfil' the prophecies of Judaism. No, ifact what occured was a reitteration of the same hellenistic drum line in a Jewish wrapper.

Originally posted by harryhaller
I'm sorry, your snarkiness aside, 2 opposing views, that's all.

Remove your insulting language and you're just of a different opinion to me?

American thinker, lovely oxymoron. Doesn't mean they're right

If you chose to view my responses as personally insulting then by all means, do so. Did you ever consider that your initial response to this thread was extremely insulting and slanderous? You make accusations of mass murder without any foundation in reality and you get offended when someone says your beliefs are dellusional. Please, give me a break! Yes, they are just opinions but extremely controversial and far-fetched, so don't get all pissy when you get called out as a fruit cake.

I do not want to talk bad about the Jesuits, but there are some things, that needs further Investigation. I am going to post 3 Links, about the Jesuits. But remember no one is Guilty until proven otherwise.

1. Canada

A second possible case of genocide during the Huron-Iroquois conflict involves the Jesuits. In 1640 the Iroquois met with then Governor Montmagny of New France in an attempt to procure a treaty allowing them to kill Algonquin, allies of the Huron, without French interference. In return, Iroquois would no longer attack French or Huron furriers. Montmagny at first declined, but was persuaded by Jesuit priests to agree, provided the Iroquois promised to attack only non-Christian Algonquin. The Algonquin were never informed of the treaty. Trigger contends that the Jesuits, who were dependent on the fur trade, feared losing their missions if trade was cut off and recognized this as an opportunity to encourage Algonquin conversion. While the Iroquois' intent was to attack Algonquin randomly, Jesuit intent, inflicting conditions that aimed to annihilate non-Christian Algonquin, may have qualified as a genocide; however, Trigger points out that the treaty was only temporary.

2. Amazon Region

The Jesuits in the Amazon were more exploitative, however, and the Indians in their aldeias, or mission villages, on Marajó Island, at the mouth of the river, became peons who took care of their vast herds of cattle. Indians were forcibly baptized and catechized, and became detribalized "shirt Indians." With the colonists taking their most beautiful women, there were almost no pure-blooded Indians on the river by the time the Jesuits were expelled from Latin American in l760; only cablocos or mestizos, remained. Miscegenation also played a major role in diluting and breaking down the cultural identity and physical distinctiveness of the Amazon's Natives. The offspring with Portuguese were known as mamelucos, and those produced with African slaves as cafuzos.

The Jesuits were replaced by directorates, and an imperial proclamation declared the end of the enslavement and forced labor of Indians. They were now free, but the pitiful remnants of once-proud peoples were open to other forms of exploitation. Unpacified and assimilated groups continued to be rounded up and massacred by the bandeirantes, or pioneers, who forged deep into the interior. Only a few tribes, such as the Kayapo in the upper Xingu Valley and Waimiri Atroari in Roraima, put up such fierce resistance that they managed to withstand the encroachment and invasion of their land until the late twentieth century.

3. Germany reels at abuse in top Jesuit school Written on Saturday, February 6, 2010

Germany reels at abuse in top Jesuit school The now familiar narrative of systematic abuse of children by priests has scandalised Germans, but campaigners fear the church’s perceived lack of will to change will deny victims justice, writes DEREK SCALLY in Berlin.

As i said at the start, some incidents really raising serious questions about Jesuits. After all their Motto is : "Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam" which simply means "For the greater glory of God". I wonder what Glory.

Peace

reply to post by dontreally

Originally posted by dontreally

What are these different currents in Judaism?

Was that like a rethorical questions, because right after you also provide the answer...?

Even if there may be some mainstream judaism, it doesn't mean there aren't other currents as well. I've seen rabbis arquing the interpretation of teachings of torah and other sacred texts. Obviously you know that also Roman Catholic church expelled various "heretic" groups, like gnostics.. It doesn't necessarily mean that the mainstream interpretation is right one. Besides judaism is not orignal but a mixture of zoroastrim and other persian/asian religions. When talking about myths, I doubt there's one original...

What I really meant that all religions share same roots, same teachings, pretty much similar essence in a host of ways. Of course there are differences, because each sect and each person is subjective and perhaps want to make distinctions to others... But no matter how good teachings a religion bear, in the end it is the people who interpret them and start making crusades... And religions and power has a long history of common affairs also. Like the case of Jesuits and Rome proves.

Originally posted by dontreally
Back to the point of the thread.

Gee - Finally

I agree that Rome is still very much in power. Did anyone notice that Tony Blair before announced candidacy on EU president campaign, converted in Catholism? Same goes today with many local politicians here... And I wonder why. They don't seem very religious persons anyway.

Originally posted by dontreally
Thats the thing about the west. It is one massive hoax. do you think christian leaders really have a Jewish like philosophy? does that explain their plundering the rest of the world? enslaving their own citizens?

People are slaves everywhere. Goes without saying, that there ain't much difference with christian west and israel.. Except the latter is more openly cruel and doesn't even try to hide it's monstrosities. If christians (especially the leaders) are hypocritical, some zionist jews are pretty evil in a straighforward manner

-v

Originally posted by v01i0
reply to post by dontreally

 

Originally posted by dontreally

What are these different currents in Judaism?

Was that like a rethorical questions, because right after you also provide the answer...?

Even if there may be some mainstream judaism, it doesn't mean there aren't other currents as well. I've seen rabbis arquing the interpretation of teachings of torah and other sacred texts. Obviously you know that also Roman Catholic church expelled various "heretic" groups, like gnostics.. It doesn't necessarily mean that the mainstream interpretation is right one. Besides judaism is not orignal but a mixture of zoroastrim and other persian/asian religions. When talking about myths, I doubt there's one original...

What I really meant that all religions share same roots, same teachings, pretty much similar essence in a host of ways. Of course there are differences, because each sect and each person is subjective and perhaps want to make distinctions to others... But no matter how good teachings a religion bear, in the end it is the people who interpret them and start making crusades... And religions and power has a long history of common affairs also. Like the case of Jesuits and Rome proves.

Originally posted by dontreally
Back to the point of the thread.

Gee - Finally

I agree that Rome is still very much in power. Did anyone notice that Tony Blair before announced candidacy on EU president campaign, converted in Catholism? Same goes today with many local politicians here... And I wonder why. They don't seem very religious persons anyway.

Originally posted by dontreally
Thats the thing about the west. It is one massive hoax. do you think christian leaders really have a Jewish like philosophy? does that explain their plundering the rest of the world? enslaving their own citizens?

People are slaves everywhere. Goes without saying, that there ain't much difference with christian west and israel.. Except the latter is more openly cruel and doesn't even try to hide it's monstrosities. If christians (especially the leaders) are hypocritical, some zionist jews are pretty evil in a straighforward manner

-v

edit on 14-11-2010 by v01i0 because: 914

Theres an intesting thread on 'foundation x' where a lord of the british house of commons goes on a diatribe on the need of the noble/lords to accept help from a mysterious group. Anyways, when arguing about whether they have the means, that is, teh bullion to help the slumping economy, he mentions the vatican and their gold reserves. Immidiately hes cut off and told to hurry up his speech. LOL

Vatican is obviously the source of power in the world. Appeances are designed to be deceiving. Theyre meant, and literally fashioned, psychologically speaking, to have you doubting and second guessing the possibility that the vatican is any more than a 'symbolic' power in the world, and even than only to catholics.

please, remind at one time (rhetorical question) when the religion and state werent completely merged. were told that since the 1700s aristocrats and religion havent controlled society. so, we have nearly 5000 years of one form of government, from 3800 BCE, the start of conventional civilization in sumer, throughout the ancient past up until the late rennaisance, and than suddenly, what? the people wake up to this exploitation? I dont think so. the elite just became more sophisticated. There is such an enormous gap of knowledge, and mental perspicacity beetween the elite class and the commoners that it is simply impossible for the common class to rise above barring some supernatural intervention. Its just fact. Study the esoteric dimension of religions and you will be as confused, if you dont know better, how it is that these teachings arent disseminated throughout the world, among its lay followers. Is it because theyre simply not mentally mature enough? Or does the PTB have a deliberate lid on keeping certain information hidden until a certain time. In the late 1800s the 'inner' dimension, gnosticism, alchemy etc, in the form of thoeophy began to be promulgated. and now today you have all these non-nobles, with no association to secret socieites studying this philosophy on their own. But in the past, only those initiated knew the deeper metaphysical secrets, and thus the political secrets which surrounded the entire institution of government. Nothing is done in this world without a current that caused it to move in such a way.

So, back to Rome. the Jesuits have been their little pitbulls for a while, along with the papal nuncios which historically have been very tied in with the Jesuit order (Eugene Pacelli, pope pius XII was tutored and advised by the Jesuits both as a child growing up and later on as papal nuncio in Germany - theyre simply everywhere these people).

The secrets of the christian world are bound up with the ancient past. In Egypt, Greece, Babylon and even as far as Persia and India. The massive obelish in st. peters square is actually, no joke, a 4500 year old obelisk transported from Helios in Egypt, built of pure granite in the 5th dynasty in Egypt. Augustus has it moved to alexandria and later on caligula brought it to Rome. It even stood at Neros colliseum overseeing the brutal gladitorial battles. So, how is this good? How much pagan relics have to be associated with the Vatican before people wake up?

Originally posted by v01i0
reply to post by dontreally

 

Originally posted by dontreally

What are these different currents in Judaism?

Was that like a rethorical questions, because right after you also provide the answer...?

Even if there may be some mainstream judaism, it doesn't mean there aren't other currents as well. I've seen rabbis arquing the interpretation of teachings of torah and other sacred texts. Obviously you know that also Roman Catholic church expelled various "heretic" groups, like gnostics.. It doesn't necessarily mean that the mainstream interpretation is right one. Besides judaism is not orignal but a mixture of zoroastrim and other persian/asian religions. When talking about myths, I doubt there's one original...

What I really meant that all religions share same roots, same teachings, pretty much similar essence in a host of ways. Of course there are differences, because each sect and each person is subjective and perhaps want to make distinctions to others... But no matter how good teachings a religion bear, in the end it is the people who interpret them and start making crusades... And religions and power has a long history of common affairs also. Like the case of Jesuits and Rome proves.
-v

edit on 14-11-2010 by v01i0 because: 914

Have you read the Torah? it seems your understanding of it is a bit shady.

its entirely legalistic. Throughout there is no indication of any dualism, as which is the theological basis of Zoroastrianism.

Maybe you like so many other naively assume that because symbols are alike, that must mean that every religion is stealing from one another.

Mythology is Theology. Its a metaphysical theory of reality hidden, cloaked behind allegory.

The traditional interpretation of Torah is that of the Rabbis. Many midrashes and the Mishna go back to the early common era, around 100 CE. This was a redaction of a knowledge which existed in earlier times in soley oral form, as this was the manner that the mystic knowledge was passed down from teacher to student (to preseve both discretion, and in nature, the esoteric is deeper and thus requires an internalization of it, as opposed to being put in writing and risking neglecting it. The reason this happened was because of the Roman persecution - 600 K Jews were killed, and so the rabbis were fearful that this knowledge would be lost if not put in writing). So you have the Rabbis circa 100 CE, writer of the mishna. You can pull that further back to the time of the pharisees who inherited the mantle of the Jewish priesthood from the biblical priests and prophets, who in turn recieved this knowledge from Moses.

Yes, there is hidden mystical knowledge in every tradition. In Egypt, where moses came from and babylon, persia and india. Everywhere where mythology, so did a esoteric, mystical tradition. But that does not mean that Judaism was a copy of the other religions when throughout the Torah theres a contant, non stop separation made between Israel and the 'nations' pl. The nations are considered like one, because they share the same underlying philosophy(today called the perennial philosophy or traditionalist school, which quite correctly excludes judaism). In fact, zoroastrianism, was derived from the early vedic religion of the indo-europeans. This religion influenced all religions of the indo - europeans, kabbalistically regarded as the children of Japheth. The Egyptians belonged to an entirely different set of peoples and yet they shared a great deal with the world, as did the babylonians. But Judaism i must restate is different. Only a cursory study and frankly, ignoramuses would assume because they read something somewhere that Judaism was originally pagan and eventually developed as they did today. That goes against every proof in the Torah to the contrary. The underlying philosophy is dramatically different.

Very good thread OP, S&F for that.
I been reading through the posts and I just want to state my opinion.
I believe the Jesuit's are a Roman order.
After sacking Rome the Visigoths set up shop in Spain.
I believe the fall of Rome was staged.
Anyways yes we can talk about the Jesuits!
Niceone!

reply to post by dontreally


Sorry for the delayed answer dontreally!

No, Torah is quite unfamiliar to me. I have only seen few out-of-context quotes perhaps.

I tend to think that in every religion there are certain "facts", yet most likely none of them gives one complete answer. Besides, I think that one shouldn't take any religious dogma as truth, yet I don't deny that there are some good thoughts in most of them.

I do not think that religions "steals" from each other, but rather that they all try to express certain truths about man and his psyche.

Maybe one day I have enough time and motivation to shuffle through Torah, which you seem to valuate so much. Then again, I feel like I have transcended all the religions and their dogmas in sense that they cannot teach me further. I may be wrong. If I have connection to god (speaking allegorically), what is the point of studying any more religious teachings?

I could say that I am in tranquility which has been attributed names like paradise, samadhi, nirvana and so on. This is of course my interpretation and people are free to disagree or call me what they will.

-v