MEDITATION, An internal battle when i begin to meditate now.

I have had a problem for almost a month now. Without going to far back, a year ago i started to meditate...i took it full on and it was quite an amazing thing. For whatever reason i somewhat just STOPPED meditating.
These past few months i have gotten back into it, but as of recently....almost EVERY TIME i meditate, i am un-able to get back to the stages i was at before. Only on 2 occasions have i experienced (what i believe) to be REAL meditation like i did beforehand.
I understand that it takes time and mental strength to build up where i left off. But the problem that i am having almost every time i meditate now is;
I seem to argue in my mind mentally. Almost every time there seems to be a voice in my head that is always disagree'ing with whatever my thoughts are. Quite literally SOMETHING In my mind is always negative and wants to argue and bicker with whatever my thoughts are.
I was wondering if anyone has any experience in this, or any idea on how to resolve this mental construct? I cant seem to LET GO of my thoughts, and just have a blank mind, because somehow someway....A random argument ensues in my mind.
ANY advice would be more than helpful and i would be MORE than grateful =]

It sounds as though it could have been a 'beginners mind' experieince that you were having initially, ie. a completely open mind with no expectations - the best kind of foundation for meditation.

Unfortunately, with experience come expectations.

Now you have a conflict because the experience of meditation has changed and you are resisting what is, trying to grasp at the experience you had in the past.

If you can just sit with what is going on, without condemning it or trying to change it, it will move on. It may not take you to the experience you had before - but the experience will evolve.

So, my main suggestion would be to stop trying to create the experience you had before and accept what is happening in the present moment when you are sitting.

Hope that's useful, lol!

Originally posted by wcitizen
It sounds as though it could have been a 'beginners mind' experieince that you were having initially, ie. a completely open mind with no expectations - the best kind of foundation for meditation.

Unfortunately, with experience come expectations.

Now you have a conflict because the experience of meditation has changed and you are resisting what is, trying to grasp at the experience you had in the past.

If you can just sit with what is going on, without condemning it or trying to change it, it will move on. It may not take you to the experience you had before - but the experience will evolve.

So, my main suggestion would be to stop trying to create the experience you had before and accept what is happening in the present moment when you are sitting.

Hope that's useful, lol!

Yes that is exactly what i feel somewhat if not MOST of the problem is. I remember watching a documentary and buddhist monks said its an amazing experience when you experience some type of metaphysical bliss...such as infinite consciousness etc. but at the same time its a risk because MOST mediators strive and DESIRE to have that experience again, and directly hold themselves back.

I do feel and i DO compare my present meditations to my past. My present just seem very boring, blank, and bare....I miss the old feelings meditation gave me, as well as the experience it gave. I think you are right when you say i should just LET GO and start a new.

you have to first realize the fallacy of your statement.

when 'I' meditate and 'my' mind all of that is illusion ... this ownership and identity is all illusion.

First you must realize that the mind is the projector that projects illusion, the matrix, etc.

You are not the mind, you are not the body, you are not the personality, likes/dislikes, etc ....none of those are you. So you say you want proof? Ok....

there is a part of you that is aware of the mind thinking, aware of the eyes seeing, aware of a body existing, aware of likes/dislikes....

so are you the awareness or are you that which awareness is aware of? Obviously you are awareness because you can be aware of mind, body, senses etc even before any of those functions take place.

So just let awareness be aware of itself. If the mind is going, thinking, arguing ....there is a quick realization that awareness is aware of the mind doing this ...and then a return to just awareness.

Awareness itself is just aware ....it is devoid of thoughts, likes/dislikes, opinions, personality, etc ......so anything that pops up is from the mind/ego complex and that is not you ...that is a false imposter......

Just sit there aware of awareness ........2-4 hours a day ...then the matrix crumbles and the real is seen.

If after reading and trying this you come back here in a day or two and say it doesn't work ....well then that aspect that says this doesnt work is the flase imposter mind/ego complex which isn't the real you ....yet awareness is aware of this imposter ......

just sit there, awareness aware of itself ....everything else will fall in place

Originally posted by dominicus
you have to first realize the fallacy of your statement.

when 'I' meditate and 'my' mind all of that is illusion ... this ownership and identity is all illusion.

First you must realize that the mind is the projector that projects illusion, the matrix, etc.

You are not the mind, you are not the body, you are not the personality, likes/dislikes, etc ....none of those are you. So you say you want proof? Ok....

there is a part of you that is aware of the mind thinking, aware of the eyes seeing, aware of a body existing, aware of likes/dislikes....

so are you the awareness or are you that which awareness is aware of? Obviously you are awareness because you can be aware of mind, body, senses etc even before any of those functions take place.

So just let awareness be aware of itself. If the mind is going, thinking, arguing ....there is a quick realization that awareness is aware of the mind doing this ...and then a return to just awareness.

Awareness itself is just aware ....it is devoid of thoughts, likes/dislikes, opinions, personality, etc ......so anything that pops up is from the mind/ego complex and that is not you ...that is a false imposter......

Just sit there aware of awareness ........2-4 hours a day ...then the matrix crumbles and the real is seen.

If after reading and trying this you come back here in a day or two and say it doesn't work ....well then that aspect that says this doesnt work is the flase imposter mind/ego complex which isn't the real you ....yet awareness is aware of this imposter ......

just sit there, awareness aware of itself ....everything else will fall in place

YES! Right all man exactly what is going on as of late.
Lately i have been realizing that, and the matrix has slowly but surely been falling down. My philosophical outlook and awareness has been quite great...it just feels as if my mind is jumbled up with all the information. I feel as if i need to DEFRAG my mental computer (meditation) and take the next step. I guess i addressed MY MIND, the way i did for the sake of confusion lol

Wow, excellent thread, sometimes I have the same problems as the OP. However for the master mediators on this site, what exactly am I suppose to feel? Should I feel myself being aware of my awareness or should I feel awareness from everything around me or universal awareness?

To me it sounds like you had quit for a while and now you want to jump back in and you expect the same results as before.
You would have to start again from scratch and prepare your mind like you did when you first started. You have to clear your mind and learn how to block your thoughts again. A little exercise that I do is to repeat the number 1 until a thought comes in to mind, then go to number 2 and so on, the goal is to stay on the same number as long as possible and try to do better next time.

reply to post by Quetzalcoatl12

Wow, excellent thread, sometimes I have the same problems as the OP. However for the master mediators on this site, what exactly am I suppose to feel? Should I feel myself being aware of my awareness or should I feel awareness from everything around me or universal awareness?

just sit there aware of awareness .......... this is the most potent. If this is done then awareness itself, as the real you, will reveal to you its source ...awareness will reveal where it comes from and then the Matrix collapses.

If the mind is jumbled ...that is not you ....disidentify from the ego ....identity, gender, your own name, your own personality ...all of that is ego and not real...

But awareness is real ...stay in that awareness aware of itself and the chains of the prison matrix break free.

For sum it takes a year, for others 3-5-10 sometimes whole lifetimes.

And when excuses pop up not to meditate ...its from the ego ...that is the enemy ...you are at war with yourself ...we all are.....

reply to post by kaskade



Ask: to whom do these thoughts occur.

Thoughts persist because we are interested in them, we give them energy by a continuing focus on them. Acknowledge the thought and use it as a pointer to that which is awareness. In my experience the thought then dissipates as your focus is on that which is the awareness and not the thought.

Just "BE" in that awareness.

Just my ..... ummmm .....errrrr .... thoughts LOL

[edit on 22-8-2010 by Emptiness Dancing]

Yours is a common problem as others had said, but I will offer a different take on the situation.

Back when the Beatles brought TM to the Western world, I joined in and loved it at first, making fast progress. but then I begin to have a serious interference. There was this creepy feeling that started in my lower back and worked its way up my spine the longer I tried. I had to stop.

I consulted one of the TM trainers and he gave me a frank assessment. His exact words were: "It's your own body fighting this better self that comes with deep meditation. Honestly, its #. But your body is saying, 'but it's MY # and refuses to let it go without a struggle."

In short, you may need an atitude (self-philosophy) adjustment to get over the hump. Still, simple plateauing without physical effects happens and, of course, are related to who you are. You can work through it.

reply to post by kaskade
I know, Ikind of have a problem like this, last night it was jazz music in right ear, and I couldn't hear what was being said in left ear.

The other morning I woke up from bad dream, and this voice was saying, I didn't do it, I didn't do it, so I'm not sure who did it.

Originally posted by dominicus
you have to first realize the fallacy of your statement.

when 'I' meditate and 'my' mind all of that is illusion ... this ownership and identity is all illusion.

First you must realize that the mind is the projector that projects illusion, the matrix, etc.

[SNIP]

just sit there, awareness aware of itself ....everything else will fall in place

excellent, awesome, splendid post.
saved to a notepad

seriously that put into words something i could never have hoped to explain

Edit: since we're on the topic... does anyone know some good tips for blocking out mundane thoughts before meditation?
sometimes i have trouble getting a clear mind in which to contemplate
some say focusing on breathing is a good method, but i have a very active mind and would love to be nudged in the right direction.

thanks...
riff


[edit on 23-8-2010 by riff-raff]

reply to post by riff-raff


112 meditation techniques:
112 techniques....

of course observing the breath is one of them.... the more you practice the easier it gets. The cool thing about the 112 techniques is that since all personalities are different, there something here for everyone.

[edit on 23-8-2010 by dominicus]

Plato says that without doubt, there can be no real knowledge. That negative voice is the counter-point to your point (i.e. where you want to go/higher states of consciousness). You have to argue the facts, rather than just arguing back and forth with yourself. Let the truth take you to higher dimensions. When your voice has a doubt, cancel it with the truth.

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by Quetzalcoatl12

 

just sit there aware of awareness .......... this is the most potent. If this is done then awareness itself, as the real you, will reveal to you its source ...awareness will reveal where it comes from and then the Matrix collapses.

If the mind is jumbled ...that is not you ....disidentify from the ego ....identity, gender, your own name, your own personality ...all of that is ego and not real...

But awareness is real ...stay in that awareness aware of itself and the chains of the prison matrix break free.

For sum it takes a year, for others 3-5-10 sometimes whole lifetimes.

And when excuses pop up not to meditate ...its from the ego ...that is the enemy ...you are at war with yourself ...we all are.....

Thank you for your brilliant answer to my question. I have to admit though, when I do meditate, it feels as if Im on the cusp of being aware of awareness only to have my "ego" pop up with a thought and sometimes that happens after I get rid all of my jumbled thoughts which takes me a while. As soon as I feel or sense a transition,POP,here comes a random thought. It's as if the ego knows that i'm trying to connect my real self. Sometimes I get frustrated, most of the time though I overcome frustration and try again. How do you quite the ego, when you've been told and taught all your life that the ego is the real self. When in fact its not?

reply to post by Emptiness Dancing


Yes I knew someone was going to beat me to the point. I agree with Emptiness Dancing. Anyone interested in any form of meditation should remember "that the mind is like a cage of monkeys" and that we learn over time to still the clamour. The reason for the quotation marks is simply because it is a direct life from the "Yoga sutras of Patanjali" which is an excellent book on yogic meditation.

You can also ask yourself what the difference was between now and then. Are you in a different room or meditating at a different time. Have your stress levels soared since those halcyon days.

Sometimes we seem to fall backwards before we make a huge leap forwards. Try to keep up your practice.

Best wishes

Tiger5




[edit on 24-8-2010 by Tiger5]

I had the same problem dude.

I always held this idea that I was a hardcore student, maybe I am, maybe we all are?

Because of changes in work I became really busy and never had any spare time. I went several months without a deep meditation, whereas before I'd meditate like once or twice a day for a couple hours, as well as do some Qi Gong in the morning, sun gazing, etc, all sorts of things, which became nothing.

So then I just became attached to living the "good life".. Taking in the experiences of life, I used to think it was natural or something and we should embrace our human side. And then something happened recently.

I'm like "the problem is I need to stop thinking like a human"... My concepts of identity needed a shift, there was just no interest in meditation or energy cultivation because I was approaching them from a shallow perspective. I changed as a person and I wasn't obsessed with power or anything like that. Meditation to me seemed to consist of..balancing out.. feeling pretty good and slipping into a dream like state and I just wasn't feeling like it was going anywhere. I did some reading on buddhism and realized underlying all of it I still had stuff in my mind I wanted to fix. I realized my attachments and I was suddenly more geared to rid myself of this. I reached the point where I realized it all seemed sort of mundane or hollow and I remembered that no matter what I do in life, it doesn't compare to that realization of self in those higher states, the simplicity in it all.

I realized when I was trying to get back into meditation how difficult it was and it was because my mind had many attachments, which I think of like distortions, i was going to make this chart about it, maybe I still will, about chakras and it made a lot of sense... but anyways.. I realized my mind will never be empty as long as i feel the attachment to think about certain stuff.

But getting back into meditation has another problem as well. It takes a LOT longer to reach those states.. When you're at your peak and the conditions are right, you know you can just go in a way deep place in a matter of 5 minutes sometimes. But getting back into it is difficult, don't push it.

The first day just try and get calm and try for 30 minutes, after that, just give it a rest. The next day, same thing, try stretching beforehand or do a laying down meditation which is easier for grounding / relaxing. If you can't hold still, you need to ground yourself... stretch, get some excercise or just wait until the end of the day. I find I can meditate when I first wake up and then sometime in the late afternoon, in between that is the deadzone unless i'm really tired still or the conditions are right. I just won't hold still, and when you have a wandering mind, it amplifies the problem.

So what I do is essentially go back to the beginning.. the underlying basics.. I do the counting and everything and focus on a little dot in my mind, everything I used to do when I was first starting.

It only takes you a little while to get back into it.

I know what you're feeling though and its a really crappy feeling, you feel like you've lost yourself. It's just phases in life.

For me I just had to take on a whole new direction with meditation, because despite that I wasn't doing it, I was still learning about myself and realizing I was searching for something more meaningful. So I went months without doing it but really for a while when I was doing it before I wish I was doing this.. You just become more aware of the underlying basics that it really is simple and a matter of our attachments to self-interest.

I'm back into meditation full-swing and I know think of myself more of a collective of cells, of universes. My whole attachment to the "I" has really changed.

You'll get back into it, just take small steps, and perhaps do some reading in the meantime, I found that really helped remind me what I already knew but forgot or didn't understand to that extent.

Peace.

reply to post by CavemanDD


Wow, I know this is the OP's thread but I must say, I've learned alot from you and dominicus. Change your thinking of yourself. Think of yourself as cells that are many universes. That makes alot of sense. We tend to classify ourselves differently from the vast Universe that we assume to know, when in fact, we store mini universes with in ourselves. Nevertheless, the vast Universe as we know it, in itself is one of many cells in one organism, in which there might be many organisms in that vast universe. So on and so on. It's sort of like the Russian nesting doll or babushka doll but infinite.

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl12
As soon as I feel or sense a transition,POP,here comes a random thought. It's as if the ego knows that i'm trying to connect my real self. Sometimes I get frustrated, most of the time though I overcome frustration and try again. How do you quite the ego, when you've been told and taught all your life that the ego is the real self. When in fact its not?

Anytime that you try to quiet the ego, you are accepting that it exists, and hence, it will be more prominent than before.

I know this really sounds too simple and sort of a cop out but:

Stop trying and just be.......it works..

reply to post by Quetzalcoatl12


Yeah man. I realized.. where is my identity located? What forms it? I'm thinking... is it a result of a collective mind of souls / universes inside me? I start thinking on these levels that I suddenly have a lot more responsibility and that treating my body poorly is like causing destructive ripples through the universes inside me. I think how I want this world my human body is in to be a nice place, for the universe to be a nice place and i'm thinking... is there some form of consciousness mirrored inside me thinking the same thing?

All these thoughts came when i started reading some more Qi Gong stuff and this guy was talking about how there is a spirit in your liver and various organs and I just entertained the thought that I wasn't giving enough consideration that I am a collective.

After that, there was I... only WE.. or the ONE.. I feel like a team! ha.

Its like the dolls as you say, universes within universes. This thing I was reading, this guru said he could see trains and cities inside his body and thought there must be universes inside him. Think about it when you start getting sub-atomic, what we classify as "just a molecule" or a chemical or something as you go smaller and smaller its like pulsating light, go in deeper and slow it down and maybe you can see stars and galaxies or a different looking equivalent.

Anyways, the turning point for me was to realize my attachments were the answer, that suddenly the fun ego desires were suddenly the point of focus, and that I became more conscious and compassionate of the effects of my selfish interests.