Revelation; The Beast and the Temple

Originally posted by iamnot
these 30 days fill in the missing link in the one week/7 year covenant. Half and half would be 1260 and 1260 but in Daniel 12:11, the angel tells Daniel that from the time the abomination is set shall be 1290 days.

The extra 30 days come from this decree. So the witnesses prophecy for 1260 days but at the 1230 mark, the wicked ones up the ante, put in this decree for 30 days, thus begins the abomination. The witnesses continue their testimony to fulfil the 1260 days

I have a different understanding of the time when the two witnesses start.
To me, the witnesses are part of the church's reaction to the "war on the saints" and the "trampling over the holy city", which means they would be happening at the same time, in the second batch of 1260 days rather than the first (in other words, I'm equating this with the "forty-two months").

On the other hand, this doesn't affect your argument about when the Abomination starts. In fact you may be bringing me round to this theory. Up to now, my way of dealing with the "1290 days" reference has been to ignore it. On the other hand again (having double-checked Daniel ch9), Daniel does say that the "causing of the sacrifice to cease" is for "half a week", which seems to identify it with the 1260 days after all.

I have been reading some accounts of people meditating and through a prayer called the 'great invocation' they actually see 'maitreya' in a vision. This 'great invocation' could be the prayer they want to replace the Lord's prayer with. Doing that would take away the daily sacrifice, our daily prayer in which we thank God for our daily bread, the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ.

That's a very interesting possibility.
Another possible "substitute" invocation would be one involving Gaia.
It might depend on who won the race for converts.
One practical consideration, though; the authorities could take practical steps to prevent the celebration of the corporate eucharist, whereas they could not prevent the private use of the Lord's prayer. Although they could keep it out of public worship.

I have considered and wondered about the privacy factor. If these people are actually seeing the 'maitreya' figure on another conscious/subconscious level however, and the figure is seeing them, I wonder if your privacy is invaded.

It reminds me of lord of the rings, when they entered that other realm, they could be seen. Nothing is hidden right?

reply to post by iamnot

Perhaps you should put that question to any Maitreya believers you come across and see what they say. It might not have occurred to them- perhaps they will say they don't mind. For anyone who thinks the visions are an illusion, the question wouldn't apply.

Originally posted by pthena
I would guess that you grew up in the UK by your Tony Hancock quote. I just read Chapter 2 of Victoria Clark's book, "This New English Israel", the early Christian Zionists were Puritans, and they took off to the Colonies.

Yes, my reference to "the lad himself" does give away my origins, as intended. Though he did get to Australia, and met his sad end there.

My other interest being history, I'm curious to know some of those Puritan names.
I know it was in Cromwell's time that the Jews started coming back to England. A typically English indirect solution; the committee appointed to look into the matter came to no decision, but did manage to establish that there was no law on the statute books formally excluding them. It was only necessary then for Jews to start taking advantage of that.

reply to post by DISRAELI
It will take me some time to assemble names. In the Colonies: the Cottons, the Mathers, Cotton Mather, John Winthrop; these are names with Huge impact on American Christian thought.

Joanna and Ebenezer Cartwright, a mother and son, wrote a letter to Oliver Cromwell begging him to speed England's divine rehabilitation by making her 'the first and the readiest to transport Izraell's sons and daughters in their ships to the Land promised to their forefathers'. The Netherlands had a large Jewish community in the mid-seventeenth century but England did not, having banished or murdered some 16,000 English Jews almost four hundred years earlier, on the orders of Edward I. Cromwell ignored the Cartwrights' letter, he favoured re-admitting the Jews. A good Calvinist, he respected God's Chosen People. He also calculated they could be useful to him, both as spies against the Dutch and as merchants.
Victoria Cross, Ibid pgg 31,32

Her book is fairly tight packed with names and history, I'll probably have to re-read to assemble some names.

An interesting fact, Sir Isaac Newton used calculations from Lurianic Kabbala to arrive at 1948 as the year of the conversion and restoration of Israel. Sabbatai Zevi used the same Lurianic Kabbala to declare himself Messiah, and set 1666 as the date. His movement effected all of Europe, Egypt, Ottoman Empire. It was really big.



[edit on 26-8-2010 by pthena]

reply to post by pthena

Thank you for that information.
I wonder how they expected the Ottoman Turks to react to such a move?
I'll have to see what I've got that covers Anglo-Turkish diplomacy.

reply to post by DISRAELI
Sabbatai converted to Islam to save his head. His movement went underground after that. His movement wasn't associated with England.



[edit on 26-8-2010 by pthena]

reply to post by pthena

I was actually expressing puzzlement about what the Cartwrights were expecting. Because the implication is that they were asking for the Jews to be taken to Palestine without considering whether the Ottoman rulers would allow them off the ships at the other end of the journey. Cromwellian diplomacy had a long reach, but probably not that far. No wonder he ignored the suggestion.



[edit on 26-8-2010 by DISRAELI]

reply to post by DISRAELI

Now the Beast, armed with political power, could undoubtedly find it possible to seize control of the outward forms of the church, such as the buildings, the structures of organisation, and the official leadership. That would give him enough control to enable him to force through the kind of policies which would fit the pattern we've already observed.

Using the Apotelesmatic principle I see that all this has happened before. Specifically during the Third Reich 1930s and 1940s. For the sake of Nationalism, the Christian theologies were subverted, so that the changed theology supported extreme nationalism. Hitler was merely a figurehead for the substitute god, which was the state itself. I haven't read all the Nazi theology yet, so may have to revise my statements.

Only a small group of theologians rejected the national Christianity and signed the Barmen Declaration.

The Third Reich did not manage to control the world. Since WWII, however, the US is in that sort of position, with over 800 military bases in other countries around the world. American Christianity has been and is morphing into an extreme nationalist form, such that American and Christian are synonymous in the minds of very many American Christians. To kill for America is to kill for god. Sounds like a catchy slogan. Consider that some generals have actually said that.

The US is a bigger beast than Nazi Germany ever became. Is there any question why the Christian core of Nazi belief has been hidden from public discussion!



[edit on 26-8-2010 by pthena]

reply to post by DISRAELI

I was actually expressing puzzlement about what the Cartwrights were expecting.

Religious zealots care nothing for practical considerations such as international affairs. Once they "realize" they know what God wants. They press forward, trusting God to work out the details. So far, historically, all the movements by the zealots have resulted in great human suffering. I don't expect the pattern to change.

Originally posted by pthena
Specifically during the Third Reich 1930s and 1840s. For the sake of Nationalism, the Christian theologies were subverted, so that the changed theology supported extreme nationalism. Hitler was merely a figurehead for the substitute god, which was the state itself. I haven't read all the Nazi theology yet, so may have to revise my statements.

Having looked at this period when studying church history, I've used the same analogy itself. Particularly in my "Great leader and antichrist" thread. And I agree that for practical purposes the Nazi religion was the Reich, or perhaps rather the Volk (making this a classic example of what Toynbee calls "corporate self-worship"). I don't know in detail how that got into church statements, but I can imagine.

reply to post by DISRAELI
I haven't gotten around to reading all your threads yet.
This is the verse Christian Zionists use in order to justify killing.

GE 12:3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you."

They worship this verse! The blessing of God on America is in direct proportion to how much US kills for the so-called Jewish State of Israel, and arms that state to kill and dispossess Palestinians.

They are blinded by the deluding one himself!

The blessing was to Abraham. They are killing Abrahams decendents in the land of Abraham. The curse is upon the so-called Jewish State of Israel and on the American Empire, two horns of the two-horned beast.

Moreover, by killing and driving out Abraham, the two-horned beast is preventing(robbing) the blessing intended for all the peoples of the earth.

All this should be painfully obvious. It shouldn't even have to be said. This is happening now. The liar and murderer from the beginning is exercising complete control in very many American Christian churches right now, and through it, the US military, and through that, the world, or so they plan.

Have you done "Come out from among them my people" yet?

[edit on 26-8-2010 by pthena]

Originally posted by pthena
Have you done "Come out from among them my people" yet?

No, not yet. Either just before Christmas or in the New Year, because I will need five threads, I think, to get through ch17. She's a complicated lady.

We were talking about the Temple. I gather from you, I think, that the support of American chuches for Zionism is mainly financial. And are they specifically financing temple-building projects? Or helping them in other ways?

reply to post by DISRAELI

We were talking about the Temple. I gather from you, I think, that the support of American chuches for Zionism is mainly financial. And are they specifically financing temple-building projects? Or helping them in other ways?

Yes to financial, yes to temple building project, yes to other ways.
In this thread Knesset Outsources US Campus Public Diplomacy to Militant Christian Zionists I bring up propaganda efforts, and name some of the groups. Well financed. The same people which are behind the stirring up of anti-Muslim hatred in NYC.

Today's headlines on Democracy Now!

New York Taxi Driver Stabbed in Anti-Muslim Attack
The ongoing hysteria over a proposed Islamic cultural center near Ground Zero appears to be fueling anti-Muslim attacks both here in New York and nationwide. A New York City taxi driver was stabbed multiple times Tuesday after a drunken passenger determined he is a Muslim. The victim, Ahmed Sharif, was slashed across his face, neck and hands. Sharif says the suspect, Michael Enright, had asked him several questions about his religion, including whether he’s a Muslim and observing Ramadan. Enright recently returned from Afghanistan, where he was filming US troops for a documentary. As he attacked Sharif, Enright is said to have yelled, "Consider this a checkpoint."
. . .
Religious, Civic Groups Form NY Coalition to Back Islamic Center
News of the attack came as a new coalition was launched to support the proposed Islamic cultural center.
. . .
Imam Abdur-Rashid: "There have been attacks on masjids. There have been vandalizations. There have been physical assaults on individuals. This thing is escalating because of the dialogue and because somber minds are not prevailing in this country. And so, we’re concerned about it, but our silence for so long has been our consent, you know, that they can do whatever they want. But we’re not going to be silent no more."

Islamic Center Vandalized in California; Kentucky Board Rejects Mosque

The American Zionist Christians are the main source of funding for the illegal Jewish settlements in Palestine through Christians United for Israel.
Here's another link: Ron Paul: Left and the Right Demagogue Mosque, Islam

Look up The Temple Institute and Christians United for Israel: We speak and act with one voice in support of Israel I've read breakdowns of how much money is pouring into the illegal settlements, can't quite remember where just now.

Well financed propaganda, well financed political lobbies, well financed political pressure groups.

The New American National Religion: Anti-Arab, Anti-Muslim, Pro-ignorance, Pro-Zionist Israel, Pro-US as vassal of Israel, pro-stone temple, pro-anti-Christ sitting in stone temple, pro-armageddon, pro-lots of death to humans while the "raptured elect" clap and cheer in heaven.

Not much of Jesus in all that, he's reduced to being the bus driver for the rapture.


[edit on 26-8-2010 by pthena]

Originally posted by pthena
Look up The Temple Institute ...

Thank you very much for supplying all those links.
The one quoted above seems to be the one most relevant to my main query about the "Third temple" hope, but there's obviously a lot of material even in that.

I think I would distinguish between two things;
a)assuming that a "Third Temple" will be built.
b)doing something towards building it or encouraging others to build it.
Because doing something to build it carries the danger of provoking war.
On its own, the assumption that somebody will build it sometime doesn't carry the same danger.

I'm interested in the claim, which I read in various places, that work on Temple Mount could provoke war, and that misguided Christian support for it would bear part of the responsibility.
You've given me the Temple Institute, a Jewish body which wants to build the Temple.
So what we need to complete the case is evidence of Christian support for the Temple Institute or similar bodies.
Christian support for Zionism in general or Israel in general isn't really a direct enough link.

[edit on 26-8-2010 by DISRAELI]

reply to post by DISRAELI
You seem to be holding me to my claim to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Christian Zionism is in fact the anti-Christ of today. Remember that the mark of the Beast can be on either the forehead or on the hand.

So what we need to complete the case is evidence of Christian support for the Temple Institute or similar bodies.

Since its foundation, the Temple Institute has become a fixture for Americans on evangelical tours of Israel. Thanks largely to their donations, the Temple Institute has so far spent $US27 million ($A29 million) on preparations.

''We started with $US100,'' says Mr Glick. ''There are 70 million evangelical Christians around the world, and most of them have become Israel's strongest supporters.''
Faithful funds help museum prepare for the end

My case is not built upon whether or not some temple is built, but upon the damage already done to human life, habitation, and livelihood because of the obsession for a stone temple in the minds and teaching of vary influential Christian teachers primarily in the US.

The mark on the hand would indicate actual work toward some thing. Head or hand or both is something to be avoided, in my opinion.

Consider this: The Nazi theology was developed primarily among the Protestant and Congregational Christians. The Vatican, though not particularly believing it went along as a political expedient.

In the US now, though the Zionist doctrine is believed in primarily among the Pentecostals and Fundamentalist Dispensationalists and Independent Bible Only groups, Roman Catholics have attached themselves to the social issues wing for perception of political clout.

Mormons who have no care whatsoever for Mid East territory since they have their own version of Zion on North America, nevertheless attach themselves for the sake of the extreme militant nationalism afforded.

Christian support for Zionism in general or Israel in general isn't really a direct enough link.

Built or not, it's in people's heads and in their hearts, pushing out thoughts or intentions for a true Christian temple consisting of love for and care for all. The job of the church, from the beginning has been to demonstrate love to such an extent that Christ is visibly displayed. If a group of people calls itself the church but is more interested in stone temples and helping one group of people do ethnic cleansing against another group, that church is not Christian, but anti-Christian.

Forehead, hand, or both, = get along with the forces governing the world at the expense of what God desires.

My case does not rest on what may or may not happen in the future, but rather what has been done against humanity and what is currently being done against humanity in the name of "the Christian hope"

On its own, the assumption that somebody will build it sometime doesn't carry the same danger.

The danger is in complete inaction to prevent it.
It doesn't have to happen.
Right now, it can and should be stopped. The stormtroopers are not yet at every street corner. No one in America need even die to prevent it.
All it would take is for them to say, "no, not on my watch." Quit going to churches that send money for illegal settlements, Zionist propaganda, Zionist political pressure groups. Tune those preachers out, cut off their funds. Boycott. Don't vote for politicians who approve of Israelis killing people including Americans with impunity. USS Liberty, Rachel Corrie, the ship Rachel Corrie.

Boycott Zionism now. This doesn't have to happen.


[edit on 27-8-2010 by pthena]

reply to post by pthena

The crime? Not recognizing the current Zionist State of Israel as legitimate.

I've been hearing this argument on the radio lately against the Islamic center in Lower Manhattan, "Islam believes in forcing everyone into conversion, death, or slavery".
We need to look at our own-selves for what we are doing, forcing everyone into Zionism.

reply to post by jmdewey60

We need to look at our own-selves for what we are doing, forcing everyone into Zionism.

Logs and motes? America can't possibly have a log in its eye!

After WWII a "good German" was one who admitted that they had done something wrong. A bad German then was one who admitted to no wrong.

I think the vast majority of Americans fit into the bad American mold.
Just a few excuses:

* anyone who expresses the least amount of dissent faces the general hatred of the public

* anyone who expresses the least amount of dissent may lose his or her job or livelihood

* anything I might have done wouldn't have made any difference

* the people who are doing the work of the government are 'our troops', and must be supported in whatever they have to do on our behalf

* the alleged victims of my government aren't fully human, and their lives aren't worth even the slightest inconvenience or risk to our lives

* the alleged victims of my government have a false and evil religion, and my true religion gives me the right to eliminate them

* my country right or wrong (no, sorry, that is someone else - the Germans weren't that stupid)
The "Good German" syndrome - Third World Traveler

[edit on 27-8-2010 by pthena]

Originally posted by pthena
You seem to be holding me to my claim to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Christian Zionism is in fact the anti-Christ of today...
My case is not built upon whether or not some temple is built,..Built or not, it's in people's heads and in their hearts, pushing out thoughts or intentions for a true Christian temple consisting of love for and care for all.

It was really more a case of reminding ourselves that "the temple" was the orginal OP theme, so that focussing on the meaning of "Temple" would be a relevant way of developing that theme.

[edit on 27-8-2010 by DISRAELI]

the thing is, dont waste your time and loose focus of the thing you are suppose to be looking at with distractions seeking knowledge. Wisdom shows all.

Focus, be still and quiet, but alert. If you are suppose to know this detail.... then you will.....KNOW....trust me.