True Capitalism has been dead for a long time, Commercial Oligarchy rules in the present.

Originally posted by airspoon
A very well done thread, I think everyone here should read it. As far as our current system, I like to call it socio-fascism, incorporating a little of both, which makes it resemble neither. In true capitalism, the markets are free and regulate themselves. The consumer dictates supply and demand. Instead, what we have today is the corporations manipulating and the government regulating the market as to benefit the corporations in its favor. Instead of the consumer deciding the direction of the market, the market, at the hands of those manipulating it, is deciding the direction of the consumer.

I would like to add in true socialism all social services would be available to all without restriction, the greater good of all being the most important aspect. Nobody should starve ever. Nobody should be forced to cut their food budget, or medical care to pay their housing costs. All basic necessities of life should be a community endeavor. All should receive the basic of these services without cost. In my own version of socialism the government would be limited, and the basic services it supplies free to the public unregulated and without cost. When I say basic necessities I mean exactly that. Basic food, housing, medical care. No need to hire massive amounts of government workers to regulate benefits. Rich get free medical as well, free food, and free housing if they so desire. However, most will not want the basic form of housing they will opt to not participate. Some rich will chose government housing to collect more wealth. The choice should be with the individual. If they want gourmet meals they can buy them. If they want a bag of rice and corn they can go pick it up at the government surplus store for free.

Imagine if every government worker actually was bought and paid for by the taxes of transactions. That most government workers were farmers, home builders, and doctors. All education costs for these trades funded by the public. If the system were as I envision it then the taxes to pay for these services and employees are strictly for the benefit of everyone equally, and consumable by everyone without restriction. There would be a surplus of doctors as anyone could become educated as such. It is the only fair way, socialism could work. Of course this means that private business would have to offer a far superior product then the government version to persuade people to spend their money on these luxury services.

Most people would still spend money on basic necessities through private companies. Corner stores would still sell a Snickers bar or a bag of chips, a coke, or a ice cream as these would not be essential food items. Not much would change but the freedom experienced by the average person who is worried they may be homeless next month. Or the family that has to slash their food bill to afford to treat an injured family member. Default credit would become less and less. Like the show Big Brother, people eating "slop" wouldn't want to be on slop if they could afford to obtain better products without sacrificing their ability to live.

reply to post by StumpDrummer


With the foreclosure situation it isn't always what it seems.

My parents bought a house they could afford and made the payment on time for years. Since the loan wasn't fixed after 4 years of living in the house the bank kept raising the payment each month until my parents couldn't afford to pay it.

So now the bank has all the payments they successfully made and the house. The bank just worked in pure greed.

Yes, my parents shouldn't have took out a non-fixed rate loan. But the bank didn't have to raise the payment until it wasn't affordable. They just wanted to scam people to get even more rich.

Thank you. I am so glad to see this thread on here. It always amazes me that so many people enthusiastically argue in favor of the current commercial oligarchy when they think that they are arguing in favor of capitalism.

Having a small number of corporations that dominate the entire market is not capitalism. Also, it doesn't help that corporations are political entities now either.

EDIT: spelling

[edit on 20-8-2010 by beansanmash]

It is almost like they have all given up, accepted their bondage, and became complacent, scares the life out of me!!

You could be right here. We are dealing with a severely depressed and disillusioned populace.

Their dreams of "The freedom to pursue happieness etc etc." devolved into a world where commerce dictates your life, dictates what your consumer-demands have to be. Where fads dictate whoYou are and what You're worth.

Maybe we should start with giving people some encouraging and support. You know? The Individual as a useful, and esteemed part of society, not just the faceless corporations?

First heal our spirit before we start fixing the economy?

Have to admit though that I do not know how to uplift those that are so downtrodden, that they truly believe their "slavemaster" i.e. corporations, mean well. Stockholm syndrome, so to speak.

A new optimism should be the base. From there on we can work our way back to the ideals of the Founding fathers.

Yes ,I know "naive idealism"..... Burt we have to start somewhere.


[edit on 8/20/2010 by diakrite]

Originally posted by AmosGraber
reply to post by zzombie

 

I think this point by point breakdown of fascism by Dr. Lawrence Britt (a political scientist) is pretty close to accurate. Fascism in its simplest definition is basically extreme nationalism. It is the dichotomy to communism. Communism is on the extreme left, while fascism is on the extreme right; Those who run the commerical oligarchies use these concepts to keep us all acting like gregarious sheep walking in line into their den of wolves. How many can you check off as being part of our current countries political belief system?:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.check!

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.Check!

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.check!

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.check!

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.largely check

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.check!

[edit on 20-8-2010 by AmosGraber]

Oh Lord,, That's quite the painful mirror You are making us look in... Scary, but it's nowadays reality ,it seems. "Il Duce" won after all. eeeek!



[edit on 8/20/2010 by diakrite]

reply to post by ExPostFacto


I think the struggle for survival is still the best motivator. I would like to see government kept within its bounds.

With an evenly enforced fair set of rules, the market system is the best economic situation in my opinion.

I am all for using government to help people out when they run into hard times, but I don't think that helping hand should lead to life long dependence on the government, unless someone is honestly physically unable to work. I think retraining should be offered as well.

If people think they can get by without working, then they will take advantage at the first opportunity. That is human nature, just like greed.

reply to post by StumpDrummer


Yeah right, those states below the mason/dixon line are the biggest receivers of government money.

Most of the military budget goes to the southern states, sent there because the south didn't have any industry of its own. It has been welfare for a long time. Not to mention, the wars fought to keep the oil flowing for Texas.

Robots, do that. The next step is to start making low cost robots, and bring automated production to the small business level.

reply to post by poet1b


But, wouldn't that make the jobs more valuable for those that wanted to work? Doesn't the current system make corporations and government dependent on each other? Free-markets are a great idea, but we have to recognize that others will work hard to corner a market using profits or the control of resources to make themselves more powerful. There is also another issue concerning automation. We are in an age where when a company automates many lose their jobs...tax revenues are driven down. When jobs are not abundant and those in control seek to hang onto their monies and profit, the average person suffers.

If we are supposed to be a nation built for the common good, is free-markets where one person starves at the expense of others gain for the common good...or, for a person or group of persons profits? Where one person is homeless while millions of homes sit vacant because someone owns it acceptable?

To be clear I am not for either socialism or capitalism as current understanding and MSM preach it. However, I am for limited government and the ability for private persons to regulate their own affairs without protection or benefits from the government. Let all those terrible companies be sued under common laws for the maximum amount possible. Let all those that offend the common good go out of business. Our system though protects employers, because of tax revenues and job creation abilities and sells the same to the average person as good for the common good.

reply to post by poet1b


Can you show me the proof on all that "stuff" ie how much gov money goes to the south specifically per state

should everyone live in a 250k house or settle for one they can afford around 125k or better yet do what a neighbor of mine did build your own house...its not rocket science ,...though you might get a splinter or 2 and you might even break a sweat

I think theres a book called "Building a house for Dummies"

to create Ideal Social System is old hobby for different philosophers through dozens years but they, all, used to forget miserable trifle -- mankind factor. if we give CCCP for example, he was destructed not with lack & uselessness of ideology, but with internal idiots & traitors. if we give modern capitalism, what's its Atlas? no doubt, it's Profit, Profit is true God of Capitalism. however, True Job cannot give super profit because True Human has Conscience & Mind which stopped him from greediness, cheating etc.
True Human knows simple moment: short - term advantage makes long-term troubles (however, short - term advantage spews out very good Profit).

Capitalism as a pure thing, or close to pure really failed years ago. All that happens is it becomes a dictatorship of the few. People are far too quick to forget history, theres the Tulip bubble for one. Markets don't self regulate well all the time, people get greedy, also the wealth becomes concentrated. It isn't about who works hardest will get rewarded, its about how your position is already, because the rich dictate the wages in reality. Capitalism brings about a lot of development rapidly, but at the same time, its at the cost of those who are right at the bottom.

Theres a good reason we moved away from anything resembling pure Capitalism, no matter what fox news says, it doesn't work well or help people unless a society was pretty much already on par.

reply to post by StumpDrummer


Here ya go, links showing how southern and red states feed the most at the federal trough, and pay less money. The real welfare queens.

manyeyes.alphaworks.ibm.com...

taxprof.typepad.com...

And who pays for it.

www.statemaster.com...

So are you going to add the book "Building a house for Dummies" to your large collection of other books for dummies? Or do you already own it

Personally, I am pissed about the bailout. If they are going to bailout people who bought homes they could not afford, then what are they going to do for the rest of us.

You are right about starting your own business too.

reply to post by ExPostFacto


I don't believe in the free market either. See my post on the first page.

I like Clinton's third way economics. It was working fine until Newt screwed it all up with his contract on America.

All bj's aside

James Madison warned about big the Rockefeller Syndrome and class rift. He warned years ago about it.

He believed monopolies should be local if they were to be had. He actualy believed that locals had obligations localy.

I keep thinking about it... I keep plotting it all out.

As long as humans are human, there will never be a system that survives indefinitely, if at all.

The fact is that there will always be some people who are more popular than the rest. As long as this is the case, there will not be equality in a society, whether it be economically, politically, or, obviously, socially.

I understand the points you made, where it came from and where it applies today.

Unions have been used politically to gain votes.
They are necessary to ensure that the workers earn a fair wage.
Unfortunately, unions have been 'used' to increase the wage to a point where they are uncompetitive with world labor prices.
This was done intentionally by the actions of international bankers and certain illuminati folks.

Tarriffs are a remedy for the short term and tax benefits for 'in country' prodution in the short term could bring back the vitality America needs to bring back manufacturing to the economy.

Unfortunately, lobbyists looking after their own profit at the expense the American public have sold this country out.....with intention. They are to pay a price for this. This will be seen for what it is soon enough. The Light always prevails in the end. You 'should' know this by now. History repeats. Wisdom is what you make of it.

Bring back manufacturing to this country.
Bring back the rewards necessary to encourage productivity and creativity in the US.

Bring back troops stationed in foriegn countries of which have no other purpose than to promote imperialism to the benefit of the few.....at the expense of the American people. I know of no other American that wishes to be fighting in ANY muslim country for any reason.

There is much more to say though I prefer to comment at another time.

America is the last country for the NWO to 'control'. It will not work here in America. Freedom is known and understood here in America. It will not work. Please return the superman capes to the closet where they belong. Americans are not subjects and never will be.

The awareness/disclosure project is in motion and can not be reversed.
It is up to those with too much supposed power and authority to recognize these facts before they are seen for who they are and what they intend to Do to America.

Do the right thing or suffer the consequences.
You know what they are though choose to ignore the facts at hand.
Do the Right thing.
It is in 'your' better interest as well as that of the people.
NAFTA was a scheme of which Perot's charts attempted to reveal.
The people did not listen and are now suffering the consequence.

Do the Right Thing.
There is No other choice from here forward.
NWO will fail.
It is 'unnatural'.
You should know this.
It is common sense.

In the future, paper currency will be history though in the interim it is necessary to balance fact with fiction.


[edit on 20-8-2010 by Perseus Apex]

You got me crying; I never knew there were other capitalist out there.
Second line. S&F

I couldnt agree more capitalism is leading exactly where socialism/fascism/communism and all other ism's led people to,the road to serfdom.The control of the majority by the minority via wealth.

Very well thought out and I agree. We have gotten into this convoluted mess that evolved right under our noses and now channels the bulk of the wealth to the very top.

I've talked to some "staunch conservatives" who defend out-sourcing. The typical attitude is, "a businessman should be able to do whatever he has to do to increase profits", short of breaking the law. Let me lay out my own interpretation:

First of all, Conservatives lack some fundamental characteristics that contribute to our demise. For one, they have no vision of the greater good and secondly, they have no real foresight. If they do, they just don't care. Outsourcing is my case in point. Most business-minded Conservatives will tell you that by outsourcing "everybody wins" because they get products and services cheaper and thus can sell them cheaper. If the primary goal, as a nation and a society was to get "stuff" as cheap as possible, then that would be right, but that's where conservative business people (or all pro-capitalism types for that matter) are missing the big picture.

Case in point: The auto industry. First of all, consider the amount of industry created by the automobile. Really think about the millions of jobs created since the first Model-T. Think about the number of businesses created to manufacture the parts. It's mind boggling to consider what the auto industry has done for our economy. Now, imagine that Henry Ford had the ability and technology to outsource all of those jobs, like we do today. How different do you think things would be? The millions of jobs that wouldn't have happened, the thousands of businesses that generated billions, if not trillions of dollars due to the auto industry, all gone. I would argue we would be a very different nation. And what would have been the added benefit? Cheaper cars? Kind of hard to buy a car at any cost if there aren't any jobs and the economy is anemic.

My point is, the benefit in any industry isn't just the product itself but rather the contribution to the greater good! Like our economy and the jobs created. It is sickening to consider how little our innovation really benefits the country as a whole. Whereas an innovative idea or product used to be of great benefit to our economy and we benefited as a nation, now the only people who really benefit are those at the upper reaches of big business, that's it. How do we, the citizens benefit? We have another cheap product to spend our money on. Period. I'm not saying we don't generate ANY jobs, I'm just saying it's a minute amount compared to what it used to be.

I would gladly pay more for my large screen TV in exchange for making them 100% in the USA and keeping people employed. The same goes for a thousand other products we "invent" but don't really benefit from. The VCR was invented in the U.S.A. but in generated next to zero revenue for us. The "Big Dogs" at the top made their millions from the technology then gave it away to the Japanese, Koreans, etc, to produce and sell back to us. Does anybody remember RCA, Zenith, Curtis-Mathes? They used to be some of the best TV's on the market. All gone.

The biggest reason for this whole dynamic is "free trade" between nations. If the US stayed a monolith and imposed huge excise taxes on imports and made it expensive to sell to us, we wouldn't have this problem. In short, the wealthiest nation in the world cannot compete with the poorest nation in the world. It's not a level playing field. We're paying high school drop-outs $60-$75/Hr. to bolt a bumper to a car and other countries do it for a dollar an hour. Again, the crooks at the top benefit while the whole of our nation suffers for it. The greater good has been compromised because the people that "matter" are getting rich so they don't care.

I'm surely not an economist but I have a great deal of common sense and free trade and outsourcing is like handing our economy to competing countries.

There never is, or was, or is gonna be, any of these things as you all like to say. Such as pure capitalism, socialism, Communism, fascism, or all other isms that people think are the way now, or any other ideology that people will think is the way in the future.

capitalism: Doctrine that private ownership and free markets should govern economies

Do you see what is wrong with this definition... It contradicts itself, it is not possible to have private ownership which leads to corporate entities eventually, any way you slice it. And then expect to have free markets for all, it's like expecting to mix oil and water into one liquid form, one will float on top of the other. Humans are not above nature, they are but a step for nature to go on its way up, do not try to break the rules..... Or actually go ahead and try, but for every action there is a reaction, the only true way to learn anything is the hard way... for some and all.

Private ownership does govern free markets, so you all have capitalism, you all own and are owned. Oil floats on water= corporations/capitalism floats on the masses.