2nd American Civil War theory

reply to post by AzoriaCorp

I do not drink Dude. And no pills and stuff.

You started it and I called You out on your hidden motives.. Now Who needs the xanax?

Originally posted by AzoriaCorp

Originally posted by ProjectJimmy

Originally posted by Freeborn
As an outsider looking in I am amazed that so many people think things have got that bad that they would willingly go to war with and kill their fellow countrymen!

I don't think it would be allowed to develop that way, the knock on effect of any American Civil War would be catastrophic for the whole of the world.

These wishing war do not share the views of most Americans mate, they are really to the US what the IRA is to Northern Ireland.

There is a small minority in the United States that is preparing for war on their countrymen, but for the vast majority of the country these kind of thoughts, let alone conversations don't even occur.

Here you are seeing a great many very extreme opinions being voiced. Not even all of the militia movement thinks this way, and the armchair generals calling for a second civil war will probably never get their way.

As it was said some pages ago here, thank god the American people are not insane or idiotic enough to go for this.

Its not idiotic or insane for the American people to change their government when it no longer serves their interests. Actually you just called the founding fathers crazy and extreme. The founding fathers specifically listed for the people to change the government if they see it necessary.

"when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government" (emphasis added). US Declaration of Independence.

Of course there will be people who agree and disagree. Which means there will be a fight between those differing peoples. ie CIVIL WAR

No one here is advocating or planning to attack their countrymen. No one wants death or destruction here, nor are they proposing it. SH!T This site has some serious trolls...

[edit on 20-8-2010 by AzoriaCorp]

Settle down there mate, first of all for a group of men in the late-1700s to call for a nation based on liberty was in fact extreme for their time, but that does not at all mean they were wrong.

You sir, are no founding father, your thread started with a prediction of a civil war and did not in any way go about trying to defuse or remedy the situation. By that, it appears that you do indeed want war.

You are proposing that states within an indivisible union leave. You propose the end of the Union, because you do not see eye to eye with the majority of the citizens of your country. This is not at all the view of someone with a mind for democratic government or the Republic in which you live.

Look at the map you posted on the first page, the majority of the people in the US live in the states that you paint as being against you. Since you don't like being in the minority you wish to split the Union and form a new nation in which you are the majority. This is the viewpoint of a childish and spoiled tyrant people, not the enlightened and society-minded nation that was envisioned by those so vaunted Founding Fathers.

A greater moral ground would be taken therefore by trying to convince the people of your viewpoint. If the majority still does not agree with you at that point then, once your ideas have truly been weighed in the public sphere, then they are found wanting by the majority. It is very possible, as with any theories that the ones you have simply are bad ideas.

If you feel that you must cause division and rebellion to be heard as opposed to the processes outlined in your nation's constitution then perhaps this should give you pause.

A ballot box is a much more American way to empower change than an ammo box, at least that is how your country would like to believe themselves to be.

If you do rebel you will just prove what the monarchs of the Early Modern Period said of The Great Experiment, that the masses were to idiotic, brutish and emotional to govern themselves without turning on each other. Thankfully as I have pointed out, the vast majority of Americans are nowhere near the point of rebellion or civil war, and you are simply dreaming.

Originally posted by diakrite
reply to post by AzoriaCorp

 

I do not drink Dude. And no pills and stuff.

You started it and I called You out on your hidden motives.. Now Who needs the xanax?

You need the xanax bro because your delusional. Called me out on what?? I didnt start anything but a simple topic to discuss. You're taking the conversation and wording to a whole other level in which no one intended. (Most people understood this) You haven’t called anything out except making yourself look foolish. You’re manifesting a motive which doesn’t exist and manipulating the discussion over a personal spin in which you fabricated. You can’t just judge a person's intent, character, and direction based off one paragraph. Get over yourself. Take your ego elsewhere or stick to the discussion.

This is a fascinating topic. Were states ready to fight the US Federal Government, declarations of secession are simply passe' -- a way of thinking from a different age. What would happen is that like minded states would meet together and form an alliance. Rather than skirmish with troops on the land, the anti-Fed. states would engage in a decapitation of Washington, D.C. whilst Congress is in session and the President is in D.C.

A successful decapitation would also include the destruction of the IRS facilities everywhere in the greater DC area together with the arrest of all federal employees living within their states -- most would be released swiftly after being catalogued and processed.

Destruction of federal operations within the anti-Fed states would likewise be simultaneous with the decapitation....

I've read to many novels... but I think the decapitation is the only act of war to actually work.

God grant that such madness never overtake the people of the States.

No, im not a founding father. But a Visionary I am.

However, defusing the situation or remedy for a civil war was not the topic. (More proof of you [and others] derailing the thread) So your personal opinion of my intent is irrelevant. I never proposed anything; I never stated states should “leave an indivisible union”

First off, the Union is held together with the consent of the States. IF you bought into the propaganda that the Federal government mandates that and that is why its together, then I cant help you. Second, the 14th amendment prohibits secession. However many believe the 14th amendment is illegal and unconstitutional.

Read here for why: www.barefootsworld.net...

Furthermore, what do you mean the majority? 80% of the American people were against socialized medicine. It passed, federally funding abortions which the majority was fiercely against. (People practically rioted against their senators at town halls) However the President jumped in and used an executive order to reverse this, which is unlawful and an abuse of authority (impeachable by the way) due to the fact executive orders cannot supersede law; they can only elaborate law.
Where is this justice and political process you speak of?

More importantly, the President has a 41% approval rating. Is it just me or does this not prove the MAJORITY are not satisfied with the performance of their government and that it is not serving their interests?

So who are you referring to exactly by “enlightened or society-minded people”? Maybe indoctrinated. But certainly not enlightened that’s for sure.

A ballot box is a much more American way to empower change than an ammo box

This is comical as this statement is used over and over again to defend corruption. Maybe not worded quite like this, it’s usually worded like “You voted them in so that must be what you wanted” Absolutely false. The problem with the political system is not only has it failed, it’s so easily manipulated. Politicians, once elected, have zero accountability to their campaign promises. Once they’re in, they can lie, cheat, and even do the exact opposite of what they proposed and promised.

If you do rebel you will just prove what the monarchs of the Early Modern Period said of The Great Experiment, that the masses were too idiotic, brutish and emotional to govern themselves without turning on each other. Thankfully as I have pointed out, the vast majority of Americans are nowhere near the point of rebellion or civil war, and you are simply dreaming.

Wow. just wow. Spoken like a true cynic and tyrant. Did you get that from a Rockefeller biography?

I never personally proposed, stated, or even hinted at rebellion in the US. I proposed a possible scenario, I asked people for thoughts, ideas, and insight if and how it would take place. Nothing more. You are a usurper and you are so in such a compulsive level you don’t even realize it.
I think you have been watching way too much CNN and are WAAY out of touch with the majority of what the American people want. Just look around. You think Americans are buying up guns and ammo at record levels because they think everything is ok? If you can’t see that simple statistic as a major sign of mass distrust and uncertainty, then you have a severe case of tunnel vision.





[edit on 20-8-2010 by AzoriaCorp]

Originally posted by KILL_DOGG
I don't think there will ever be a civil war. The government will never allow it to escalate. You'll have a group of people that will try to start fighting, the military will come in and wipe them out. End of story. Revolution and civil war are an out dated dream that will never come to fruition.

The American people are just not willing to die for their beliefs like they once were.

Wow! I didn't know you speak for all Americans. [Sarcasm]

Originally posted by Mr. D

Originally posted by KILL_DOGG
I don't think there will ever be a civil war. The government will never allow it to escalate. You'll have a group of people that will try to start fighting, the military will come in and wipe them out. End of story. Revolution and civil war are an out dated dream that will never come to fruition.

The American people are just not willing to die for their beliefs like they once were.

Wow! I didn't know you speak for all Americans. [Sarcasm]

Yes i know. Its quite depressing and sad that the American people are so quickly and easily under estimated... But hey, it could work out to be an advantage.

Originally posted by KILL_DOGG
Revolution and civil war are an out dated dream that will never come to fruition. The American people are just not willing to die for their beliefs like they once were.

I don't think anyone can completely rule out serious situations, that have the potential to disrupt, or even topple a regime. But, I tend to think that TPTB are pretty good at keeping a close watch on their slaves, and will see "revolution" coming, long before anyone else does.

In fact, I think this could already be considered mostly as having taken place, as in past tense. Americans are heavily managed, from all quarters, with the media playing a pivotal role, as expected.

Whether you are right, or wrong about Americans willing to die for their beliefs, I mostly agree with you on this point. Americans have shown that they do in fact prefer "security", to liberty, and as the founding father said so well, Americans therefore deserve neither.

If "eternal vigilance" is what's needed, then it's already too late. 9/11 was a nice test. Guess what? America failed, for the most part. No, they did not rise up, and stop their masters. Yes, they were OK with travel inconveniences, and are AOK with zero privacy online. And yet, there was a surge in "patriotism", that actually surprised many.

Will Americans "die" for something? Maybe. But it would be a rather short list. That being said, it's not beyond conceivable that TPTB know EXACTLY what buttons they need to push, to get us killing ourselves.

And so, we have something of a contradiction. No, Americans will not die for much, but, if a few certain things came to bear, perhaps a good portion of them might finally step up to the plate. And even if we feel 9/11 was a false flag, it did show that "some" Americans, those who believed their nation had been attacked from without, it showed some were willing to go to war, and fight, and perhaps even die if necessary.

All this being said, I personally would be suspicious of anything that got Americans riled up enough to kill or die. I'm not saying I prefer their "security", but the reality is that our masters are pretty far ahead of the curve, and by the time Americans were behind a violent option, it would only be because TPTB had engineered it so.

While it is reprehensible that TPTB are still allowed to breathe, at all, after 9/11, the fact is, we're not going to change anything by killing this one, or that one. This is a global thing, this problem of a tremendously powerful psychopathic elite. Therefore, it will require a solution capable of a global deployment. Ah, but a bit too much for this thread...

JR

reply to post by boondock-saint


I think you would also be able to change Oklahoma from white to light gray, I'm pretty sure that the majority of the Okies would be right there with Texas, Arkansas, and Louisiana.....maybe not. Kinda scary yet exciting at the same time....whoa

I believe there are people that desperately want a war in the United States to the point they will justify it with any reason they can make up.

Again you have to seriously question the motives of people who think that shooting other Americans is a good idea. To me it doesn't sound like a good idea at all, frankly it sounds counterproductive to freedom and liberty.

Basically these people are telling you that it's their version of freedom or you die. Well that sounds more like tyranny to me than liberty.

Just my opinion.

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." - Isaac Asimov

[edit on 8/21/2010 by whatukno]

If we are to have a REVOLT we will need a leader, a charismatic SOB, w/ a plan. There is nobody so far, As the Beatles sang,,in" Revolution "you should listen one more time.

Originally posted by whatukno
"Violence is the first resort of the incompetent." - Jazzy

I do violence too btw, as the last resort.
Even if there's no 2nd civil war in the US. It seems armageddon between the west vs the muslims is starting to take form.

Originally posted by whatukno
I believe there are people that desperately want a war in the United States to the point they will justify it with any reason they can make up.

Again you have to seriously question the motives of people who think that shooting other Americans is a good idea. To me it doesn't sound like a good idea at all, frankly it sounds counterproductive to freedom and liberty.

Basically these people are telling you that it's their version of freedom or you die. Well that sounds more like tyranny to me than liberty.

Just my opinion.

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." - Issac Asimov

Well for one I almost cant take your statement seriously as your avatar is laughable. Being a clip of the show "House" which is becoming a large part of main stream TV Americana. Which to me, and a lot of Americans, is as much nonsense as Jersey Shore and American Idol. So its quite difficult to see your perspective here.

Also, based off your initial stance on violence by lumping it all into one category, that being a bad and unacceptable category, I will assume you're a pacifist. Meaning you believe violence never solves anything, yadda yadda, yadda, the only way to peace is peace itself and all that nonsense other pacifists preach. Well your wrong. Sometimes in many cases, violence IS the only answer. Even Jesus himself condoned owning weapons for defense and for justice.

He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. (Luke 22:36)

I myself, believe that violence must be avoided at all costs to avoid bloodshed and catastrophe BUT when a diplomatic democratic process fails, what then? Just keep begging for a change? Well I'll tell you what, many Americans have just about exhausted all their political resources and processes they have. The historic Health care law that was recently passed was a HUGE failure in American political justice. People attended town hall meetings, sent letters, emails, phone calls, and more. 80% of the American people were ignored and tyranny prevailed. So what then? Or just try it your way? Just try and try again?

Well here's a quote for you my pacifistic friend.

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” -Albert Einstein

By the way Isaac is spelled I S A A C. So make sure you get your spelling correct when you speak of incompetence again.

Plus Isaac was born of Soviet Socialistic Russia. I highly doubt most Americans could really care a less of what a Socialistic Russian born science fiction writer has to say about American values and politics.

reply to post by Jazzyguy

Even if there's no 2nd civil war in the US. It seems armageddon between the west vs the muslims is starting to take form.

That's because the same people want it!

I mean these internet revolutionaries might as well join up with Al Quada, they want the same thing in the end, the destruction of America, and to implement a tyrannical fascist government in it's place.

This is the subject that brought me to ATS in the first place, so I am always keenly interested in the opinions of people who would want to do this, what they are for, what they would do afterwords. Most people have no plan for afterwords except "reinstate the Constitution" No plan for reconstruction, no plan for the burial of all the bodies, no plan to reunite the people. Of course there's always some "small change" they plan to make to the Constitution, like the removal of the 13th Amendment, or the implementation of a special Constitutional executioner squad.

These people don't care who destroys the USA, they just want it's destruction and if they can brainwash as many people into thinking their way, all the better.

Originally posted by Jazzyguy

Originally posted by whatukno
"Violence is the first resort of the incompetent." - Jazzy

I do violence too btw, as the last resort.
Even if there's no 2nd civil war in the US. It seems armageddon between the west vs the muslims is starting to take form.

Many of you seem to be WAAY off my original topic. Its almost insulting how far off it has veered but I don't mind engaging in constructive thought and humoring others on their ideas. BUT I will say it again, I have not personally expressed a need for revolution or civil war. I am merely SPECULATING the facts, the trends, and the general American public's perception of the Federal government in which its policies have undermined the American people's interests. My statements, theory, and hypothetical scenario is NOT a call to arms or any violence for that matter. Its merely a question of events that may or may not come to be, based off of the general direction of the US political system and its direct effect on public relations. So lets drop the immature sarcasms, baseless accusations, and wild finger pointing. sh!t people...

[edit on 21-8-2010 by AzoriaCorp]

reply to post by AzoriaCorp

So lets drop the immature sarcasms, baseless accusations, and wild finger pointing.

Gee, let's see, who was giving us the immature sarcasms,

Well for one I almost cant take your statement seriously as your avatar is laughable.

baseless accusations,

Also, based off your initial stance on violence by lumping it all into one category, that being a bad and unacceptable category, I will assume you're a pacifist.

and wild finger pointing?

The historic Health care law that was recently passed was a HUGE failure in American political justice.

I myself, believe that violence must be avoided at all costs to avoid bloodshed and catastrophe BUT when a diplomatic democratic process fails, what then? Just keep begging for a change? Well I'll tell you what, many Americans have just about exhausted all their political resources and processes they have. The historic Health care law that was recently passed was a HUGE failure in American political justice. People attended town hall meetings, sent letters, emails, phone calls, and more. 80% of the American people were ignored and tyranny prevailed. So what then? Or just try it your way? Just try and try again?

See, but this country is no where near the point of no return, there are several remedies available to the people, first and foremost is the elections, and please, don't give me the crap about rigged elections, too few choices, and all the other nonsense that no one ever backs up with facts, it just doesn't fly.

If that doesn't work and I assure you that it would if people actually got out and voted for real people into office and kept replacing our legislative branch every few years, instead of creating career politicians. There is always the Article V Solution, if you don't know what Article V is, well, you might want to take a look at the United States Constitution again for some answers.

Well for one I almost cant take your statement seriously as your avatar is laughable.

Funny observation.

Also, based off your initial stance on violence by lumping it all into one category, that being a bad and unacceptable category, I will assume you're a pacifist.

This was not finger pointing. It was an assumption in which I backed up with your words. If you disagree then disagree. I left that open for you to refute if so. I did so by saying " I am going to assume..." Meaning I assume this BUT its open to your rebuttal. You're taking my choice word "accusation" out of context. It was aimed at people accusing others of promoting violence, encouraging war, and such other nonsense, just because they agree a civil war or violence may be a likely outcome.

The historic Health care law that was recently passed was a HUGE failure in American political justice.

Example of how the US political system has failed. I can name other instances such as the US bailouts if you'd like.

See, but this country is no where near the point of no return, there are several remedies available to the people, first and foremost is the elections, and please, don't give me the crap about rigged elections, too few choices, and all the other nonsense that no one ever backs up with facts, it just doesn't fly.

If you really think the republican and democratic parties are different, and present variety of choice, you really have not been paying much attention to politics.

If that doesn't work and I assure you that it would if people actually got out and voted for real people into office and kept replacing our legislative branch every few years, instead of creating career politicians.

And you just proved my point...

People keep replacing the legislators because they are FOOLED every election into thinking they have a choice among these parties. They don't. They're all the same. Its a game to stay in power. Its like wrestle mania. There's no real action, its all staged and all talk. They vote one in, and he fails to perform, and gets replaced by the opposing party. Then blames the last political party for the backlash from the previous term. Then repeats. Its an exhausting cycle that only progresses the US into more decadence. If ANY career politician is winning term after term due to being reelected (according to your theory) the people want them there.



[edit on 21-8-2010 by AzoriaCorp]

reply to post by AzoriaCorp


Ok so, you are purposely going to ignore reality are you? That's fine, I love how people think that in each election there are only two parties running, it shows either the person saying that has never voted, or they are partially illiterate and have massive difficulty reading.

In the last presidential election there were 8 different candidates running and on the ballot here in Michigan, not just the GOP and Democrats. But you don't want to hear about those people. Why? Because it's a solution. Yes it's a solution that doesn't involve you deciding to start blowing away your fellow Americans.

You want to put yourself into a corner and cry that you are out of options, but you are the only one that are limiting your options.

People put blinders on to the avenues at their disposal, they like to be self defeatist because they like the pity party game of "poor me".

Poor Me: They passed health care reform and I was against it, so I will assume that everyone else is against it too and that's my justification for starting a revolution.

Poor Me: They gave banks huge bailouts (that the banks actually are paying back by the way) so I am justified in wanting to destroy the United States through a civil war.

Just using the examples you listed.

You have decided there is no other option, and I doubt that you will listen to any other option, so there is no real point in trying to debate with you over the fact that you do have other options. (have I said Options enough? No? OPTIONS!)

I love how you completely ignored the Article V solution I offered, I wonder why? Could it be, that you really don't want to see any solution to the problems facing this country but instead want to paint yourself in a corner and blame someone else for your ignorance?

Originally posted by AzoriaCorp
I am merely SPECULATING the facts, the trends, and the general American public's perception of the Federal government in which its policies have undermined the American people's interests.

That's what I thought at first what the trend will be, but I realize that Sestias is indeed right.. in the last instance americans will not accept a civil war, they will go another route.

However regarding muslims vs the west, that's foreign policy, it's more determined by bureaucrats from lots of western countries. The US civil war is a domestic issue, mostly determined by americans themselves.

A US Civil War II....?

Has anyone here read the consequences of the first Civil War? Not just the stats and numbers of dead.....by the way, the US Civil War killed more Americans than all the US wars combined. More US troops fell at the Battle of Anteitam in 1862 than died in all of Viet Nam. We cry over the 5000 or so that died in Iraq...at Cold Harbor in 1864, 7000 Union troops died in 20 minutes.

A Civil War means you do not have a home left to go to. Your wife and children are probably dead or homeless, and they don't kbnow where you are ...which is probably dead.

Families are torn apart...figuratively and literally. And the weapons available now to both sides will be disasterous. Imagine the rebels buying weapons from the mexican drug lords... SAMs, artillery, rocket launchers....

Union troops bombing civilian towns and suspected rebel hideouts...farms, churches, small twons... inner city burrows. recall images of rats eating the fallen, mass graves in the fields of Nebraska, Virginia, ...imagine the camps set up to feed the sick and homeless, ...

If you want to see what it would look like...read up on the Kansas/Missourriborder wars of the late 1850s...homes were burned, suspect families were shot, hung, and burned...in that order...entire counties were forced to evacuate and anyone found there was immediately executed as a rebel.

This inturn bred the heroes/outlaws of Frank-Jesse James. Bill Quantrill/Bloody Bill Anderson... movie versions would be Riding With The Devil with toby McGuire...or Outlaw Jose Wales with Clint Eastwood.

Consider a Civil War on the scvale fought in the 1860s, but with automatic weapons and fighters and choppers....very ugly.

All that said.... I am a Southerner, and I do believe that there are some things worth fighting and dying for...and if forced...I would.

If some fed agents start to raid my farm and they start to "quarantine" my livestock and searching and seizing my property for no good reason, well.... I am not Amish. I am Irish-Scot and all Dixie Rebel...I reckon I'd have to pull the pistols.