What Makes Ground Zero (and the surrounding area) SACRED Ground?

reply to post by Dock9

Regarding the vigilantcitizen I fail to see the connection you're trying to make. Number 5,4 and 2 are at locations outside of Manhattan. What do they have to do with sacred ground? I didn't realize we were debating if we agree with memorials. The video to number 3 doesn't work and I'm unsure why it's included as a memorial since it states the artwork was placed in 1998. Last time I checked memorials are placed after death to preserve the memory. It's an interesting find I'm not familiar with but I see it as out of place and not relevant in the context of this article and this thread. Number 1, The Crescent of Embrace is being discussed here and appears to be more propaganda. At least this one has some relevance as it's about sacred ground and is on national government public property.

A mosque on 'Ground Zero' would be the capping insult to many people's minds

I completely agree with you except it's a community center with prayer space, built by Muslims, in the Tribeca neighborhood of Manhattan a couple of blocks from ground zero.

and people the world over support Americans who object

Two wrongs don't make it right. Supporting people who are misinformed with propaganda doesn't really say much. Here's a thread that discusses some of the disinformation that's hit the media. Your proposed McDonald, brothel, etc are poor comparisons at best with no real context in what's being discussed.

There you go, all those of you who're attempting to intimidate and silence American sensitivities --- you're beginning to get it now, aren't you ?

I think you've already been gotten by the propaganda machine to spread and share the misinformation you've been spoon fed and have digested for some time.

You are guests in Western nations. So mind your manners and observe Western traditions -- or return from whence you came thanks

Guests? Who are guests? I thought we were talking about Americans who are practicing their religion as guaranteed to them in our constitution. According to you I speculate I'm a guest too as my family is originally from Europe that came to America. We were allowed to practice our religion and build churches and incorporate our traditions into what's become known as western traditions. Should I go back to Europe?

Guests???

reply to post by hotbakedtater


Because 3000 innocent people lost their lives there it should be treated with reverance and respect. Sacred doesn't always have something to do with religion. Would you like an amusement park erected next to where your loved ones lost their lives?



[edit on 20-8-2010 by crazydaisy]

Actually its "unsacred" or "demonic" ground, as the whole thing was a mega-ritual put in place to sacrifice a lot of people using terrrorism as the scape-goat.

Now they have to do it more covert, in more ancient times sacrifices were done completely in public but now people wouldnt accept things like that, so instead they create wars , disasters, and so on.

The leaders never stopped the sacrifices, nor their involvement with the occult and magical.

Originally posted by CaptGizmo
This subject often makes me wonder what would happen if Christians decided to build a multi-million dollar church in Mecca? I wonder if it would even get off the ground?

Umm, okay. Let's play the apples and bananas game yet again.

No, of course it wouldn't happen. Mecca, Saudi Arabia does not provide legal protection for freedom of religion. Manhattan, and the rest of America, does provide legal protection for freedom of religion. I fail to see what's so complicated about this. I don't understand this argument anytime I ever see it. It's just excusing the facts to try and make some illogical comparison. Here's a thread regarding churches in the Arab world if you're interested.

I only had a problem with their announcement of their opening date...which is ....you may have guessed it...9-11-2011. That's when I realized it was something more.

Originally posted by DragonFire1024

 

But to intentionally taunt the American people and the people who died on that day by choosing a spot as close to WTC as possible, and choosing the opening day to be the same day of the attacks and 'our' ceremonies, is an insult to all Americans, religious or not.

That's just more misinformation. Here's a link that says otherwise. There's an existing congregation in the neighborhood with a prayer space that's only large enough for 20% of them. It's already in the vicinity only smaller.

Originally posted by DragonFire1024

 

I never said "all of Manhattan." Not once. But a block or two from WTC? Give me a break. It's convoluted to think that Ground Zero is JUST the WTC and if that's how you think, then you are amongst too many people who just don't care enough anymore. Truly sad.

It's not convoluted, but it's the definition of ground zero. If anything, I think you're convoluting the definition to fit your beliefs. What radius from the center of the WTC complex do you believe to be considered ground zero and a sacred area? Should there be limitations on all real estate within your definition of ground zero? I'm sure there have been some real estate transactions "there" in the last nine years. How come these haven't come up in protest? Are the strip club and OTB owners along with countless others being insensitive to the lives lost?

Lives were lost the moment the first plane hit the the towers. What if they didn't fall and the fires were extinguished and the towers were rebuildable. What would constitute ground zero and sacred ground then? The Pentagon was rebuilt and people now work where others died. Is that disrespectful? Is it truly sad when a school bus is in an accident on a road with many fatalities and the road is reopened only to have people drive over the spot where children died or is a roadside memorial an acceptable place?

[edit on 8/20/2010 by Three_moons]

of course this is hallowed ground, how can this be questioned.

reply to post by curtshamblin

Could you be a little more specific since there's talk about the WTC complex itself, the area around it as well as how far the area around it should be defined as sacred.

reply to post by Three_moons


Sorry for quoting myself from another thread, but relevant here as well:


You are correct, it is not a Mega Mosque. It is just a 15 story islamic center, standing near the ruins of what the muslim world considered to be the western societies' mecca, the world trade towers. If you don't see the symbolism here, then I can't help you. Think about the 7th Century when the Dome of the Rock was built on the very site of Solomon and Herrod's temple. Do you not see the similarity of purpose in the building of this mosque? Maybe it's just me who thinks it is their way of stating to the world that they have defeated western society by knocking down the towers and erecting an islamic center in their place; thus ascerting the superiority of the Muslim faith, as they did so many centuries ago.

reply to post by hotbakedtater


Actually, if ground zero was so "sacred" they wouldn't be building the "freedon tower" err.....I mean the new WTC 1 tower on the actual site.

Enough said.

reply to post by DondeEsta?

What post of mine are you replying to? I don't recall saying anything about a Mega Mosque and am unsure exactly what you're replying to of mine.

Just looking for clarification here.

reply to post by Three_moons


Truly sorry sir, as I am quite the newbie with posting and quite often screw things up more than necessary. I need to take a class or something. Anyhow, I was simply referring to your comment as to what qualifies as sacred ground, which I completely understand from a pragmatic point of view. From a bit different vantage point it takes an entirely different meaning, which I was merely hoping to illuminate.

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.


The Mosque isn't even near or really visible from Ground Zero.

Let this silly and immature debate end already.

reply to post by hotbakedtater


The man in this video makes some good points and he even has a Muslim friend whom he quotes....

[edit on 8/21/2010 by rangersdad]

reply to post by hotbakedtater


You sure did bring up an interesting question for us to think about. My two cents are that the Ground has nothing to do with being Sacred- People are sensitive to the foot prints of the twin towers to reflect an area of respect to those who lost their lives, and to the American loss- such as Pearl Harbor.

I have to question the motives of the Muslims to not honor that simple request as to not build and I further suspect this is a type of "crowning Victory" for them to pervert our laws and morals against us.

reply to post by DondeEsta?

No problem regarding the posting issues. Hopefully you don't mind a recommendation and quick lesson to help you out. If there's more than one post from someone or you're replying to a specific portion of it use the "quote" button instead of the REPLY TO: Select the portion of relevance and delete the rest. Just be sure to include the quote code at the end. Hope it helps you some.

Regarding your actual post, I don't see it the same way.

Think about the 7th Century when the Dome of the Rock was built on the very site of Solomon and Herrod's temple. Do you not see the similarity of purpose in the building of this mosque?

I could see it being interpreted as such due to the all the misleading information that's going around. As you stated:

It is just a 15 story islamic center, standing near the ruins of what the muslim world considered to be the western societies' mecca, the world trade towers.

The community center with prayer space isn't on the very site that the Islamic Extremists (according to the official story) knocked down. There's already two mosques or prayer centers nearby and they're looking to build a larger one to serve the existing congregation in the neighborhood. It may not technically even qualify as a mosque and it'll look like a modern building modeled after other community centers in NYC of different faiths.

Maybe it's just me who thinks it is their way of stating to the world that they have defeated western society by knocking down the towers and erecting an islamic center in their place.

You're far from the only one thinking the way you do but many also see it differently.

Originally posted by DragonFire1024

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by DragonFire1024
reply to post by neformore

 

Yeah i guess all those deaths that happened around the WTC itself don't matter right? Lets just scratch them off the list of the dead.

And just how many people DID die at Burlington Coat Factory? I'm sure you've got the figure handy, right?

Why would it matter? Does dying in the WTC make those deaths anymore important than those people? What about the Pentagon? Or Pennsylvania? Do they not matter either? Every one of those people are as important as those who died in an attempt to save them, and so on. Just because some might have died at a coat store or McDonald's Or the At&T store a few streets down, would not make them any less, in this argument, "sacred."

But the Pentagon obviously isnt sacred, or there wouldn't be a Mosque inside it...
www.washingtontimes.com...

Originally posted by crazydaisy

Because 3000 innocent people lost their lives there it should be treated with reverance and respect. Sacred doesn't always have something to do with religion. Would you like an amusement park erected next to where your loved ones lost their lives?

There is no amusement park near ground zero.

However.

If memory serves (and it has been a little while), there are several bars, quite a few pizza places, a Staples, a strip bar, at least one burger king, and any number of shops selling random souvenir crap - all closer to the WTC site than the proposed mosque site. That is what I remember, I`m sure there is more.

Did I eat a slice at a Holy Pizza Shop? Should I have saved the notepad and pen I bought at Staples, and kept them as Holy Relics, as I bought them on Sacred Ground?

Originally posted by vox2442


There is no amusement park near ground zero.

However.

If memory serves (and it has been a little while), there are several bars, quite a few pizza places, a Staples, a strip bar, at least one burger king, and any number of shops selling random souvenir crap - all closer to the WTC site than the proposed mosque site. That is what I remember, I`m sure there is more.

Did I eat a slice at a Holy Pizza Shop? Should I have saved the notepad and pen I bought at Staples, and kept them as Holy Relics, as I bought them on Sacred Ground?

Your post made me laugh out loud, thank you.

It also brings up some good points.

Should the men that frequent the ground zero strip club enshrine the tassells they bring home? Twizzle sticks as relics from the bars?

Excellent points to ponder.

reply to post by rangersdad


I think this video raises a lot of good points, like the lack of understanding of another cultures humor.

Maybe they were laughing because they knew that this act of terror (by our government) just scapegoated them into most hated territory. I was swift enough on the uptake the day it happened to realize this was an inside job. Muslim men are not unintelligent. Those were some funny pictures, all three of them, and the archetectual (sp) beauty of that third pictures! What is so disturbing about that? The joke was obviously the timeline. It has not happened yet has it? I do not see this happening any time soon either like never. I think video guy needs to take a humour course.

I think maybe there is a lot of attention on this mosque issue (out of which sprang my intitial thoughts on this thread) and your video made me wonder something. Maybe all the attention is to stir people up (like video guy) into frenzies culminating in a fiture attack of some sort on this mosque. There is really no logical explanation as to why this is getting so much coverage, (thanks Obama for bringing it to the forefront).

Then there will be two attacks at ground Zero.

Just some thoughts.

Originally posted by Three_moons
reply to post by DondeEsta?

 

Regarding your actual post, I don't see it the same way.

Think about the 7th Century when the Dome of the Rock was built on the very site of Solomon and Herrod's temple. Do you not see the similarity of purpose in the building of this mosque?

I could see it being interpreted as such due to the all the misleading information that's going around. As you stated:

It is just a 15 story islamic center, standing near the ruins of what the muslim world considered to be the western societies' mecca, the world trade towers.

The community center with prayer space isn't on the very site that the Islamic Extremists (according to the official story) knocked down. There's already two mosques or prayer centers nearby and they're looking to build a larger one to serve the existing congregation in the neighborhood. It may not technically even qualify as a mosque and it'll look like a modern building modeled after other community centers in NYC of different faiths.

Maybe it's just me who thinks it is their way of stating to the world that they have defeated western society by knocking down the towers and erecting an islamic center in their place.

You're far from the only one thinking the way you do but many also see it differently.

Thanks for the helpful hints regarding postings and I do appreciate the intelligent discourse. The fact that it won't look like or truly be a mosque really has no bearing for me, as I think they are smart enough to realize that would never be allowed. I've read through many alternative theories on what happened, read the 911 commission report several times and admittedly still don't know exactly where I stand on the issue. Seeking for the truth, will it seems be a never ending journey. As a student of history, I do believe that the US and many other superpower nations have exacerbated the middle eastern terrorist phenomena, but I'm unsure if it has planned or just a byproduct of our superiority complex. I'm guessing the latter, since we have screwed up soo many times.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
I've heard many people say this...and I think it is just people being ignorant of what sacred means.

The fact that the Muslim Community Center isn't even ON GROUND ZERO...is another misconception that is being spun by the media.

The "Ground Zero Mosque" is neither on "ground zero" nor a "mosque".

So GOOD JOB ATSers...way to buy into the spin of the media.

I may be wrong, but didn't debris from one of the planes actually hit (and damage) the building in question? If so, that's enough to qualify it as "Ground Zero" for me....