Is God a Dead Beat Dad??

I'm looking forward to your answers. BE NICE!

Is God a dead-beat dad? Does he make batches of us ‘kiddies’ just to neglect us and leave us to fend for ourselves in a world equally neglected by him? Or perhaps is suffering just random and part of the evolutionary failure called humanity? (obviously we aren’t made very well. Our bodies are so disease prone.) Or does human suffering have karmic cleansing qualities? Does it serve a purpose of making us more ‘christ like’? (and I mean that from both the Christian Christ and the Buddhist ‘christ’ perspective.) Some suffering promotes learning and brings out the best (charity) in people. Other suffering seems rather pointless and a waste, at least from our human stand point.

I take you back to the Christmas Tsunami, when I first started to wonder about this. 1/3 of the dead were children. Remember the heart rending pictures of toddlers washed up on the beach? Their eyes and ears and mouths full of wet sand. They had drown in sand and in pain and in absolute terror - probably trying to scream for their parents who couldn’t help because they too were dying. I can almost see and feel the mothers in anguish and in pain – physically and mentally and in their very souls. What good did any of that suffering do? Yes, big amounts of international aid came in. That was a positive out of bad. Much of it never made it to the survivors of course. Greed and big corporations and the corrupt gov’ts over there interfered. So again … can anyone tell me what good the suffering of these people did for anyone?

What about children who suffer from cancer? Their short lives are full of misery. Their parents hearts break every time their child screams in pain; every time their child has a stroke from the medication; every time the child looks at them with tearful eyes wanting someone to stop the pain which, in many cases, won’t stop until they are dead. And what about the poor parents? They have to watch their children in agony and there isn’t anything they can do about it. Their suffering and heartbreak is beyond words.

Heck, what about adults who suffer from cancer and from all the other diseases? The blind. The lame. The crippled. The ‘emotionally challenged’ who are bipolar or who have clinical depression. That is hell on earth, poor souls!! A soul trapped in a body like that suffers from pure evil! How about those who suffer from severe mental health problems that make them a menace to society? It’s not their fault that they are child molesters or that they are sociopaths. They were made that way and they CAN NOT change. What about those who can’t communicate what is wrong? They lay in bed (or on the ground if they are poor) and they can’t tell anyone the pain or anguish they are in.

What about the adult elderly and the breakdown of their bodies. Yes, I understand that this is an opportunity for others to step in and help. This has ‘heavenly’ merit and their suffering provides an opportunity for others to help. But let’s face it, a lot are forgotten or cast aside. Many suffer alone and in pain.

Some Buddhists believe that some among them, the more ‘enlightened’ volunteer to be suffering souls. They volunteer to suffer to help cleanse bad karma so that those who are stuck in lower karmic levels can be freed and can advance toward Nirvana. (any full Buddhists out there feel free to correct me if I’m wrong).

Buddhists and Hindus believe that you have to deal with bad Karma that you have made before you can advance. This includes suffering if necessary.

The Catholic belief is much the same. Not the reincarnation part, but the part that sins (or bad Karma, if you will) have to be dealt with and suffered for before you can move on to heaven. The Catholic belief is also that people can suffer for each other and offer that suffering up to God in order to bring blessings down upon those people who are being suffered for, so that they will have grace that will help them change their ways and advance.

The Protestant belief – God makes good come out of bad situations. (that’s a Catholic belief as well). Yes I can see some good coming from most of the bad situations and illness’ that people have. But is the bad outweighed by the good? Is the suffering worth whatever good comes forth? Is a child in agony during chemo, and her parents as well, worth the few positive ‘extras’ that come from the situation??

Christian belief – suffering came about because mythological creatures (Adam and Eve) took bites out of an apple from a beautiful tree that God placed in the middle of their small world. So, since (allegedly) God put the tree there and He made humans weak, would He be to blame for the suffering that allegedly came from this incident?? After all, He would have made the tree and He would have made the people fully knowing what would happen.

Hinduism views aging, sickness and death as suffering – with desire as a root cause. Bhagavad-Gita says instability of the mind is a main cause. Conversely Hindu scriptures also say that suffering is caused by previous actions (direct consequences from this life or also karma from past lives). Therefore suffering is something that you brought on yourself. It should be accepted with patience and endurance. Looks to me like a ‘you brought it on yourself’ kind of thing. (any full Hindus out there feel free to correct me if I’m wrong)

The Jewish belief is that everything comes from God and that what comes from God can not be evil therefore, even though it’s horrible to look at and to suffer through, it is GOOD because God caused it or made it.

Islam gets it’s beliefs from a cafeteria picking of the religions at the time of it’s invention. It says that suffering is either a result of sin or is a test of faith. The alleged purpose of suffering in Islam is that it tests faith or corrects unbelief. (see ‘Why I am not a Muslim by Ibn Warriq – excellent book that explains where all the beliefs in Islam come from)

The Hopi view on suffering is that if you we don’t protect land and life, then we will suffer with Mother Earth. This makes sense and explains some things to some extent. You can’t go swimming in your own poo and expect to remain healthy, right? Cause and effect. But it doesn’t explain all .. like why God doesn’t step in and end innocent suffering of His children.

The movie ‘God on Trial’ offers some interesting points on suffering and who is to blame.
www.youtube.com...
Of course, the murderous God of the Old Testament may not really be God. People could easily have been tossing His name around saying “God said this … or God appeared to me and said that”. People do it now. But then again, if it were all lies, He could have stopped all the killing in His name and spared the people all that suffering. So either way it looks like He’s responsible.

So I ask these questions. And I ask these not about the kind of cause and effect suffering a person with lung cancer gets after smoking for 30 years. I ask these about the kind of suffering that seems to make no sense at all.

Are we just a misfire in evolution and these frail bodies we are stuck in are filled with mistakes because evolution isn’t perfect and we are a work in progress? Same with suffering from major natural disasters. Does that happen through neglect from God or is it just that the Earth is also in a constant change and we are stuck with the consequences of it?

Are we all karma cleansing and therefore we all must really be moving on up quickly considering the amount of suffering in the world? (either that or we all must be pretty damn bad because if we were really making good karma then the suffering wouldn’t be here)

Is all suffering ultimately good? If we are burning bad karma or becoming more like Christ then it must be. If it’s not all good, then why does God allow, and even promote, useless suffering????

If God knows all then He must remember what it was like to suffer and die on the cross. So why does He put people on Earth through such horrible things? So we can better understand His suffering? Or something else?? Then again .. who knows the mind of God, right?

Someone will say that Christ died for us 2,000 years ago. I do appreciate that. However, I’m not sure if that explains the suffering that is going on now. Unless we are all supposed to suffer like Christ did and become more ‘Christ like’ that way. In that case .. Christianity is a pretty miserable existence. At least here on Earth.

Is God a dead beat dad who, if he were in human form, would be arrested and thrown in jail?

Perhaps Jim Carrey was right when he said in his movie – ‘(paraphrase) God is just a mean kid with a magnifying glass and we are the ants in an anthill’.

But the Near Death Experiences people have - the nice ones anyways - have an all loving God and tons and tons of love and acceptance flowing from him towards the person. A lot of evidence supports NDEs ... So these have to carry some weight too.

In this past year I have read (when my eyes would allow it) tons of books on this subject. Books and literature from every perspective. From fundamentalist Christian to Catholic to Buddhist to Hindu to Native American Indian to Jewish to Athiest etc etc etc My answer to the question of ‘Is God a dead beat dad’ is … I still have no freak’n idea. Living life is like being tossed into a board game without anyone in charge REALLY explaining why you are there; what the rules of the game are; or what the objective of the game is in order to win. It kinda sucks not knowing for sure what is going on.

(I’m going through the 5 stages, as you all can probably tell)

P.S. For the record .. my personal belief system is a mishmash of Catholic and Hindu with some Buddhist frosting. Rather tasty!

S & F (should be thumbs up smiley here)

Not complaining, because I generally write long posts myself -- but it's a lot to keep in mind while replying, lol

So that's what it's called huh ... ' The Five Stages' ? I've heard of the 5 in relation to grief and dying, but hadn't occurred to me to apply it to the separation from childlike belief. I've never had a name for it. ' Losing my Religion' is a great song, but sounds a bit lofty for everyday useage

Whatever it's called, I've been going through it for quite a few years now. (gee, lots of years, I've just realised). It's tough. And the funny thing is, in times of crisis or before you go to sleep, you still find yourself praying (well, I do, anyway. But I don't say 'Amen' any more, not since I realised where that word originated and why. These day, at the end of the prayer, I just say 'thanks' )

Deadbeat Dad ? As good a term as any. My term was ' Impersonal', as in ' It's an impersonal god, imo '.

Whatever terms we choose as a means of separating ourselves from what for many of us was the rock in our lives, it still hurts, it's still scary -- stepping out on the high-board without the customary safety-net of 'Big God'. For some, it might be a clean separation. With me, it's still a work in progress, step by shaky step

There are thousands of learned people who're far smarter than we could ever hope to be, and they're believers. Lucky them. Although I cannot reconcile intelligence with their belief. So to me, they're being dishonest because they don't have the guts to employ the brains God gave them. And it takes guts. In many ways, it's similar to when kids accept that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny 'aren't real '. It's sad. But it's necessary, as in: ' And when I was a wo/man, I put away childish things '

In fact, isn't God a lot like ' The Big Santa Claus in the Sky for Grown Ups ' ? Always seemed that way to me -- they let go of Santa Claus and grab onto God. But it amounts to the same thing -- the need to believe in some big, magical entity who can bestow goodies and wipe away tears. If God were commonly regarded as female, then she (in her 'for children' version ) would best be likened to The Fairy Godmother of story-book fame

God doesn't make sense. That's the reality. If God were a product, people would switch channels when the tv-commercials promoting God appeared. ' Tried it. Didn't work. Don't buy into it ', people would say to their friends, ' Doesn't live up to its promises'. And bible-thumpers would enjoy the same reputation as used-car dealers: ' They're full of it ' people would sneer. Everyone's garage would have barely-used religions gathering dust on the shelves, along with discarded thigh-masters and maxo-ab machines

So how did it all happen ? Why did so many people, over hundreds of years, buy the God product ? Well, we know they could be tortured and flayed alive, burned at stakes, etc. for expressing their doubts and/or outright disbelief, so yes, they had to pretend. But these days ?

Well, 'religion' as a product comes complete with self-serving claims that if you don't believe it, it's because you're eeev-ill and in thrall to a wicked demon, so there and ner ner. Heads you lose, tails it wins. And the wicked demon is wielded constantly to keep the confused masses in line: ' Roll up, roll up. You goin' on a riiiiiiiide. Over here we have the trip to Hell. It's baaaad. It's nasty. It hurts. Yowch ! But over here ... subtle change of tone to oily, persuasive ... over hee-ah you get the trip to Heaven ! What's that ... say it louder -- let me here ya ! Heaven I say ! HeV-en ! See your dead loved-ones ! Speak personally with God and JEEE ZUS ! Get young again ! Be heeeeeee yuld ! Roll up, roll up. Heaven Express now loading !

So even though people have a hard time buying the God and Heaven stuff --- they're scared of the alternative. So they go with what offers them the best chance. Then they close down their critical faculties and when their brain tries to reason with them about this religion thing, they put their fingers in their ears and hum, hum, hum -- ' Can't hear you. Not listening '. And after a while, their brain understands that while these people can still do advanced math and cut cancers out of living bodies, design mile-high structures, etc. --- they refuse to apply the same deductive skills to the God story

What came first -- God, or the millions of words used over the millenia to make some semblance of sense of God ?

Because as you say and as millions of us know --- the God story doesn't make sense

We ask: ' Ok. If God is so loving, why does he put us through all this ? '

Well, they're ready for that one. In fact, they leap upon it, eyes gleaming. And out come all the rationalisations about spiritual growth through suffering. And all the variations on the theme.

Yes, they have an answer for everything. They've had thousands of years of practice, starting way back when God had different names

But no matter how polished the delivery or practised the spiel --- it still doesn't make sense

and every single one of us could, with a few minutes' preparation, come up with a better and kinder model for living and spiritual growth than the ordeal to which billions are being subjected

Why create bodies which need to consume food, for example ? And that goes right down the line to animals -- and lions catching and tearing apart those lovely little deer things on the 'educational' (spelled sadistic) children's nature-shows

And again as you've pointed out -- what's the deal with Hell ?

I really take exception to that one -- to people describing paedophiles and serial killers as evil who 'should burn in hell'.

Hey ... hang on ! Shussh a minute, please. If you build a cart with wonky wheels and that cart topples over in the ditch and kills the passengers -- who is to blame ? You ? Or the cart ? Who's responsible ? Think about it. Did the cart create itself ? Nope. You did, right ? And you took credit for it, too.

A cart can't create itself and you were the one with the hammer and nails. You set that cart on the road. You invited people to climb aboard. You are responsible. So why are you blaming the cart ? Are you mad ? Now you're raging about the 'evil cart' and saying it has to go to hell. No. You should go to hell if you're so keen on hells. It's all your fault. And don't even start with the excuses about ' The Debil made the cart topple in the ditch'. If you'd built a decent cart to begin with, none of this would have happened

So then we wonder -- who came up with Hell and the concept of 'evil' ? Was it God ? Or was it those who hijacked God and manipulated people's perception of God for their own profit ? No prizes for getting it right, either, because it's too easy

Ok then. So we're cutting through the crud like butter now. We see what's been going on. It's been going on a long time, but that still doesn't mean it should ever have begun

Now we see that we don't have to chuck God out with the bathwater. All we need do is dispense with organised, for-profit religions

But we're still left with this entity known as God (or whatever you prefer) and it's seeming indifference to our sufferings. Deadbeat Dad ? Or is God more a sort of Stephen Hawkings type of father who's hyper intelligent, a bit vague, busy in his study, oblivious most of the time to the coarser stuff of life such as the blocked toilets and need to pain the shutters, the cost of groceries, the need to buy new clothes or even to eat ? That's my version of God at the moment, anyway

Maybe, like many fathers, he'll find us more interesting when we get older (as in a thousand times more evolved). Maybe right now, we're just squiggles in a petri dish to him, and not very interesting ones at that. Or maybe we're just casually flung Godly-sperm

Precognition ? Out of Body experiences ? Astral travel ? Near Death Experiences ? Ghosts ? They fit into the puzzle somewhere. Too many of us have experienced them. And we cannot all be airily dismissed as liars

Hindu, Budhist (can never spell that), Jain, Seventh Day Adventist, Lutheran, Moslem, Jew. Doesn't matter. Just little clubs vying for membership and making lots of stuff up to support their stance and stop members from wandering elsewhere. There were other little clubs with different names in the past. More to come

Finally, we look around and we amdire the symmetry, the math, the beauty and ugliness etc. and it has the look of something with a plan at the back of it. It had to start somewhere. Someone or something had to have a hand in it. It didn't just pop out of nowhere. We're pretty smart, at least we thing so --- yet we can't create universes or solar systems. Something did, even if in reality our world is just a tea-leaf at the bottom of something's cup. Let's call the tea-drinker 'God'

Now, it may be that our particular tea-leaf is under the auspices of a nasty little cruel god. The Top God .. the Stephen Hawkings Main God might by now have evolved to pure tone and light and lost in its own reveries. There could be thousands of minor gods, all running little tea-leaf universes and hells. Would explain a lot, wouldn't it ?

Nothing we can do about it though. No way to get off the wheel. Maybe in time, we'll filter our way up to the Top God. Maybe by then, our anger and disappointment will have cooled. Maybe that's the way it's supposed to work. Otherwise, we might land a kick in the Dead Beat Dad's shins, saying sarcastically, ' Nice to see you ... Dad. Hard to find you. You owe me big time ' And Dad does the eyeroll and sighs ... ' Oh, give me peace. You're worse than your mothers '

the five stages

Sorry .. should have been more specific. I assumed everyone would know what I was talking about (brain fog struck).

Five stages ... I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease. When that happens most people go through the five stages. I've gone through the 'shock' the 'bargaining' the 'depression' .. I'm still in the anger phase. Doubt I'll get to 'acceptance' anytime soon.

[edit on 8/19/2010 by FlyersFan]

Maybe instead of a mean kid with a magnifying glass or a dead beat dad .. He's just fickle. Kinda seems that way considering how He doles out punishments and miracles and all.

A cart can't create itself and you were the one with the hammer and nails. You set that cart on the road. You invited people to climb aboard. You are responsible. So why are you blaming the cart ? Are you mad ? Now you're raging about the 'evil cart' and saying it has to go to hell. No. You should go to hell if you're so keen on hells. It's all your fault. And don't even start with the excuses about ' The Debil made the cart topple in the ditch'. If you'd built a decent cart to begin with, none of this would have happened

So then we wonder -- who came up with Hell and the concept of 'evil' ? Was it God ? Or was it those who hijacked God and manipulated people's perception of God for their own profit ? No prizes for getting it right, either, because it's too easy

God gave us free will, that free will was used incorrectly and we sinned. I could go on and give you a large explanation but I don't have much time so i'll give you an analogy.

Since you are already using the "deadbeat dad" comparison, think of it like this:
As a teenager your father deems you are ready to drive, however you take the car and go over the speed limit and crash. In the hospital you are shown to be paralyzed from head to toe... now who will the angry teenager blame? himself for his own mistakes, or his father?

I mean, it makes sense that if his dad had never created him this would have never happened. Right?

not really...

Originally posted by Falken
God gave us free will, that free will was used incorrectly and we sinned.

The children who were wiped out in the tsunami didn't sin enough to deserve that as a punishment.

Little kids with cancer couldn't possibly have done anything so bad as to deserve the pain of cancer and chemo.

etc etc

no understanding exist today. this op is proof of it, it's proof that understanding is a grace.

like the prophets pinpointed about these times. Understanding because of mans sins would be gone before antichrist.

which the EU will reveal soon. european union is the woma on the scarlett beast.

but anyways.

Is God a deadbeat dad. Well it's impossible. why.


OP. God MADE everybody. ok. He placed love in mans heart. So assuming God is real, that means you are implying God is STUPID enopugh to create love and put it in your heart and yet be deprived of it himself.

which means God said. ' OK i'll create humans better than me, and create people like flyersfan and they will have much more heart than me, while I the creator of love that put it in humans wi just be a deadbeat dad.

it's impossible. see and this is where humans rebel. they don't undrstand why God does what he does, so i'll rebel, maybbe not fully but suddle rebellion which could lead to hatred of God.



IMO the op seems more to me like God is a deadbeat dad instead of it in the form of a question.


I wouldn't be adeadbeat dad. How much more would God not be who put that grace in me.

The children who were wiped out in the tsunami didn't sin enough to deserve that as a punishment.

Little kids with cancer couldn't possibly have done anything so bad as to deserve the pain of cancer and chemo.

'op'


How do you know the little kids wouldn't gow up to be evil. you're assuming that they are angels forever. God sees in advance. Some people he takes out early for reasons we don't know. The sufferings the kids get is beneficial, trust me on that because I suffered as a kid and I know how it humbles the soul out.

alittle suffering is nothing compared to enternal glory.


Again the chilren in the tsumani God took out early or allowed too for reasons we don't know. Death come to everybody. The same children if survived the tsunami and yet one hour later died in a car crash you wouldn't say anything but it's a shame.

if they are in heave, it's not a shame. death comes to eveybody. it's reality. How God takes souls out and when shouldn't cause rebellion.



OP I have suffered my entire life. I went through a period where I would not leave the house for years strait, social anxiety, having welts all over my back, neck, head, face, couldn't take my shirt off in public, caused my pillow sheets to have blood all over them.

all from the panic attacks. it caused welts.

I never rebelled.

what it produced in my soul, I cannot describe. it humbles the soul out once the suffering is gone, makes it appretiate things more.

I went through a period where I couldn't eat for a week. When I finally did eat, I appretiated that bowl of cereal like it was gold and always appretiated food since.


your soul will leanr this in time through understanding.

peace op.



[edit on 19-8-2010 by JesusisTruth]

[edit on 19-8-2010 by JesusisTruth]

and I already know his reply.

well how do I explain people who do grow up evil, God allows that.

Yea well how do you know they will not convert before death. us humans don't know why God does what he does, so don't ever rebel because of what happens in an individuals life.

God is the maker of love and knows what he's doing.

bye OP.

[edit on 19-8-2010 by JesusisTruth]

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
no understanding exist today. this op is proof of it, it's proof that understanding is a grace.

I asked a question. I understand what the different religions say. Heck, I quoted a bunch of 'em. You think you know the answer and are therefore in a state of grace? Perhaps you are wrong.

Is God a deadbeat dad. Well it's impossible. why. OP. God MADE everybody. ok.

Dead beat dads make kids all the time. Ok.

He placed love in mans heart.

not everyones heart.

So assuming God is real, that means you are implying God is STUPID enopugh to create love and put it in your heart and yet be deprived of it himself.

Like I said, it's not in everyone's heart. And as far as how smart He is ... that isn't the question. He's in charge. We are stuck with what He has decided is the way He wants things to be. The question is ... is He taking care of His creation ??

this is where humans rebel. they don't undrstand why God does what he does,

As I said in the opening piece .. no one understands why God does what He does. It's like being thrown in the middle of a board game without knowing the rules or the objective of the game.

IMO the op seems more to me like God is a deadbeat dad instead of it in the form of a question.

Guess you missed all the quotes that actually support Him not being one .. like the NDEs. It was rather well balanced. But even if it weren't ... so what? The question would still be valid.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I'm looking forward to your answers. BE NICE!

God is not a deadbeat dad. It is because we are ungrateful sons that is the problem. When you become grateful for what you have, then you can know the real Father despite living in a world filled with those who do not know you yet call you 'brother'.

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
I never rebelled.

I'm using my God-given brain to ask a valid question.
That's not 'rebelling'. That's exploring and learning.

your soul will leanr this in time through understanding.

I've heard all these arguments before. At this time those excuses for God sound more like things man has made up ... sort of a self inflicted mental medicine to help make the unreasonable seem reasonable.

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
and I already know his reply.

I'm a girl.

bye OP.

toooodles.


If a wife is abused by her husband ... he beats her and inbetween beatings he says "i love you" "this is for your own good" and then beats her some more ... and she stays with him because he 'runs the house' and she craves hearing him say "i love you' between beatings ... we'd say that was a serious abusive relationship and that she needs to get out of it fast.



[edit on 8/19/2010 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by ben91069
It is because we are ungrateful sons that is the problem.

I'm definately ungrateful for pain, for choking every day, for limbs that are numb and sometimes useless, for kidney stones, etc etc etc ... I'm definately not grateful for those things.

So if a child is sitting quietly and respectfully in a house, and the father decides to beat the crap out of the child, it's okay because the kid was probably ungrateful for the abusive father? He should be grateful to receive a spanking even when he is behaving fine and says please and thank you at the dinner table? Hmmmmm ....

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
no understanding exist today. this op is proof of it, it's proof that understanding is a grace.

I asked a question. I understand what the different religions say. Heck, I quoted a bunch of 'em. You think you know the answer and are therefore in a state of grace? Perhaps you are wrong.

perhaps i am right though.

Is God a deadbeat dad. Well it's impossible. why. OP. God MADE everybody. ok.

Dead beat dads make kids all the time. Ok.

sure dead beat dads make kids, but god is different, he is the author of love itself. whereas those deadbeat dads are just lacking grace in their lives which is from god. again lack of understanding.

He placed love in mans heart.

not everyones heart.

exacty. it's grace. some reject grace and love. the point is is that he made love in the first place which is the reason you flyersfan have love and care in the first placed. kind of like an oxymoron statement.

So assuming God is real, that means you are implying God is STUPID enopugh to create love and put it in your heart and yet be deprived of it himself.

Like I said, it's not in everyone's heart. And as far as how smart He is ... that isn't the question. He's in charge. We are stuck with what He has decided is the way He wants things to be. The question is ... is He taking care of His creation ??


the answer is yes. and after death we wil see this. justice is a grace implanted in mans heart by god. for god to be deprived of justice and love is ridiculous and not logical.

this is where humans rebel. they don't undrstand why God does what he does,

As I said in the opening piece .. no one understands why God does what He does. It's like being thrown in the middle of a board game without knowing the rules or the objective of the game.


God gives the rule and objectives in scripture, i wasn't really implying it was you rebelling, just the general feel of people.

IMO the op seems more to me like God is a deadbeat dad instead of it in the form of a question.

Guess you missed all the quotes that actually support Him not being one .. like the NDEs. It was rather well balanced. But even if it weren't ... so what? The question would still be valid.

it was my opinion, and i have been corrected. just the way it's worded. most of it's against god.

↑
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lol cant figure this qoute thing out.

[edit on 19-8-2010 by JesusisTruth]

FlyersFan, I'm REALLY sorry to hear that you're ill... I mean really.

I can't answer the question, because I'm an atheist. But this is such a well-written and thought-provoking thread that I wanted to come in and say that I know many people turn away from their faith because of this very question. People who manage to stay with their faith are those who will accept, unquestioningly, and it's clear that you're not that kind of person.

Really good thread!

I'm using my God-given brain to ask a valid question.
That's not 'rebelling'. That's exploring and learning.
[FF]


it's exploring and learning without an overtone. learning without understanding can lead to rebellion. I wasn't implying it was you rebelling. sorry for the misunderstanding.


I've heard all these arguments before. At this time those excuses for God sound more like things man has made up ... sort of a self inflicted mental medicine to help make the unreasonable seem reasonable.
[FF]


so my life story is an excuse. so you're implying i just lied about that whole story which caused my ass 5 years of pure suffering which brought good to me.

just wondering girl becaus im not.




toooodles.


If a wife is abused by her husband ... he beats her and inbetween beatings he says "i love you" "this is for your own good" and then beats her some more ... and she stays with him because he 'runs the house' and she craves hearing him say "i love you' between beatings ... we'd say that was a serious abusive relationship and that she needs to get out of it fast
[FF]



the difference is, is that the husbands judgement is incorrect and baised on his own pridefull judgementalness and hatred mixed with lack of grace.

everything god allows is calculated, even saying in scripture that no hair falls off of our heads without his consent.

again, this is a lack of understanding that could lead to rebellion.

keep searching and exploring op and you will find the answers.

toodles back. i use toodles alot too. maybee we are soulmates.

peace.

and think this op. how much do WE really care? I mean we see people dying on the news, we sigh for about 10 minutes, and then laugh later at some idiot on vh1 making jokes about a 1980s music video.

see, we don't care as much as we think we do. It makes us feel better sometimes to think we care more than we do.

I see it all the time. people watch the news about 100 s dying and they forget 1 hour later and it doesn't affect them as much as they think it does.

whereas God sees this individual that dies and follows them throughout life and cares for one thing only, their eternal state of happiness.


if God was deadbeat he wouldn't gave us rules. he would of said im uncle tom, anything goes. rules show he cares.

Thanks for the clairification, Flyers and sorry to hear : (

Not going to try to come up with anything deep or Hallmark Card-y

It sucks . Nothing anyone can say will help

So get stuck into that anger, if that's the current Stage. Do a damn good job with the anger. Freaking exhaust it. Use it to smack the face of the Big Sky / It / Fate / God/s, whatever. Bare your teeth and HOWL at it .... ' Give me my freaking HEALTH back ! '

Take your car out on a lonely country road, crank up the stereo, get some high-energy music going and TELL that Big Sky / It/ Fate / God/s whatever, how you feel. RAGE and get it all out. Make demands. It / They appreciate that. The results can be astonishing (speaking from experience here)



As to the responses here re: the thread topic


--- as I predicted --- rationalisations and pablum

Nothing to offer except worn-thin platitudes and nonsense

and the tired-to-death whines of 'free will '


The old catch-all excuse of 'free will '

they don't even know what it means. They just repeat it any time they don't have an answer. Just as when it was tossed-off desperately by some clergyman who could see his room and board being snatched back by the villagers who were working to keep him in the warmth while they were laboring out there in the cold. ' Why is God so cruel ? ' they demanded. And that priest, desperate to stay in the wamrth had a brain-wave and came up with the nonsensical concept of 'free will '

It made no sense to him, but it was so unexpected that it took the villagers by surprise. What a novel idea. Ah, they said to each other in wonder, ' So that's what it's about ... free will. Ok. Explains everything '

and the concept of Blaming the Victim was born --- and those desperate to cling to their beliefs because they don't have the courage to live without them, have been citing 'free will ' ever since ---- still hoping it will silence rebellion and the emergence of truth


The constantly cited 'free will' is an illogical, ignorant, insulting and stupid LIE

Free Will demands there be provided CHOICE !

They prattle on with 'free will, freee will, free will '. No thought. No brain. Just repeating like parrots without a clue

FREE WILL presupposes CHOICE ! Please get that into your heads and take it to your priest, rabbi, vicar and educate them, too !

Here's your scenario : demented man seizes child from its parents' backyard. He drags child half a mile away. His eyes are wild, his breathing labored. He's not thinking straight, but he doesn't know that because he's never thought straight, ever since he was whacked over the head aged seven by a badly aimed baseball bat.

The child is screaming in terror. As he tears of the child's clothes, he rams its underwear down its throat to keep it quiet. Then he rapes that child, aged three. Then he drags the still living child down to the open drain and pulls a log over it. Runs his fingers through his hair, buttons his shirt, scrambles up to the roadside and hitches a ride. Ten miles further along, he strangles the driver and proceeds on his way.

Meanwhile, down in the drain, the child finally breathes her last. The coroner will subsequently declare the child died from a combination of drowning, suffocation, internal injuries

The rapist-killer is captured and subsequently incarcerated

People in forums vent their rage, despair, impotence by writing in bold italics that the animal rapist should die and burn in hell. Many alleged Christians state it as a certainty that he will go to hell

When challenged, the alleged Christians begin arguing for 'free will '. The rapist is EVIL, they say. He CHOSE to do as he did. And they are further enraged when the prison psychiatrist claims the rapist has brain-damage which could be genetic or may have been caused by a blow to the head sometime in the past

NO ! screams the public. He's a monster. He should be executed and go straight to hell

Free will, scream the alleged Christians. He chose the Debil's side ! He will surely go to hell. He had Free Will. He COULD have chosen God's side but no ... he had to go and choose the Debil's side and now God will put him in hell forever and ever. As if that fixes everything.

But what exactly does it fix ? They don't care. For them, it confirms what they want to believe -- about Free Will and about God vs Debil and about Heaven (where they think THEY are going) and Hell (where the smugly believe amost everyone else is going)

Well here's the news: the rapists DID have brain damage. That means he was NOT responsible for his actions, appalling though they were. He did NOT have a choice between good and evil, God and Debil. Therefore ---- he did NOT exercise 'free will'


Ok. Now Let's look at the child. The child had NO choice about what hapened to it. It was provided NO choice at all. Yet it was made to suffer more than anyone. So no 'free will' there, either

Now, who had the power to STOP it happening ?

Come on --- you know, so spit it out

Don't want to say ? Don't want to admit it ?

Too stubborn, are you ?

Too bad

GOD had the power to stop it before it happened --- and at any time after events began to unfold. GOD DID. GOD HAD FREE WILL !

The rapist didn't have free will. The child didn't have free will. The child's parents didn't have free will. The coroner didn't have free will as to whether or not he wanted to see that child and how it had suffered. Nor did the police or journalists at the scene. Nor did the child's grandparents or siblings. Nor did the rapist's shamed family. Nor did the motorist killed by the rapist-killer. Nor did the motorist's family, etc.

GOD had the power to STOP it.

God did NOT stop it

GOD had free will. And OBVIOUSLY -- God made it's choice

And GOD"S choice was to allow that rapist to seize and rape and kill that little child

GOD stood by second by second as that child endured suffocation, terror and excruciating physical agony

Could you stand by and watch that happen ?

I sure couldn't

God could. God did. God made his/her choice not to stop it

So put the blame where it fits

God was the only one there who had free will


now for once in your lives have some courage and face the truth




.

Ps: I'm going to offer you 'free will' believers an escape hatch

Her's some 'free will' for you

You can CHOOSE. You're being provided a CHOICE -- which is the foundation -stone of 'free will'

Here's your choice: either GOD was responsible

or

God wasn't around. He wasn't there. Or he just didn't care.

Or this planet exists under the auspices of a God which enjoys rape, murder, injustice, wars, friction, suffering, etc

Now, maybe the god of this planet is not the God to whom you pray ? Maybe the god to whom you pray is occupied elsewhere and had nothing at all to do with the creation of this planet or humans ?


Enjoy your choice and free-will


..

[edit on 19-8-2010 by Dock9]

reply to post by Dock9


Very well written and I stand corrected

In this case it would be a nightmare for a believer to justify God's inaction, and free will doesn't cut it.


Right or wrong however, this does not change my view on my God, i know that He is not a deadbeat dad, for He does exactly what is written in the Bible... I don't recall it saying anywhere that He would intervene in the case of a natural disaster or war, or anything else for that matter. He does say however, that he would act upon the prayers of a faithful person, and that he has done in the life of many.