What Obama Got Wrong About the Mosque by Sam Harris

What Obama Got Wrong About the Mosque by Sam Harris

I found this to be the best formed and least emotional argument against building the Ground Zero mosque I have read. I hope you will read it, it is not that long (3 pages on the Daily Beast website) and consider the points made.

What Obama Got Wrong About the Mosque

reply to post by Hemisphere


A few excerpts for those that refuse to read:

Should a 15-story mosque and Islamic cultural center be built two blocks from the site of the worst jihadist atrocity in living memory? Put this way, the question nearly answers itself. This is not to say, however, that I think we should prevent our fellow citizens from building “the ground zero mosque.” There is probably no legal basis to do so in any case—nor should there be. But the margin between what is legal and what is desirable, or even decent, leaves room for many projects that well-intentioned people might still find offensive.

This:

These people are wrong about almost everything under the sun. The problem, however, is that they are not quite wrong about Islam.

And finally:

Such failures of secular nerve can be given a general description: Tolerance of religious stupidity has a way of making liars and cowards of people who should have nothing to fear from the fruits of honest reasoning.

I hope these quotes have at least piqued your interest. The entire article is worth posting piece by piece in my opinion. That is not what we do here. I think it is worthy of a few of your minutes to read it. I look forward to your thoughts.

Or we have freedom of religion in this country.. and thats all that matters.

Obama supports the right for them to build it. But he never said it was a good idea.

OH NO OBAMA IS OUT THERE SUPPORTING RIGHTS RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE.

reply to post by Hemisphere


President Obama said he supported the rights of those citizens to build a mosque there, not whether he agreed with everything muslims have done, so I fail to see what the point of this thread was? This guy in your source even admitted that they have a right to build a mosque there and that there is no legal basis for barring them in doing so.... so whats the point in titling the thread 'what Obama got wrong' when that guy essentially admitted the mosque sponsors were in their right?

reply to post by Southern Guardian


On 9/11 an act of war was perpetrated by a group of Islamist extremists upon the citizens of NYC and the united states of America. We were not attacked by a sovereign nation we were attacked by a group wielding and formed by the intolerant Islamic ideology. Those that attacked were not alone and those living continue to back their actions. That there are those too frightened to completely separate themselves from the attacking intolerant ideology and too non-committal to the ideology to live it to it's full intolerant intent, should not weigh into the building of this hostile encampment. War was declared on all of the people of this country, no truce has been declared. This will be a surrender. Just my opinion.

i read it, and found it equally as emotional as anything else in rebuttal to the cultural center i have read.

though he appears to be well versed and educated, he still states opinions as facts.

i just cant seem to get over how VERY FEW people want to consider 9/11 in its entirety, instead wishing to sort of begin in the middle; accepting that what we are told of 9/11 is true, therefore negating any obligation to ACTUALLY THINK.

Originally posted by Hemisphere
reply to post by Southern Guardian

 

On 9/11 an act of war was perpetrated by a group of Islamist extremists upon the citizens of NYC and the united states of America.

Irrelevant to my previous point. How can you title the thread 'what Obama got wrong' when the president stated that he supported the right those people to build a mosque there? Your source even admitted there was no legal basis for barring those people in building a mosque there so... what exactly did Obama get wrong in his statement?

And yes islamist extemists attacked the citizens of America in 9/11, fanatical christians did all sorts of violent injustices in the past. Their actions were not reflective of all.

We were not attacked by a sovereign nation we were attacked by a group wielding and formed by the intolerant Islamic ideology.

You were attacked by islamic extremists. They do not reflect every single other muslim out there.

intolerant ideology

and there are no intolerant christians?
and there are no intolerant jews?

Add some more in there when you need be.

War was declared on all of the people of this country,

By a terrorist organisation, not by every muslim.

And regardless of whether this guy just had an opinion, his comments and your thread was based upon 'what Obama got wrong', and yet Obama stated he supported the right of those people to establish a mosque there. Your source admitted so.

So what did Obama get wrong again?

Originally posted by 54v!0r531f
i read it, and found it equally as emotional as anything else in rebuttal to the cultural center i have read.

though he appears to be well versed and educated, he still states opinions as facts.

i just cant seem to get over how VERY FEW people want to consider 9/11 in its entirety, instead wishing to sort of begin in the middle; accepting that what we are told of 9/11 is true, therefore negating any obligation to ACTUALLY THINK.

The POTUS is "accepting that what we are told of 9/11 is true, therefore negating any obligation to ACTUALLY THINK." What do you think his position is on the "official story"? I think the "official story" is his story. It makes this a legal no-brainer. Who am I to challenge the POTUS? I am exactly the person to challenge as I have no obligation to accept the "official story". I am still capable of and allowed freethought. I think the open discussion and challenging of this mosque might lead to further public dissection of the "official" 9/11 story. That can't be a bad thing.

Harris gives us the following regarding Islamic doctrine:

Thus, when Allah commands his followers to slay infidels wherever they find them, until Islam reigns supreme (2:191-193; 4:76; 8:39; 9:123; 47:4; 66:9)—only to emphasize that such violent conquest is obligatory, as unpleasant as that might seem (2:216), and that death in jihad is actually the best thing that can happen to a person, given the rewards that martyrs receive in Paradise (3:140-171; 4:74; 47:5-6)—He means just that. And, being the creator of the universe, his words were meant to guide Muslims for all time.

He has apparently researched the verses. This is part of Harris' thing, commenting on religious ideologies. He is an outspoken atheist author and political commentator. He is challenged often on his views, not on his research. Are the verse translations he cites here opinion or fact? I think fact. Are there Muslims on ATS that can challenge the translations?

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
How can you title the thread 'what Obama got wrong'

I'm rather sure that the ATS website prefers and perhaps insists that we give titles quoted directly from the source material. I think that's correct to the letter of the law here. That would be similar to what the president is doing, upholding the letter of the law and not the spirit. That is how I see him being both right and wrong in this instance. Just my opinion.

You silly Americans....

You bitch you whine, you complain about a mosque near Ground Zero only fueled by FOX bull# and latent racism.

It's offending to the victims of 9/11 i hear all the time...
If it's so offending , then consider this:

Since 2003 the USA has been creating thousands of "Ground Zero's" right next to mosques in Iraq....

but that's not a problem.... go figure....

reply to post by XyZeR


Give me a break . That's what gets me, people the world over always complain about the USA being at war. The USA isnt even 300 years old, are you going to sit there and tell me YOUR homeland wasnt violent 300 years into it's exsistence? Ofcourse not because most of YOUR countries are still raging barbarian hordes. Another thing people like to cry about is the USA taking land from the Natives and the Mexicans. I'm assuming Europeans just magically appeared in there places of origin without any blood shed. Europe has the bloodiest history of all... The Crusades, The Inquisition, The Holocaust, 2 world wars(to name a few their little sweethearts) But damn those Americans and there war in Iraq.

Originally posted by FrancoUn-American
reply to post by XyZeR

 

But damn those Americans and there war in Iraq.

FYI it's "their" not "there war".... Basic English (which is my 3th language but i seem to be able to spell it better... go figure)

Lol what kind of retarded backwards logic is that..
"Europe did it in the dark ages, so the USA has every right to be in an (illegal, unjustifiable ) war..."
It's not about the war, it's about the hypocrisy of being against a mosque (2 blcoks away) from ground Zero.

Btw it's totally off topic, were discussing the "fabricated" controversy about the new New York Mosque.

Maybe you should all protest against McDonalds as well, since they are responsible for the death of more Americans then the 9/11 attacks...

Americans have no right to criticize the mosque near ground zero, it's pure and utter hypocrisy fueled by nothing more then the constant demonisation of Muslims and every person with a darker skin.

Ofcourse not because most of YOUR countries are still raging barbarian hordes.

Lol thats just a silly, childish, dumb, ignorant statement, to which i'm not even going to respond. barbaric hordes LMAO...

here: watch these pictures of actual things near the "hallowed" ground zero that you need to oppose and get "angry" and "worked up" about...

Once again I find myself wondering why I feel awkward trying to express my thoughts on this Mosque matter on ATS, but here goes.

I am the type of person that once any bit of truth touches me, I am unable to live my life or act as if that small element of truth does not exist. I don't act or live my life as if that truth did not touch me nor do I pretend that I don't know what I know just to appear politically correct.

The only reason I state this is because all this Muslim Mosque deliberation is a "Red Herring." In fact, I think it is a test to see just how brain dead Americans are, and in my opinion, Americans failed the test dismally. Now that the test has been failed, the NWO will proceed on to their next item on their evil agenda.

I firmly believe that 911 was a staged and false flag intelligence operation. Now as long as you haven't been living on Jupiter, you should know that 911 was an intelligence operation involving many players, but the one player group that was not Muslim was the Israeli Mossad. They appeared to control the operation and I for one believe that point. While much exists to support this acknowledgment, it appears everyone wants to forget what Godless Zionist did in the name of Israel and replace it with what Muslims had nothing to do with. Typical double think.

Now, if 911 was a false flag operation conducted by intelligence operatives, then the Muslims are not who 911 paints them to be. In fact, it is that continuing 911 Muslim concocted lie that keeps Muslims in the headlines and it is that continuation of the same old lies. Meanwhile, the perpetrators of 911 that have stigmatized the Muslims around the world are supported in their secrecy by those that choose to blame the Muslims instead of those who did 911 or had direct involvement.

While it is sad to blame an event such as 911 on Muslims when others did the evil, it is a perfect example of how brain dead many have become over "Muslims" and not those that committed 911.

The media, the government and many others constantly bombard us with propaganda, but to think that the Muslims did 911 is where the lie begins. If you don't think that 911 was properly investigated or if answers don't sound right, then give the benefit of the doubt to the Muslims and for crying out loud, remember that the Muslims didn't do it.

Oh well, this is exactly in my opinion why Americans are unable to think or to use logic to see that if 911 was a staged false flag operation, then the Muslims didn't do it. If those that did it aren't Muslims, don't you think we should be going after those that did? Well, the fact that so many know this truth and do not go for those that did do the evil while blaming the Muslims, is to me, just how the elite measure how brain dead the population is at any given moment. When Americans say nothing and especially nothing about the fact that Muslims didn't do it, that is when the elite nod their heads and say the drugs and chemicals are working just fine. Just fine indeed.

Thanks for the posting, but I myself will not forget nor discount the elements of truth that support the thought that 911 was not done by Muslims. With that little kernel of fact, I cannot go through life using Muslim religion to satisfy my need to hate some group or some religion. In fact, I don't want to hate anyone, but I will not blame something on Muslims when they didn't do it.

The NWO once it completes its One World Government and One World Banking System, will claim that all religions are to blame for wars. Under such idiocy, they will then introduce the need for a One Word Religion and when that happens you will no doubt remember that once we were a nation of different people of different religions. We lived with each other and we placed our nation over our religion. We once believed in truth and justice for all. Not justice for some because someone lied about them and did a good job doing it. Real truth and real justice is what the whole Mosque issue has missing and I for one cant sit and say nothing about it.

Today, we are herded, deceived and chemically slow killed to appease those that truly no longer represent the people or America. I have no doubt they measure our ability to think in such matters and in this one, I think we failed miserably to acknowledge just how awake we really are to what crimes they are performing in the name of American values and freedom for all.

Thanks for the posting.

emotions are not needed to understand the mosque situation:

1.) Its not a mosque. Stop calling it so
2.) Its not at Ground Zero, it's blocks away
3.) The arguments against this center going up are so stupid they seem intentional.

Islam did not bring down the twin towers.

Just like Christianity did not bring down the Oklahoma city building.



-NOW- with that being said - I better not hear anyone bitching when a gay bar goes right next door.

Tolerance goes both ways.

Originally posted by MaxBlack

I firmly believe that 911 was a staged and false flag intelligence operation. Now as long as you haven't been living on Jupiter, you should know that 911 was an intelligence operation involving many players, but the one player group that was not Muslim was the Israeli Mossad. They appeared to control the operation and I for one believe that point. While much exists to support this acknowledgment, it appears everyone wants to forget what Godless Zionist did in the name of Israel and replace it with what Muslims had nothing to do with. Typical double think.

Now, if 911 was a false flag operation conducted by intelligence operatives, then the Muslims are not who 911 paints them to be. In fact, it is that continuing 911 Muslim concocted lie that keeps Muslims in the headlines and it is that continuation of the same old lies. Meanwhile, the perpetrators of 911 that have stigmatized the Muslims around the world are supported in their secrecy by those that choose to blame the Muslims instead of those who did 911 or had direct involvement.

Thank YOU for that Max. If your points were correct, then (as now) we could speculate that the current NYC mayor and the current POTUS, among many, are complicit to the Zionist plot. Am I reading too much into this?

My point is this was either a false flag event or it was an act of war but it was not both. We can not rationally allow this to be treated like an act of war overseas while a false flag event at ground zero. TPTB need to be called out on this and that is exactly what those standing up to the mosque are doing in my opinion. If local Muslim New Yorkers, aside from the Imam, are driving this I have yet to see evidence to that. If someone has news of that we would all like to see it.

Let's look at this event from another perspective.

What if deranged Christians had flown into these buildings and it was a Christian group that wanted to build this building.

How many of you would be complaining?

reply to post by Hemisphere



On 9/11 an act of war was perpetrated by a group of Islamist extremists upon the citizens of NYC and the united states of America.

That's an interesting opinion.. considering the hardest hard core most radicalized muslims, the taliban, disagree.. they believe 9/11 was self inflicted used as an excuse to occupy/rape muslim land/people. This according to david rohde, a nyt scribe & Pulitzer award winner who was held captive by taliban shot callers..

www.youtube.com...

If a handful of apple pie loving us marines spent chump change to sucker iran into 2 wars, eroding rights, bankruptcy, internal strife etc.. nationalism would dictate a new mt rushmore be built with their gritty heroic mugs indelibly emblazoned in stone for generations to celebrate...

Yet the taliban dont honor the alleged 9/11 hijackers as martyrs, on top of that.. the taliban condemned the 9/11 attacks.

Afghanistan's Taliban rulers condemned the attacks and also vehemently rejected suggestions that Osama bin Laden, who had been given asylum in Afghanistan, could be behind them.

en.wikipedia.org...

..and an "attack on America", nah.. overly dramatic.. like claiming a broken pinky toe requires a full body cast or a bee sting rates amputation. millions of angry Chinese troops storming the s/w border and/or 20 cities vaporizing into nuclear pablum would be an attack on America..

3 buildings in one of 1000s of cities were "attacked" by a few yet to be found guilty suspects.. an isolated incident inflated into a "war" on terror... like some cheesy low budget b-movie dean kane or eric roberts would be embarrassed to star in.

Originally posted by GovtFlu

3 buildings in one of 1000s of cities were "attacked" by a few yet to be found guilty suspects.. an isolated incident inflated into a "war" on terror... like some cheesy low budget b-movie dean kane or eric roberts would be embarrassed to star in.

Hey, hey now, Dean Kane phoned to say it's not slated to be low budget. Eric Roberts could not be reached for comment on the set of his latest cheesy low budget b-movie.

The current president is on record (this from prior to his being a part of the Senate) as having opposed the war in Iraq from the start and still here we are in two wars. I stated earlier: "We can not rationally allow this to be treated like an act of war overseas while a false flag event at ground zero." Disclosure is in order or we must continue to act rationally based on what little we have been given. The "official story". What is this Mr. President?

Oh, a post where he compares the mosque to a giant statue of satan.
Totally not emotional response at all.

Originally posted by GeorgeH
Let's look at this event from another perspective.

What if deranged Christians had flown into these buildings and it was a Christian group that wanted to build this building.

How many of you would be complaining?

I would think that would go very much like Sunni verses Shia confrontations in Islamic countries. A lot of death and destruction with one of those groups cursing the other for being more fully committed to the Islamic scriptures.