"What's with the anger on ATS?"

ATS has a troll problem. People are closed minded because they cant have the "smoking gun".

Mind you- the discussions of sensitive issues that are had on this forum can be laid to rest with testimonies and evidence from certain persons who really do KNOW a thing or two.

If I had a smoking gun, would I lay it up for all to see on ATS- indexed on search engines and linked around facebook?!

No wonder there is angst- the people who know are scared to say... The people who want to know, never get answers.

This forum is a social arena; as if lives are not at stake. THEY ARE.

yep ,i am guilty too, but discussions are heated and its hard for people not to state their emotions when speaking of something they are passionate about, its the human in us all, to state our case but emotions run riot.
may be we need a positive forum in here, where only nice topics can be discussed, its been asked for before and ignored.

I do think it is something that needs to be recognised, I believe I have noticed an increased aggressive tone on ATS over recent times. I have seen it dismissed though; not merely as part and parcel of life (it is) but in reference as a motivating force. Here I think a distinction needs to be made. Anger is not simply another name for passion, think of all the different passions you feel in your life. That reserved for your lover, for you hobby, your job or your family. Anger is a form that passion can take and while it can be utilized as a motivating force, I've never known it to outlast love and I do think negative emotion rarely outlives its positive counterpart. I have considered reasons for believing this, how much energy does it take to be angry? How much does it take to be peaceful? The expenditure of energy when compared might seem enough in itself when considering longevity but it may also be that this is due in part to the actual source of anger so often being misunderstood. We are frequently misdirected by small things that raise our hackles but I rarely find those things which anger me are a genuine cause of affront; it is far more often that I look back on the event and discover my anger stems from a personal frustration. Should I act in anger then I would be building upon rotten foundations and even if the anger is great those foundations would remain just as frail.

Nor would I feel any ease after engaging in any argument in anger. Any victory would be impotent; it would not be constructively addressing a real issue. I would, as is the way with negative emotions, merely be spreading my anger which does not deplete the anger felt but only leads to an overall increase of disquiet in the world. Think of a happy time for you, a time when you walked with an infectious smile, a radiating heart and wished nothing but goodwill to all. Did that desire to, or act of sharing your happiness detract from the total amount of joy in your heart, or did it just bathe all those you came into contact with at no expense to yourself? I have found it to be the same with anger; from what I have seen practiced in life the phrase 'misery loves company' seems to have been born out more often than not but negative emotions such as frustration, misery or anger are not diminished by venting upon others – this merely increases the amount of unhappiness that exists.

If all that sounds a bit much think of how you react when met with hostility, then of how you react when met with kindness. Which greeting holds more positive potential?

Specifically in regards to ATS: Even if you believe so strongly in your position that you enter into debate refusing to even contemplate the possibility that you may be incorrect is it really productive for a teacher to reply to a student with aggressive dismissal rather than illuminating explanation? Even if you believe you are absolutely correct but it is your moral duty to enter the debate and show that to be the case isn't that moral aspect automatically accompanied by the requirement to explain why x+x=y? If you enjoy maths and wish to share correct a misunderstanding shouting at a child that 4+4 equals 8 may have the effect of leaving the child believing that to be the case but only until the next screamer, who holds a differing opinion, arrives. (By which time you may be knackered!) Explaining why 4+4=8 leaves a strong foundation, offering an explanation of why exactly this is the case not only leaves the subject better prepared to defend against simply bullying or manipulative tactics in future but also with an understanding that may even foster a deeper interest in mathematics and a desire to further their understanding. Perhaps then you may end up collaborating with them, perhaps through an insight born of their understanding of the subject they may enhance your enjoyment by teaching you at some point.

I certainly see no reason to suggest that passion should be struck from the soul prior to entering to discussion but I believe we should consider just how that passion is trying to manifest itself making sure it arises for noble reasons. If we find that to be the case then, obliged to reason itself, duty is executed by not only going forward to extend that reason to others but doing so with grace. There will be those who come to cast opinions we view as negative, hostile comments based on differences in culture, nationality, political persuasion, ethnicity, social group, financial status, religious bents, philosophical positions; you name it - we are all targets to someone. We may not be able to change that overnight but we can moderate how we react with a view to refusing to retaliate in such a way that serves only to reinforce negative practices or beliefs. This holds twofold benefit; if we decide to reject the initial offer to suffer (insult/outrageous statement) by truly considering our position and by doing so either reinforce the foundations of understandings we have or wash away others to see them replaced by stronger, more reliable ones then, as well as reaching a position where we are not so vulnerable that a hasty or curt comment could give rise to that wave of anger in the chest which opens the way for retaliation (so often misdirected because our reason, which specifies the target, is not given time to properly survey the field of action) rather than considered response, we may also find our reasoning improved to the point where it benefits us in everyday life. After all, the MSM are influential and are likely to stay in that position of authority, making use of those same tactics, for at least a while yet. We are all vulnerable to the games played, you do not have to participate directly to become involved. Sensationalist and emotive topics delivered through journalism seamlessly intertwined with editorial comment designed to offer increased stimulus and repeated attention, travels through the immediate consumer and, via everyday interaction, permeates society.

Such tactical use of passion as a motivating force is used when it is believed reason would refuse sanction. Passion is part of our make-up, emotion hooks us and I don't believe there will ever be a time when this is not so; it certainly appears to have been so for as long as we know and I hope that it never changes, it is the basis for the most noble acts of humanity. It could be said that it has, is and forever will be the driving force behind mankind. I do not find that proposition completely disagreeable, consider what we have achieved so far (hands up all those who are part of a species which has adventured beyond its home world to set foot upon a moon), we just need to be careful.

If it transpires that our reason was mistaken we still benefit, we strengthen it through excercise and learning where we erred before. It would seem a win (benefit to all) -win (defensive benefit through refusal of easy offense) - win (strengthen through excercise) situation.

Here's a couple of links I found made for good reading:

How to Want to Change Your Mind
Knowing About Biases Can Hurt People


If passion drives you, let reason hold the reins - Benjamin Franklin.

Ever been to a bar or a party with a bunch of loud mouth drunks? Everyone of them believes that they are right, are far to inebriated to acknowledge the validity of another persons claims, can't see past the nose on their face and, in general, aren't all that bright. They will escalate the most trivial conversations to the brink of all out war. The louder they get the more morons lemming their way over to throw in their two cents.

That is ATS.

In the military we called it swollen balls. There is far too much testosterone going around and far too many rules preventing people from the violence that they wish upon one another. There is really one of two ways to handle this, and since I don't see the mods throwing down some cash for a free for all prostitute, I think we need to just take it out back and have a nice ol' fashioned dust up. Just get it out of the system, nobody really wins that crap anyways and everyone is always best buddies after. Then, when the balls have returned to their more French appearance...sorry, I can't help myself... we can get back to ACTUAL ALTERNATIVE NEWS INSTEAD OF A BUNCH OF Op-ed GARBAGE.

I came here to read about secret government bases on the moon. Not some Midwestern bible thumper BS about the evils of homosexuality and its comparison to bestiality or the sins of teaching evolution. If I wanted to listen to that crap I would watch Fox news.


[edit on 24-8-2010 by TheWrongStuff]

Originally posted by TheWrongStuff
I came here to read about secret government bases on the moon. Not some Midwestern bible thumper BS about the evils of homosexuality and its comparison to bestiality or the sins of teaching evolution. If I wanted to listen to that crap I would watch Fox news.

Amen brother (Pun intended)

We all have things we feel passionate about.
If we stop to examine those subjects wed probably find that many others are frustrated for lack of hard data too.
We tend to nit pick each other when insufficient data is available to make any headway with those interests.....
The ptb are busy with their divide and conquer strategy, if we do not respect each others views and practice tollerance we will never unite
into a strong enough voice to accomplish anything useful.
ATS is one of a kind, and its members usually do respect each others positions.
I feel the stress of trying to get to the bottom of so many different mysterys,with little but our own personal resources, and researches, is so damn maddening that the tone just ratchets up gradually over time...
If we could only make some collective headway in nailing down the truth to a bunch of questions wed be probably too busy co operating with each other on that to be nasty or snide to each other.

I know why I'm angry.. cause every time I log on, I have to listen to everybody's stupid opinion on politics, which seems to dominate 99% of threads now adays, instead of the paranormal/alien/other categories that originally brought me here

Not that my opinions aren't stupid too

I'm angry because they canceled Farscape.

I try not to take it out on the members though.

Originally posted by JAK ... Specifically in regards to ATS: Even if you believe so strongly in your position that you enter into debate refusing to even contemplate the possibility that you may be incorrect is it really productive for a teacher to reply to a student with aggressive dismissal rather than illuminating explanation? Even if you believe you are absolutely correct but it is your moral duty to enter the debate and show that to be the case isn't that moral aspect automatically accompanied by the requirement to explain why x+x=y? ...

Of course the most generous thing to do is to explain. But sometimes it just gets to be too much or too many times.

If someone gets you mad, it's not your responsibility to be nice, explain things and make them smarter. I feel entitled to give them back the frustration they tried to give to me. If it matters, I used to teach for a living.

But if you know more than they do about topics x, y and z, you can probably also twist your argument so that their argument is eviscerated without them even quite understanding why. That's fun, and it doesn't really raise the level of heat -- merely transfers it.

None of this implies that I'm right. Maybe the other guy is right, I'm wrong and the whole thing is a delusion on my part. See, even then it's OK. Aside from seeming a bit smug perhaps, I didn't insult the guy back, I just made a comment that may be, or appear to be, meaningless.

But wearing your heart on your sleeve is not necessary. Don't add heat, add light. And perhaps a little jab with the rapier.

As a casual poster, i have noticed this as well. I come her for my breaking news, alternative discussions and the paranormal.

It seems like everything has turned into creationism vs. evolution, anti-obama vs. liberals, and hardcore debunking. - What i miss is a discussion in a polite tone.

I'm used to post on uncensored forums where everything goes, and i'm used to trolls and flamewars, but what goes on here is just sad.

I say the mods disallow the front page posting of Op-ed pieces. It will eliminate the bulk of the argument because most of the people reading probably only joined to voice their opinion on some random piece of opinionated BS that couldn't be proven or disproven in a thousand years of debate.

This is supposed to be a user contributed ALTERNATIVE NEWS SITE. Not what the F every stupid thought that crosses every retards mind at any given moment site...no disrespect to anyone with actual disabilities, but I think even you will agree that well over half of the posters and especially the random trolls and hacks on this site are really partially functioning retards.

That would probably track back the open hostility at least 1/4 the current I hate everyone that isn't me or doesnt agree with exactly what I say mentality.

But I enjoy open hostility and conflict. I believe that it provokes evolution. Not to adjust to another person’s personal view but to evolve to new levels in order to properly one up the other posters.

For those who want this to be a pure conspiracy board, can't they just put the conspiracy related topics as their favorites? Something I really like about this place is its configurability, I haven't seen that anywhere else.

Originally posted by intrepid
I'm angry because they canceled Farscape.

I try not to take it out on the members though.

If there's ever any reason for omnidirectional expressions of anger, it's over cancelling Farscape...unfinished! Spread the bonnie hammer!

I havent been a member long,,,actually im not very much of an internet/social media kind of guy (ive got facebook and thats as far as it goes).
however i was drawn to this site by the alternative news and views of the members,,( and the avatars,,,forgetaboutit

imha,

individualism,bigotry and intolerance is promalgated by the mainstream. unfortunately "most people" drink from that stream.coupled with the fact that ,regardless to education level "most people" tend to think subjectively vs objectively,,personalizing, not rationalizing,,,every differing opinion, fact based or not,becomes an attack on ones intelligence,offending that individual,causing them to stand even more firmly to their point of view,,,,they quite simply lack WISDOM

still a kick ass site! s&f

reply to post by consigliere


But people that want to "get it" can here. I've seen it in myself and others. I've changed some views. I've seen some that I thought would NEVER change a viewpoint happen too. The power of ATS. That's the membership. Of course you're always going to have those that are around just to preach, not learn.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord

The problem with anger is that it is irrational. Or you could say, it is not conducive to rational discussion, which is the goal at ATS.

As the staff have mentioned, there are forces at work in society (there always have been) that would prefer that people be irrational. Such forces, starkly, have criminal intent. There is no polite way to characterize them.

They act to poison human relations and they always will. If we see more irrational communications at ATS it probably indicates that those forces have stepped up their efforts. If you could measure it, it would serve as a sort of barometer.

I was raised to value rationality. Could this be a mistake? I think not, except if in condemning irrationality you also condemn epiphany. (Sorry, I had to use that word. In my dictionary "a moment of sudden intuitive understanding; flash of insight...")

Rationality (and epiphany for that matter) is odd because it requires a level of certainty, or self-confidence, on the part of the person being rational. Thus it is shakeable. Ill-intending persons can purposely try to shake your belief in the veracity of your own perceptions and conclusions. This can even happen by accident. Example: You could be pretty sure that cats don't like to get wet. Then you see a video of a cat swimming. Were you wrong or was the video a hoax? If you have good self-confidence you will probably look into the matter further and adjust your conclusions as necessary. Otherwise you may be prone to cry "foul" for no rational reason.

How did I, for example, come to the conclusion that we are living in a social environment that is heavily influenced by people who don't want us to think rationally and come up with workable solutions? First, I was brought up to be self-confident. Second, I felt it necessary to reject the standard answers that were being fed to me by parts of the media (in the '60's and '70's there was a LOT more freedom on media lines than there is today!) and the academic world. What lead to my distrust? The simple observation that the people "in charge" had been working on social problems for many years but statistics showed things weren't really improving. I was particularly upset by the amount of armed conflict that was going on (such as the Vietnam War, but that was only one of several major situations around the world). It seems the know-it-alls were failing us. So I concluded that they probably didn't know it all.

I went off and studied in other directions and found answers that made more sense to me. My parents started thinking I was a kook, but by that time I was living independently so it didn't matter what they thought.

But since that time, society has shut down quite a bit. To be "different" poses a bigger risk, and the risk was not that small back then, either. I now live as a marginalized individual because people with my smarts are supposed to go to college, and if they didn't, well, we'll look elsewhere. (This attitude is just a wild guess. People don't talk to me like that - usually.)

I don't blame people for being angry. But the ATS staff are right. The answer does not lie along the path of anger. It will, however, require a lot of self-confidence. So if someone is bashing you in a way that leaves you feeling like a stupid crumb, you might come to some conclusions as to which side he is on...

You've been flagged, Mr. Capone.
I totally agree with you, the MM play on your emotions, not your intellect. It's their job, & they are good at it!
We don't need it here!
Up to now i have been able to express myself freely (sometimes irritating some members)-which results in a certain amount of mud-slinging.
We've all done it, it's human nature
I tend to leave one snide comment in a thread & leave it at that, outside of expressing myself, i have no desire to derail a thread; if i want to go off-topic then i just U2U the other member.
There's always 'conspiracies about conspiracies' like the threads that suggest the Masons are running ATS. Now i don't know if that's true or not; it's actually immaterial, the most masons i've spoken to have been open, forthright & above all, polite. So i can discuss it with them, freely, right here. As long as no-one tries to actively subvert or control this site, i will remain.
Yes, i have questions, we all do.
We just need to focus on communication & discussion, global consciousness is not far off, but it has to come from each of us, forget predujice, politics, religion, race. Let's just get down to it!
If you seek world domination & are trying to divert us, you have failed!
ATS is (or should be) the shining light of this new global thinking renaissance.

Skeptic Overlord, I'll, be straight with you.

With all due respect, this might help a lot more if you would actually expose the problem as it is, instead of talking about the frustration and anger related to it, as it's got the effect of pointing the finger at people who have a problem with having threads supporting, as an example, Nazism and religious-based hatred, instead of the source of the issue, that is members who don't give a damn about being relevant and rather care about further promoting their racism and intolerance. To say that it's worst elsewhere doesn't help either, but rather justifies status quo. Moreover, there are blogs and forums out there which seem dedicated to racist or religious intolerance and hatred while hiding under the veil of "conspiracy" or "political discussion" website, and I was under the impression that ATS just can't be compared with these. Was I wrong?

There are major issues of racist hatred, antisemitism, religious intolerance, that plagues this website these days, and to just say it clear and loud as a moderator would be halfway into solving the matter. You don't need an overcomplicated system of rules and by-laws to deal with it, just first recognize the problem.

I, for one, have been supporting the anti-police and anti-state feeling and ideas around here, and did quite a few call-outs for violent actions against the NWO and whatever that enslaves most of us, but I sure wouldn't mind stopping to do that here if the neo-Nazis and other fascists would be STOPPED and/or denounced for spreading their hatred against people of all kinds, based on where they were born or what they irrevocably are. When ATS moderators will take a serious stand, through their actions, for a freedom of expression that abides to ideas of tolerance and respect for others, I'll calm down and stop reacting badly to it.

[edit on 27/8/10 by Echtelion]

reply to post by SkepticOverlord

You, Skeptic Overlord, may not read this and even if you read this you might ignore my POV. But one of the reasons for anger on ATS, and I don't speak for the membership but for myself and concentrate only on the Aliens and UFOs forum, is that the membership is very ignorant and not that well educated. Additionally, the majority of members are very gullible and lazy in terms of doing research. Very few members are open minded and employ reason, logic and common sense. Being an open forum, it attracts all kinds of people and since the majority of humans fail miserably in the intelligence department they gravitate to forums such as ATS that accepts all comers and has no restrictions on who can join. All web forums are like this. It's not the founder's fault, it's just that there's less and less intelligence out there.

Ideally, places such as ATS should be left to the gullible and uninformed and mentally lazy. There is no reason for any intelligence person to come here as they will be considered "pariahs" because what they end up doing is disagreeing with the gullible who is the majority here.

reply to post by sjrily


I have no idea if the other poster was sanctioned. All I know is that the other posts stand unchanged.