BLM Killing More Wild Horses (despite Congressional letter

This is pretty pathetic on their part. The only way to stop them would be to post these photos to congress.

I really don't get it. Why is it you can't upgrade your equipment to be clean and then build as opposed to change nothing and kill everything in your way. Would it honestly cost more to upgrade, not have another oil spill or something, and have more security in you actions? Micro sized clean energies work better every time.

Must I post 1950s films about this obvious fact?

While being a beautiful majestic creature, the horse is not an indigenous life form to the North American continent, and as such it's impact on the environment and habitat of other life forms naturally found here can be profound. Unfortunately the damage is already done and there is no real reason not to protect these animals from intentional harm.

The problem is, these animals do have an impact on their environment, other natural herbivores, indigenous to the area are in competition with these horses for food. The lack of predatory animals also presents a problem in the way of starvation and disease which may become more present in larger herds.

Ideally natural predators such as wolves can be introduced into habitats to naturally control populations. Unfortunately wolves can also become problematic if human habitation overlaps the wolves hunting grounds.

The other solution is hunting, (probably in this case capture and domestication is preferable.) but a stable number must be considered as the land can only sustain a certain number of any animal.

I don't see any easy solution to the problems here, unfortunately the short sightedness of introducing a large animal to this continent caused this problem in the first place. There is a similar problem in the southeast with wild pigs. Few predators means that populations of these animals grow far beyond what the land can sustain. In the pigs instance, they can also become nuisance animals.

reply to post by whatukno


I don't know how native the horse is to these lands (my understanding was that the Spaniards brought horses to the Americas) but the point is that BLM isn't clearing the horses to save the environment, other herbivores and animals on this land, they're clearing them so that they can (allegedly) exploit the land further (or at least that's what's being discussed here). I don't think there would be such an outrage about this if people perceived BLM's actions as something beneficial to the environment. I guess I could be wrong, but that's how I'm looking at it.

This is another prime example of having too many hands in the pie. We know Congress only gets involved when it serves their opinion polls.

Corporate America still controls what happens in this country and it is only when a majority of the people are "concerned" will the Government get involved. I for one will be writing to my congressmen. I have owned a few Mustangs and am well aware of they're value as breed of horse. What the BLM is doing is criminal and needs to be stopped. I hope everyone who reads this post will respond in kind.

Originally posted by whatukno
While being a beautiful majestic creature, the horse is not an indigenous life form to the North American continent

Actually, yes it was at one time indigenous- although differing from what we now know as domesticated horses.

The Hagerman Horse is known scientifically as Equus simplicidens, the oldest horse of the genus Equus, which goes back as far as 3.5 million years, and became extinct about 10,000 years ago. Equus, is the genus that includes all modern horses, donkeys, and zebras. The Hagerman specimens are from the Pliocene and Pleistocene ages.

Here is a link


Personally, I think that these roundups are not because the mustangs are impacting the local environment, and that there must be something more going on regarding the reasons for doing it. What that is, I don't know yet.

Regards,
T-



[edit on 10/8/16 by telemetry]

[edit on 10/8/16 by telemetry]

Originally posted by Sphota
On the one hand, they are not a native species and if they are harming the native ones, I can see the point of rounding them up.

On the other hand, they have been in the desert since Spanish colonial times and after nearly 500 years, I would assume some amount of generational adaptation to the environment would have occurred.

I mean, a void has been left since the buffalo were eradicated, and I'm sure some sort of harm occurred in the biospheres that make up the continent, including where the mustangs live. If the mustangs filled that niche that was left by the buffalo in a sustainable way, I wouldn't see a problem with them remaining. However, preferably, the buffalo would be reintroduced.

I'm sure neither will the ultimate outcome: no buffalo reintroduction, no mustang remaining.

Here in Florida, green iguanas from Central and South America have been growing in population over the last couple decades since people started letting them go or losing them (and as an 8 year old in the late 80s, I am as guilty as the next guy for losing mine). Now they live throughout South Florida, in and around water, canals, the Intracoastal, small lakes (including the man-made ones to make the entrance of cookie-cutter housing complexes look good) and, unfortunately, into the Everglades.

The problem is that they eat too much. However, as herbivores in a mostly urban area, cats, people, cars, and some birds (when the iguanas are young) are all "predators" that curtail their population. In the Everglades, alligators and other predators native to Florida will eat them.

I think the only concern is now with the backyard gardener who doesn't like to see their foliage eaten up. Removal is haphazard and moving the animals yourself is forbidden.

We had an unseasonable cold spell this last winter that really felled their numbers. The heartier ones survived, however, so I expect a come back and a future of iguanas that are more cold-resistant.

OK what farm did you come from? Horses are indigenous to the Americas, especially Mustangs! COWS ARE NOT! Please site where you got your information because it is so very flawed. Were you on the 'island'? You sound like it. It is the uninformed that are causing the pain and suffering on this planet. Oh, and those who have gardeners.

Editing for correction: It was not the Mustang per se that was indigenous to the Americas - the precursor to all horses was and the primary DNA strand began here. Hey, when I mess up, I clean up.

en.wikipedia.org...

"Today, the only true wild horse is the Przewalski's Horse, native to Mongolia. However, the horse family Equidae and the genus Equus evolved in North America. Studies using ancient DNA as well as DNA of recent individuals shows there once were two closely related horse species in North America, the "wild horse" (Equus ferus) and the "Stilt-legged Horse;" which is taxonomically assigned to various names.[4][5] Thus, primitive horses lived in North America in prehistoric times. "

[edit on 16-8-2010 by DaWhiz]

Originally posted by DaWhiz
OK what farm did you come from? Horses are indigenous to the Americas, especially Mustangs! COWS ARE NOT! Please site where you got your information because it is so very flawed. Were you on the 'island'? You sound like it. It is the uninformed that are causing the pain and suffering on this planet. Oh, and those who have gardeners.

You should probably check your info before you start degrading others.

All living horses today, especially mustangs, are NOT indigenous to the Americas. Sure, they are descended from species that originated in the Americas, but feral horses have been domesticated, changing them physiologically from their truly wild ancestors.

Originally posted by PieKeeper

Originally posted by DaWhiz
OK what farm did you come from? Horses are indigenous to the Americas, especially Mustangs! COWS ARE NOT! Please site where you got your information because it is so very flawed. Were you on the 'island'? You sound like it. It is the uninformed that are causing the pain and suffering on this planet. Oh, and those who have gardeners.

You should probably check your info before you start degrading others.

All living horses today, especially mustangs, are NOT indigenous to the Americas. Sure, they are descended from species that originated in the Americas, but feral horses have been domesticated, changing them physiologically from their truly wild ancestors.

After thinking long about this I think I agree with you. Horses may have once been native to this continent 10,000 years ago. But think about what has happened to this continent since then - an Ice Age, an almost complete wipe-out of natural predators in the area, extreme increase in human population, massive reduction of natural herding grounds, and we've dissected it with millions of roads. It's a different world.

I would LOVE to see some actual scientific data on exactly the kind of impact these horses are having, if any. The issue of having no natural predators (besides us) could end up being very important.

I don't know about the BLM's motives but I'm getting the impression their "data" is complete BS. Government agencies exist for many reasons but public welfare seems to rarely be one of them.

It would be realy sad if one of those helocopters were to crash and kill the pilot. [sarcasim]

So my queston is would the BLM have to pay the fine when the new Dust regulations go into effect? Or do they get a free pass?

Were are the wild west gunslingers when you need them! They'd sure as hell save the horses!

Originally posted by PieKeeper

Originally posted by DaWhiz
OK what farm did you come from? Horses are indigenous to the Americas, especially Mustangs! COWS ARE NOT! Please site where you got your information because it is so very flawed. Were you on the 'island'? You sound like it. It is the uninformed that are causing the pain and suffering on this planet. Oh, and those who have gardeners.

You should probably check your info before you start degrading others.

All living horses today, especially mustangs, are NOT indigenous to the Americas. Sure, they are descended from species that originated in the Americas, but feral horses have been domesticated, changing them physiologically from their truly wild ancestors.

You are right, I just used the wrong word there Mr. Piekeeper. But the point is, they are killing these horses for cow ranchers - the rich people who tried to sue Oprah Winfrey for telling people that red meat was bad for them. They are lying to the point that all truth will be hidden.
Also a feral horse is wild not domesticated. A domesticated horse is in a coral. Yes a domesticated horse turned loose becomes feral but those are different terms as well. So thanks for pointing that out ok? You do the same.

Originally posted by Sphota
[On the one hand, they are not a native species and if they are harming the native ones, I can see the point of rounding them up.]

You know what? My post was over the top sarcastic towards you and I hope you accept my apology. I thought the gardener/island/gee u must be rich quip was directional and it was not.
Again, my apologies.
da

Congress should get tough on the BLM and not simply ask them to stop their activities until a study can be completed, they should close the BLM down till the findings are in.

Especially now that the BLM snubbed their nose at Congress.

Doesn't Congress have this power?

Lets all write our Congressmen and Demand they shut down the BLM by force if necessary until the study is completed.

[edit on 16-8-2010 by JohnPhoenix]

Originally posted by PieKeeper

Originally posted by DaWhiz
OK what farm did you come from? Horses are indigenous to the Americas, especially Mustangs! COWS ARE NOT! Please site where you got your information because it is so very flawed. Were you on the 'island'? You sound like it. It is the uninformed that are causing the pain and suffering on this planet. Oh, and those who have gardeners.

You should probably check your info before you start degrading others.

All living horses today, especially mustangs, are NOT indigenous to the Americas. Sure, they are descended from species that originated in the Americas, but feral horses have been domesticated, changing them physiologically from their truly wild ancestors.

If THESE horses are so changed physiologically, then why is it they are thriving out in this territory?

reply to post by Springer


It is good to see ATS owners and perhaps mods? to be speaking directly from an authoritative source involved in the wild horse situation. That is good journalism. This approach should do well as an alternative news source for the flokes.

If BLM is overreaching it's reach as all Federal agencies are 'designed' to do in time, it should be disbanded altogether and the States should take back their rightly control and collective ownership of the territory in which bounds that State. If the people hold the authority of the State, as they do per Constitution and by natural rite, the people should be able to dispand any acronym agencies of which claims to be.....their owner.

The Federal govt., when transferred back into the hands of the 'flokes', is only necessary for defense of the nation. The States can more efficiently and effectively manage themselves. A person's rites should be most rightly recognized and realized at the community level. Only a bottom then up type of social structure will prove successful in the end. The only exception is when your looking Up. If you Know what I mean, you know what I m-EA+n. no.tm..


[edit on 16-8-2010 by Perseus Apex]

people are awful

thanks for calling this out

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix

Originally posted by PieKeeper

Originally posted by DaWhiz
OK what farm did you come from? Horses are indigenous to the Americas, especially Mustangs! COWS ARE NOT! Please site where you got your information because it is so very flawed. Were you on the 'island'? You sound like it. It is the uninformed that are causing the pain and suffering on this planet. Oh, and those who have gardeners.

You should probably check your info before you start degrading others.

All living horses today, especially mustangs, are NOT indigenous to the Americas. Sure, they are descended from species that originated in the Americas, but feral horses have been domesticated, changing them physiologically from their truly wild ancestors.

If THESE horses are so changed physiologically, then why is it they are thriving out in this territory?

They are thriving because they don't have any major predators keeping them in balance. The physiology comment was to help explain how we know they're the descendants of domesticated animals/not truly wild horses.

I live in the southwest. I can tell you 99 percent of the time it’s always, and I mean always about cattle grazing. There is no other motive at work here. Ranchers lease the lands from the BLM to graze big fat cattle. The cattle destroy more land than any other creatures out there period. Most state governments are getting mad about the overgrazing of public lands from cattle not horses. I’ve seen what 200 head of cattle did to my fishing spot. It’s all dirt now. Cattle grazing really messes up the land, it really does. It cost more money restoring these lands than what the government takes in leases. The ranchers don’t restore the land you do. It comes out of your tax dollars that states have to fight for from the federal government in some form of grant.

The federal government needs cash. So they lease more lands. Cattle grazing is more profitable for the BLM. If they go the oil route, the states get more of the cash than the federal government from the oil. Most of the prime oil drilling is not on BLM land though, cattle are.

I don’t buy the drought story. Even if that were the case then why are the cattle still their? The BLM always tell a story about drought, but never do you see the ranchers coming to get the cattle. There have been thunder-storms every night where I live; its monsoon season in the southwest and the rains are heavy at this time of year. I have seen more dead cattle than anything on the ranges. Drought is not what is killing them, I think maybe Diseases’ of some kind, but I not a Vet. ( think about that next time you buy a pound of meat.) But I never seen a dead horse on these ranges.

You guys have got to canoe down the Rio Grande sometime. You will see wild mustangs drinking from the river, swimming, and playing as you float on by. It’s site to behold.

You can stop this by not eating meat. I don’t. It’s as simple as that.

Originally posted by Patriotgal
Well, I OWN, 640 acres, of that land. I CONTROL, 9 square miles of it, because of the way, the land is bundled, in Nevada. I'll keep, ANY Mustangs or Burros, that wander onto, my" land!! I'll see to it, they have food & water. I'll "thin the herd", as necessary.
I'll also, "thin" any FEDGOV officers, that show-up, to hassle me!
I HAVE HAD ENOUGH, sabe???

Sic Semper Tyrannis!

S&F Patriotgal!!!

your are my hero of the day

this is sad i wish i could have ten minutes alone with anyone who would hurt an innocent animal, let them see how it feels