Revelation; 144,000

If you don't mind, an occultist perspective?

The 4 angels are practiced by some as the 4 angels that protect & intercede on behalf of the magician.

They are Uriel (West), Gabriel (South), Michael (East), and Raphael (North).

I also believe that it is said that Metatron has 144,000 eyes. Metatron, I think, is the keeper of the book of life - the record of all that is.

Perhaps one that is sealed is one that has a special purpose. Perhaps it is a mark indeed - like a brand. "He/She is in my service"

Now the tribe of Menasseuh, as I recall from when I looked it up, was a lost tribe - one that became pagan. Perhaps that is what lost really means? Perhaps even one that has wondered from the prescribed path can still have value.

Occultism is a strange thing. People think it is all about devil worship and stuff, but it is really all about connecting with God. It's a dangerous path for one's sanity though, especially if one has early training that is specifically against it - so I guess it is best people think what they will.

Originally posted by lucidclouds
It would make no sense for a great crowd that no man is able to number, to rule over a minority of 144,000.

The theory that the 144,000 would be the ones staying on earth is not mine; as I said, that's the "Rapture" theory.

I see no reason to divide them up at all. "God's people"- "end of story", as far as I'm concerned. But this brings us to the question of what exactly happens at the end of Revelation, and I'm not ready for that argument yet.

Originally posted by aorAki
www.gotquestions.org...

So the answer to the question “who are the 144,000?” will depend on which interpretive approach you take to the book of Revelation. With the exception of the futurist approach, all of the other approaches interpret the 144,000 symbolically, as representative of the church and the number 144,000 being symbolic of the totality—i.e., the complete number—of the church. Yet when taken at face value: “Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel” (Revelation 7:4), nothing in the passage leads to interpreting the 144,000 as anything but a literal number of Jews—12,000 taken from every tribe of the “sons of Israel.” The New Testament offers no clear cut text replacing Israel with the church.

So, if you're not Jewish you won't be part of the 144 000?

This whole charade seems to me like fear-mongering and favouritism based on nothing else but ethnicity and seems to be designed to keep people in their place and be good little worshippers, none of which we have seen at all given the state of the World.

I can hear them now: " oh, but it wasn't us who stuffed the World, it was those nasty non-believers and those people who went against christ, the lord."

Seriously, it's a fable, a made-up story, perhaps a prescription for living if you like living under the fearful guidance of a wrathful. jealous and veangeful deity, who ends up threatening people to try to make them come on side. a story, folks, geographically and culturally bound and one that has been picked up and distorted by people who are ignorant and fearful and lacking the mental fortitude to be able to see through the facade. I guess that's why we have stories like this.: to guide people towards a particular agenda.

You can no doubt guess that I feel that religions and gods are part of the problem.

144 000.
*chortle*

That's not many, is it!
It probably won't be YOU, either (well, it definitely won't as it ain't going to happen).

Rant over

exactly! couldn't have said it better myself

reply to post by DISRAELI


One question. Who do you believe they rule as king over?

reply to post by Danbones

Compare Revelation ch21;
"Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, ad God himself will be with them; he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away." Revelation ch21 vv3-4

Originally posted by aliengenes

Originally posted by aorAki

exactly! couldn't have said it better myself

And did you see my reply to that poster?
Pointing out that I was not taking literally the things he thought I was taking literally?
That he had not actually read the piece he was criticising?
And have you read the OP?

unless you follow something encouraging true growth to god like the kolbrin bible instead of the one that was made by Rome that all current bibles are translated from in there many versions. that they made from several books of true value, that they destroyed. i believe you have no chance to be one of those saved, thats why the number is so low, to many people follow this so called religion based on fear instead of it being about self growth to reach up to god.
over come your biased views and really think for yourself and seek god the one that created all, we are all his children , not the ones trying to control us look at your life and your world , dont we support the evil things we pretend to be against , how can one claim to be godly when one supports poisons/greed/lust, working at a job that destroys our rivers is supporting evil is it not? going to war is supporting the war is it not, working at a company building anything for the military is supporting the war is it not, think people. buying anything that is destroying our world is good really? being a hypocrite is not godly.

i guess flame on even tho i care about you all and would love to see our world at peace and full of love and not hate.in truth this world is so vile i would almost rather die then live among the sad and insane life called society

I think the "144000" will be those whose souls have evolved enough to handle their duty.

i disagree with your last premise as it is nonjoining with the body of your post;

you italicized will but if "they" are sealed it does not matter if "they" desire any other mark for any reason, "they" cannot take what is already given them.

Wow, this whole topic reminded me of back in 90, i had to start work at 5;30 every morning for a week. i would go into the lunch room for my morning coffee around 5:00. The night watchman would be in there at that time taking his break. So we sat there talking the first morning, and he asked me if I would be interested in going to his church some Sunday. I told him thanks, but I wasn`t interested at that time. Well, he couldn`t leave it at that, and he told me, that by joining his church, and saving my soul, I would be one of the 144,000 that would get to go to Heaven. I looked at him and said, ok, let me get this right, I get saved, then I become one of the 144,000 that get to go? He said, oh yes, our preacher said with no doubt, anyone who gets saved would be one of the chosen few, and all the rest will go to Hell. I said wow, ok, but I have a question for you and your preacher. I said, is your God a loving God? And of course he yes, and that he as the good shepherd will go to the ends of the Earth to bring all back to his flock. I said everyone? He said, sure of course.

I said, wait, that doesn`t sound right. He asked me what i thought sounded wrong. I said, well, for one thing, if your God is so loving, why on Earth would he send anyone to Hell? I ask him, how that would be called loving? So, he just sat there thinking. Another thing I asked, what happened to the good shepherd that would go to the ends of the Earth to bring ALL back to his flock? Again, he just sat there. I said, further more, if there is only to be 144,000 that is to go, what happens to all the other people who are right with God? He said, the Bible says it will be 144,000. I looked at him and smiled. I said, ok, that means, there are maybe millions of people out there, who were saved by all the churches, that will not get to go then, right? He looked a little mortified by what I said. He looked at me again, and asked me if I had ever read the Bible, and I said yes. He said, you don`t believe in what it says? I said, it`s not that I don`t believe what it says, I just don`t understand, how that line can be used to save souls, if they are already doomed to go to Hell. I said, there has to be well into the millions who have been saved by now, so does that mean that the greatest part of those people will not really go to Heaven? He said wow, I`ll have to talk to my preacher tonight and ask him that. I said cool, let me know what he says.

Well, the next morning, it was the same thing. He said that he talked to his preacher, and told him what I said. I thought, oh boy, here we go, I get slapped up with the good book. He said his preacher got his Bible out, and read through some of the verses that talk about the 144,000. He said he didn`t really have a good answer to that question, but that he would really be interested in talking to me about it, oh, and he wanted to know what kind of Bible you have? I told him, the King James version. I told him, that anytime the preacher wants to talk to me, just set the time and place. I told him, I wasn`t saying that they were wrong, but, most of those things just didn`t jive. A loving God who is like a shepherd, who would send part of his flock to Hell, didn`t sound all to loving to me. I thought he would, like a good shepherd, go to the ends of the Earth to bring ALL of his flock back. Oh yes, and this guy said it would be eternal damnation in Hell for those who weren`t saved now, I told him, that in itself isn`t right. It couldn`t be eternal damnation in Hell, if God was going to bring the WHOLE flock back, that would be leaving a good part of the flock out of going to Heaven then, but, if what you say is true, that would mean that either the 144,000 would not be right, or, there are going to be many, who the church thinks is saved, will not be going then, right?

This time, he looked very mortified. He didn`t know what to say. When the third morning rolled around, I was again ready for more quotes and mis-quotes. This time though, he was a little quiet. I asked him how it went with his preacher. He said not very well. He said his preacher was very flabbergasted, and thought that I was trying to trip the preacher and him up, by saying those things, and he thought that maybe Satan or something evil was working through me. I just shook my head. I asked him if the questions I asked were bad, or if any of the things I said were bad. He said, no, in fact, they made me wonder if some of these things the preacher teaches us is true or not.

Well, to finish this, a couple of months went by, and I didn`t hear a thing from the preacher, but, I did run into the guy from work. He told me that he had asked the preacher if he was going to talk to me, and he told the guy, no, he sounded like he would never repent. So the guy asked him, wouldn`t God go to the ends of the Earth to bring him back then? He said I doubt it, he will be sent to Hell for eternity. The guy asked him, I thought you said God was all loving. How could he be all loving, if he doesn`t do what he said he would do. Needless to say, the preacher went as far as trying to make him look bad before the rest of the congregation that next Sunday, by telling the people some of the questions this guy and I were asking. Believe me, it didn`t go well at all. The guy stuck around till after services, and talked to the preacher. He told the preacher, well, I did figure one thing out. The preacher asked him what it was. He said, for one thing, I noticed that when you got stuck for any answers to those questions, you took it upon yourself, that beings you couldn`t answer them, you would do the next best thing, by making me look bad to the rest of the people, and that maybe I would just take a good old brow beating and let it go at that. He told him, sorry, if you can`t answer legitimate questions about the good book, then your not a very good preacher, and as far as it goes for me..........i`m done. He said he walked out and never went back.

I felt bad for the guy and told him i was sorry if the things I said ruined it for him. He just laughed and said, hey, I don`t think you were wrong at all, I just never thought of those things in that way.

Try asking any preacher, minister or even a reverend these same questions, and see if they can give a good answer to them, and I mean one that doesn`t sound made up, or far fetched in any way. Good luck.


[edit on 16-8-2010 by FiatLux]

Disraeli, another fine thread sir, well thought out and clear.

This 144 000 has intrigued me for a while. The numeralogical 12*12 is very evident, but it doesn't seem a "real" number? I mean, are ONLY 144000 going to reject the AC? I don't think so, there's going to be a LOT more than that executed ... Perhaps these are special people (like the 2 witnesses) who will be "sealed" as represenatatives of God on earth. Most important, even during the AC reign, people can be saved, not those of the mark though. Perhaps these 144000 will be the leaders of that time.

The other thing that i'm thinking ... about the 12x12 .. is that while we acknowledge it as tribes, perhaps not of Isreal directly, but of the earth?
Shem / Ham / Japheth?

And Funkydung: Tongues is a gift of the spirit, but not the only, and not all receive that one. Also, tongues is always accompanied by a translation for the rest.

144,000 saved and the rest literally goes to hell

reply to post by sinewave

As far as I'm concerned, 144,000 is not to be taken as a literal number.

I thought I had made that obvious by treating it as a symbolic number, but from the different replies I've had, it seems that I didn't spell it out clearly enough.

They are not a literal 144,000.
They are not literal Jews.

reply to post by hadriana


As an esoteric Christian mystic I find 'occult' perspectives very interesting, but I don't think my fundamentalist brothers will be capable to seeing it that way. Too much early 'training'.

To everyone, I would just like to advise that they take fundamentalist philosophy with a grain of salt. All fundamentalists know is the Bible, but it takes more than the Bible to have a balanced exegesis. It takes familiarity in comparative religion, comparative mythology, and comparative mysticism. Disraeli lacks that familiarity, and as a result his exegesis is myopic.

my take on the sealing of the 12 thousand from each of the 12 tribes

is that this 'sealing' (or mark of God) happens at the moment that the 'Beast' recieves the mortal head wound and then mimicks the 3rd
day resurrection event.


because after the mortal head wound, the false prophet undertakes 2 important things...
#1: He creates an image that stands-in for the 'Beast',

#2: He then forces all to accept the 'Mark-of-the-Beast'...
or the Name or Number of the Beast


(presumably because the sealed 144,000 have made MSM news
and the false prophet wants to overwhelm them with millions if not billions of followers displaying their own 'Mark-of-the-Beast')

which may well correspond to:

Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

---------------------------------------------------------


these sealed people from the 12 tribes are in fact the [Rev 12:1] twelve 'stars' of the crown on the woman,
who flees to the desert for 1,260 days, (the reign of the Beast...)

remember your other thread trying to explain Rev 12 & the woman?



[edit on 16-8-2010 by St Udio]

Originally posted by Student X
All fundamentalists know is the Bible, but it takes more than the Bible to have a balanced exegesis. It takes familiarity in comparative religion, comparative mythology, and comparative mysticism. Disraeli lacks that familiarity, and as a result his exegesis is myopic.

I have been an atheist in my time. You do not know what reading I have done and not done.

And this is an exercise in Bible interpretation, not comparative religion.


[edit on 16-8-2010 by DISRAELI]

Originally posted by St Udio

my take on the sealing of the 12 thousand from each of the 12 tribes

is that this 'sealing' (or mark of God) happens at the moment that the 'Beast' recieves the mortal head wound and then mimicks the 3rd
day resurrection event.

(presumably because the sealed 144,000 have made MSM news
and the false prophet wants to overwhelm them

On my interpretation, the "sealing" would be
a) a private event (I equated it with the giving of the Holy Spirit), and
b) an event taking place over a period of time. I suggested that it would be happening all the way through the first portion of the reign of the Beast.
Therefore there would be no occasion for it to hit the media, either way.

But of course this goes along with my understanding of the nature and timetable of the "Beast" events, as outlined in a number of other threads.

[edit on 16-8-2010 by DISRAELI]

[edit on 16-8-2010 by DISRAELI]

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by Student X
All fundamentalists know is the Bible, but it takes more than the Bible to have a balanced exegesis. It takes familiarity in comparative religion, comparative mythology, and comparative mysticism. Disraeli lacks that familiarity, and as a result his exegesis is myopic.

I have been an atheist in my time. You do not know what reading I have done and not done.

I have not known many atheists who are experts in comparative mysticism.

And this is an exercise in Bible interpretation, not comparative religion.

Bible interpretation must be informed by all the comparative fields from the very beginning.

I doubt you have the required expertise to do that, and I doubt you have had any personal mystical experience of your own.

I find it hard to trust the interpretations of a non-mystic, and I especially wouldn't trust the interpretations of a non-mystic who thinks that all he needs to know is the Bible.

[edit on 16-8-2010 by Student X]

Originally posted by Student X
I would never trust the interpretations of a non-mystic, and I especially wouldn't trust the interpretations of a non-mystic who thinks that all he needs to know is the Bible.

I take it as an unintentional compliment that you are directing your hostility towards my approach with such dogged determination.

It just shows how valuable my approach must be, if trying to overcome it assumes such importance in your eyes. I feel honoured by that assessment.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by Student X
I would never trust the interpretations of a non-mystic, and I especially wouldn't trust the interpretations of a non-mystic who thinks that all he needs to know is the Bible.

I take it as an unintentional compliment that you are directing your hostility towards my approach with such dogged determination.

It just shows how valuable my approach must be, if trying to overcome it assumes such importance in your eyes. I feel honoured by that assessment.

The vast majority of my posts here and elsewhere are aimed at scientism, atheism, consumerism, pseudo-skepticism, etc. That is where my hostility is directed.

I'm sorry if you feel hostility coming from me. I will try to work of softening my tone. As I said before I consider you a brother, not an enemy like scientism. Would you consent to making a separate thread for you and I to discuss various issues?

[edit on 16-8-2010 by Student X]