Amazing Gold Coin Older Than Christ Found In Israel, Is There A Dragon On The Coin?

I wonder if this the only coin of its kind, or are there others. If there are others, there might be a more complete history available. In Greek mythology, dragons where usually evil, so it seems to be a strange association between the cornucopia and a dragon, which is what it looks like to me. I didn't find any ancient Greek associations between the two.

reply to post by poet1b


There's no "association." It's just a cornucopia. The "dragon" is simply your mind being open to suggestion; if the OP had not said "hey, it's a dragon!" odds are you wouldn't have seen a dragon. if I had posted it and said it looked like the ram's horn they would have blown at the temple, then that's probably what you would have seen - even though that would have made no more sense than it being a dragon, what with it being a Roman coin.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


sooo... were you and "Mod" there 2,200 years ago? dont take anyone's word for anything, keep people's opinions open for revisitation incase links are made in future and "facts" can be proven wrong, Darwin through evolution into the mixer and its been a huge debate since.

Originally posted by AlphaANDOmega
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

sooo... were you and "Mod" there 2,200 years ago?

Well, no, but they issued proclamations along with the coinage. We have a number of them, which gives us insight on what elements went into the design of coins of the time.

This page (www.snible.org... ) gives some information about ancient coinage of that era and includes a tiny bit about symbols and associations. The symbols on the coins were designed to reinforce the portrait of the "ruler as a symbol of whichever deity."

The only association Greeks had with dragons were in a negative (villainous) light ( en.wikipedia.org... ). If a dragon had been intended, it would have been shown as being subdued by Athena. \ Arsinoe is not shown in the aspect of Athena on this coin (she lacks the Phyrigean cap or the helmet) but as Demeter, goddess of fertility. A dragon would have been out of character on a cornucopia since it was not a symbol of good things or fruitful things.

I don't know how much such a coin would be worth, but it has to be at least its weight in gold, obviously. It's a really cool coin, but even old coins sometimes aren't worth that much. I knew a guy who had an ancient Roman coin from the time of Christ. However, because the coins were actually relatively common (tons of them have been found in old fountains where they were tossed for luck) the coin is only worth like fifty bucks. (I think it was silver, not sure anymore) It's really hard to say what this one might be worth, as the rarity will make a huge difference.

Here is some interesting information on the origins of the Cornucopia, as well as other roman coins with depictions of the Cornucopia on them as well.

www.forumancientcoins.com...

I thought this might help with the topic at hand.

It's not a dragon, it is clearly a liopleurodon (with its flippers missing, and the tail also)

Seriously, it's two cornucopias, one on top of the other. This, along with the base/stem, creates the illusion of the dragon (and, of course, the willing to see what may not be there also helps!).

reply to post by Maegnas


a liopleurodon???

Yeah, sure, these ancient dinosaurs were swimming all around the Mediterranean during the time.

Anyone with any observational skills can see the dragon. It looks like a classic dragon typically associated with Brittan. How odd to see it here with a cornucopia.

This coin clearly shows the dragon under completely opposite symbolism than is typical for Greek culture of that time frame.

I would say that this makes the coin very rare, and unusual.

reply to post by Byrd


[*SNIP*]

Clearly we have a dragon associated with a cornucopia, which is very positive.

If these were recent conquerors, then the message could be that the conquerors would also be a cornucopia for the people.



Mod Edit: Off topic comments removed.

[edit on 8/18/2010 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Byrd

 

[*SNIP*]

Clearly we have a dragon associated with a cornucopia, which is very positive.

If these were recent conquerors, then the message could be that the conquerors would also be a cornucopia for the people.

 

Mod Edit: Off topic comments removed.

[edit on 8/18/2010 by AshleyD]

Take a look at the link I provided. On many of the coins you can make out great detail in the cornucopia. If you take a look at the picture of the one at the bottom, the one with a hole where the head was, there is a tail on the cornucopia, and the tail there has a similar appearance to the head of a dragon, not that I believe that is what it is, I was merely looking for an example where this showed on other designs as well. I believe that because that is what I was looking for, I found it, merely by the power of suggestion.

[*SNIP*]



Mod Note: Off topic comments removed.

[edit on 8/18/2010 by AshleyD]

reply to post by poet1b


The most "valuable" skill here is not the observational one, it is the willingness to see something.

so, you find it impossible to be a liopleurodon simply because those reptiles didn't "roam" the area at the time...as opposed to...dragons??

reply to post by Maegnas


I find it impossible to be a liopleurodon simply because there are no ancient Greek tales about liopleurodon, while there are many tales about dragons.

Whether or not dragons physically existed as a living creature does not matter, it is well established that they existed as a myth, and a symbol.

Do you have any examples of liopleurodon mythology or symbolism?

Now there were myths and symbolism about sea monsters, and if you had said sea monsters, then you might have a point, but that would blow the whole credibility of your argument, being that sea monsters are also very negative in Greek culture.

Even so, a cornucopia is not associated with the sea, so dragon seems much more likely.

While weak minded individuals might be open to suggestion, those suggestions also include refusing to see the obvious. I would say this is your problem, along with your fellow deniers.

Originally posted by poet1b

While weak minded individuals might be open to suggestion, those suggestions also include refusing to see the obvious. I would say this is your problem, along with your fellow deniers.

Needs to be said:

The very title of this thread asks for input from members.

Did you not expect opinions?

Yet we see above that you are intolerant of others opinions, even in the face of supporting facts.

So, why did you ask "Is there a dragon on the coin" if you are going to refuse to accept anyone asaying there's not (again, in the face of several depictions of cornucopias that look similar)?

Harte

Originally posted by poet1b
Even so, a cornucopia is not associated with the sea, so dragon seems much more likely.

There are other examples of this coin. One of them (in even better condition) is offered for sale on this coin collection site (scroll down to #17 and click on the tiny picture) :
link

A different one, showing wear:
www.ancientsculpturegallery.com...

Another one (and a truly ugly one of her) is lot #378:
coincircuit.com...

They didn't mint just one; they minted many -- so many that they are available for sale commercially (as well as being in some museums.)

Also, if you read the text, you will see that she is NOT being portrayed as a sea goddess (there really weren't any) although she is being identified with Hera, the wife of Zeus (as it says in the text.)

There are no examples of the Greeks using dragons on their coins and Egypt has no legends of dragons. Crocodiles and snakes, yes (different images used) but not dragons.

[edit on 19-8-2010 by Byrd]

reply to post by Byrd


Good, find, so there are other versions of this coin out there. However, your first link looks even more like a dragon. See the puff of fire or smoke coming out of its mouth.

I can't recall any legends of fire breathing wolves, only dragons, so I don't see how this could be described as anything but a cornucopia image with a dragon fusion.

As we both agree, this is unusual for the Greeks or the Romans to use the dragon symbol as something positive.

reply to post by poet1b



[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/86a18232011f.jpg[/atsimg]

It's not a dragon. Creativity is a good thing, but really?

[edit on 20-8-2010 by Anjaba]

poet1b,

Now there were myths and symbolism about sea monsters, and if you had said sea monsters, then you might have a point, but that would blow the whole credibility of your argument, being that sea monsters are also very negative in Greek culture.

First of all, you did write it as it is, minus the bold and underlining, right?

If so, please explain to what you are referring when you say what you say in the underlined part. what holds very negative association to sea monsters? Dragons? this cannot be, why would anyone in their right mind mint commemorative coins that associate them with something very negative? So, it must be something else. I am asking, what can that be?

ajada,

Oh why did you post that photo? the other one was more worn and one could see what they wanted there, this one is crystal clear.

reply to post by Anjaba


Looks like a dragon to me.

Some people just refuse to see whats in front of them.

This one looks less like a dragon, and you can see how the artist is developing the design.

Ptolemy II Philadelphus 285-246 BC



But here is the coin the thread is about. It seems that the artist or artists are moving towards a dragon looking alternate image.

Queen Arsinoe II Philadelphus, wife of Ptolemy II 191 BC





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Inserting images is such a pain, now they need resized. It is much more effective to download the pictures, blow them up on your computer, and look at them much better, at what ever size you choose. Do that and then you will see what I am talking about.

coincircuit.com...

o.aolcdn.com...

[edit on 20-8-2010 by poet1b]

reply to post by Maegnas


That is the big question put forth by the op at the start of the thread. Why would there be a dragon image with a cornucopia, being that the Greeks and Romans did not use the dragon symbol as something positive.

China,Japan and Britain did use the dragon for positive symbols, but not the Greeks, so this can lead one to speculate. Could there be an association?

Here is a link that does say that the Greeks did associate dragons with wisdom.

www.fairies-tales-art.com...

Some tales end with a dragon being held captive as a greek oracle dispensing great knowledge. Apparently, Greek Dragons such as these had the ability to see the future. If you could tame it, or hold it captive rather than slaying it they would become helpers to the greeks.

Hercules consulted the Oracle of the Temple in Delphi, a dragon, and learned how to kill another Dragon with Seven heads.