Biblical Deaths: How Many Did God Kill? How Many Did Satan Kill?

Originally posted by Gorman91
God is a murderer. And so are you. Every time you buy something, there's a good chance someone somewhere died a little making it in Asia or something.

So don't promote some holier than though BS when in fact there is not one human being on this planet that has not murdered or some how aided in the murder of his fellow man. Every single American has blood on their hands for not doing anything to stop bloody wars.

Now your argument just descended into the gutter. Comparing the direct mass and serial murders of the biblical god with an implied, indirect murder from say, purchasing a towel from Walmart is not even a good try. And until now your entire argument has basically been that it's okay to kill if it's someone you dislike.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by adjensen
You can't just make up facts about Christianity so that it fits what you want to believe and gives your argument relevance.

Ummm, I'm not making things up. I'm trying to discuss a topic which you won't address because you disregard huge chunks of your holy book to focus on one character. To each his own.

Yes you are. You are creating your own Christianity that says I must believe something that I do not. You are saying that I am ducking your accusations because I refuse to become a fundamentalist. And then you gripe that the real issue isn't with your selective reading of the Old Testament, but with my disapproval of your selective reading, even though I have a valid reason for my perspective, and yours is simply "my argument falls apart if I don't do it this way."

You are, to put it in terms that you may understand, trying to disprove the ability to calculate the diameter of a circle by starting with the premise that pi=3.5, and then claiming that anyone who disagrees cannot do so by pointing out the correct value of pi.

You make your case worse with obstinate reply, as you testify to your own bias and indefensible point of view. Give it up, man. Admit that your issue is with fundamentalists and Conservative Jews, not Christians as a whole, and let it go. There is no argument against mainstream Christianity in these old chestnuts.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


A rapist is more then someone I dislike. It's simple common sense that a rapist violates the rights of man.

I am sorry to tell you this, if you did buy that towel and it was made in a sweat shop, you are aiding to murder. And you can try to squirm away from this fact, but it does not change the fact that it is. The inconvenience of paying an extra buck for something made outside a sweat shop in exchange for a child's life.

God's actions are not like that. God killed those who disregarded the rights of man. Now maybe you can argue that that makes him disregard the rights of man, but I would hardly say that. He killed people who were doing bad things. If they were civilized and could be reasoned with, such as Egypt, he put pressure on them rather than extinction.

The contrast between Sodom and Egypt is clear. Sodom was an unreasonable city of rapists and wild men. They would not listen, and so they were killed. Egypt was a mighty civilization that had reason because they were civilized and had many innocent people. Destruction was not favorable. For the rights of the few innocent, he did not murder them all. Just as he said he would. When only evil men chased the Israelites and they were isolated, he destroyed the few evil men.

I fail to see where God looks evil. He, in fact, looks like a reasonable person.

Now you can argue that to commit murder is wrong, but lets see what you would do if you had a gun and there was a rapist after you.

reply to post by Gorman91


Sorry, the capatilazation of the title Lord does not mean God. On occasion he was refered to as the Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Yahweh, YHWH or Lord God. Specified. He is not refered to as a generalized Lord.
If you have PROOF otherwise I would love to read it.

As for the tower of Bable, I fail to see how it fits in here. I also think your understanding of that is like nothing I have ever heard. They wanted to build a tower that would reach up to heaven before they did what they were supposed to do....skatter and repopulate. Their language was made different and therefore they did not build a tower to heaven and they skattered like they were supposed to, to begin with. I dont think it gets any deeper than that, really. If it was for the purpose you stated, I would think it would have happened to begin with. BUT Im not going to assume I know what God ment.

reply to post by mrsdudara


LORD being capitalized seems understandable. it is the most common word in the old testament.

www.thevirtualword.org...

Anyway, the tower of babel seems to be that they were building a capital for the whole of humanity. Like a lighthouse to mark where land is. It would be a beacon of mankind. A capital for the whole of the world to see and travel to. It does not say they were suppose to scatter. It seems that was God's order afterwards. For each that is given is what is received. They wanted to be a single people with a united mindset. We've seen what hoard mentality does in history. In response, God did the complete opposite they wanted, so that they would have to work to reunite and in doing so accept their differences and be a powerful united people, but not afraid of the unknown nor destructive towards it.

God was very big on courtesy. It seems to be one of his peet peves. It was one of the major offenses of Sodom and Gomorrah. God knew that hoards of single minded people without differences would not be courteous to strangers. So if they themselves were strangers to each other, they would need to learn to accept strangers and be courteous to them.

Originally posted by Gorman91

LORD being capitalized seems understandable.

No it doesnt.

it is the most common word in the old testament.

Are you sure it is not thou or thy or and?

Anyway, the tower of babel seems to be that they were building a capital for the whole of humanity. Like a lighthouse to mark where land is. It would be a beacon of mankind. A capital for the whole of the world to see and travel to. It does not say they were suppose to scatter. It seems that was God's order afterwards. For each that is given is what is received. They wanted to be a single people with a united mindset. We've seen what hoard mentality does in history. In response, God did the complete opposite they wanted, so that they would have to work to reunite and in doing so accept their differences and be a powerful united people, but not afraid of the unknown nor destructive towards it.

God was very big on courtesy. It seems to be one of his peet peves. It was one of the major offenses of Sodom and Gomorrah. God knew that hoards of single minded people without differences would not be courteous to strangers. So if they themselves were strangers to each other, they would need to learn to accept strangers and be courteous to them.

I have not seen someone try to add that much of their opinions and words to a bible verse in a long time. Isnt there a warning at the end of the book about that?

Edit to add.....That is a neat pic but you dont expect me to see that as proof do you?

[edit on 17-8-2010 by mrsdudara]

All I am saying, is stop assuming. People assume many places in the bible to mean something other than it really does. Same goes for the names. Sort through what God did, and what people blamed on the Lord.

If you are going to go compairing God to Satan, make sure you are placing blame on the right entity.

Was God scary strict? Yep. Not going to even try to convince myself otherwise. Anyone who claims he is a loving forgiving of everyone has only read what they wanted to read.

Just all the ones that arise from the act of murder.

Murder's a legal term. Killing is a fact.

One requirement for a killing to be a murder is that the perp is a human being. A bullmoose can kill you, but he can't murder you.

Ditto, God the Father.

So, what moral principle, binding on God, has God violated by virute of having done any or all of the killings in your OP?

Let's see...

I don't see that any of the killings were done in the process of self-defense which is what I would argue to likely be the only justifiable circumstance.

Really? You would argue it? Do you or don't you? Suppose you did:

That's not human law binding on humans. There are all sorts of intentional killings that aren't self-defence but are legally permissible.

For example, I can kill to prevent the commission of a felony where no other means is practical. Rape is a felony, for instance. We seem to agree rape is immoral.

Can I kill a rapist, victimizing someone else, in flagrante? I think I can, both legally amd morally.

In many jurisdictions, I can kill someone who breaks into my dwelling at night. Or my neighbor's dwelling.

The housebreaker whom I kill may be an unarmed. A would-be property criminal. No self-defence. But it's still OK under human law in many places. I have no moral problem with it, either.

So, I guess there's the solution. If God is held to some absolutist morality that you like, but which no jurisdiction imposes on human beings, then he's a bad guy.

But who else thinks rapists and housebreakers get a pass? Probably the same people who put errant moose on trial for murder.

Originally posted by adjensen
Admit that your issue is with fundamentalists and Conservative Jews, not Christians as a whole, and let it go. There is no argument against mainstream Christianity in these old chestnuts.

Gosh you take things personally. I don't have any issue with any of those stereotypes. I have an issue with the biblical god committing mass and serial murder. Hopefully you'll understand this once and for all. It's not about you or me or any of those religious types you listed. It's about god murdering people. You choose to ignore it. Fine. I'd like to keep it on topic, please. Thank you.

reply to post by Gorman91


Sorry, but I don't agree with any of your reasoning. But then you've already claimed that you "don't believe in morals". I suspect it all goes wrong from that point on.

Originally posted by eight bits A bullmoose can kill you, but he can't murder you.

Ditto, God the Father.

I disagree.

So, I guess there's the solution. If God is held to some absolutist morality that you like, but which no jurisdiction imposes on human beings, then he's a bad guy.

Basically, yes. Capricious, unnecessary mass and serial murder is immoral and unjustified.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Look...the entity referring to itself as god in biblical writings was a sick and twisted evil git, get used to it.

The hypocrite had the nerve to call this Satan character evil...what a hoot!

Murdered for picking up sticks?! Kids slaughtered for poking fun at some tart with alapica?

And to think of all the cretins of this world that have been tricked into worshiping this psychopathic alien?

Humanity really is Pathetic with a capital P.

ETA...i'm waiting for retribution from upstairs...still waiting...no lightening bolts? No floods? No lions scratching at the door...ah well.



[edit on 17/8/2010 by spikey]

[edit on 17/8/2010 by spikey]

Originally posted by spikey
And to think of all the cretins of this world that have been tricked into worshiping this psychopathic alien?

Humanity really is Pathetic with a capital P.

And that's what we're seeing come out of this thread. People justify it, excuse it, ignore it, claim it inaccurate, twist it into meaning something other than what it is, etc. etc. etc. "Pathetic" was a quite accurate descriptor.

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


You did not answer the question. You're about to be raped. You have a gun. Do you shoot or do you let them do what they want to do?

Morals are just the limits you put on yourself based on your own views. They cannot be forced onto others just as much as a culture or way of life cannot be forced onto others. Morals are personal guidances. I need no personal guidances. Only Christ. So I do not have morals nor believe in these self created gods to fear from.


reply to post by mrsdudara


It seems to me that God does things to humans to teach them a lesson. Pretty much the whole old testament can be said to be an example of why mankind was damned and why they need Christ. Failure after failure after failure to follow orders and understand God's word. Eventually God just sends down the exemplar that is Christ to show them in plain obviousness what is the way in understandable human terms because Christ was God made man.

Logically, the only reason to destroy a people that were uniting to build something glorious was to teach them a lesson. What is the lesson to be learned? Do not build high? Really? Scatter far and wide? God does tend to not like cities, so it is possible. But still. To scatter far and wide is in contrast to the need to create fellowship with Christ together as a community. So I'm not so sure. The only logical reason to divide men who are united is to give them divisions to work out so that they are united, but accepting of each other. This prevents genocide and slaughter. Christ says he came to bring the sword, but that's not the sword of war, it is the sword that divides the saved and unsaved, like in the garden of Eden. To say such things but not mean violence can only mean that differences must be accepted and that you can't save everyone, but you should not kill them for being different.

Perhaps it is opinion. But it makes sense with the overall picture.

[edit on 17-8-2010 by Gorman91]

[edit on 17-8-2010 by Gorman91]

[edit on 17-8-2010 by Gorman91]

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Seriously though..i was venting really.

I'm so fed up to the back teeth with all the religious rubbish peddled by the control freaks of this world.

IF (and it's a big IF as far as i'm concerned) this nasty bit of work ever really existed, it was probably a hostile alien that fed off the misery and slaughter of humanity in antiquity.

It's either long dead, or moved off to terrorize another planet of hapless beings that are too primitive to fight back with any effect.

The fully human control freaks took up where it left off as far as i'm concerned and have been propagating the myth and fear mongering in it's name ever since, for their own selfish reasons.

It just seriously disheartens me how monumentally gullible the human race is.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by traditionaldrummer

 

You did not answer the question. You're about to be raped. You have a gun. Do you shoot or do you let them do what they want to do?

I have previously answered that I don't have any particular problem with killing in self defense. However, there is no apparent case of the biblical god killing because he was about to be raped, nor could any of them be justified as self defense. This is where I find problems...

Originally posted by spikey
IF (and it's a big IF as far as i'm concerned) this nasty bit of work ever really existed, it was probably a hostile alien that fed off the misery and slaughter of humanity in antiquity.

It seems pretty clear to me that such a being never existed and is simply a fable. But people genuinely believe it and have no problem worshipping a vindictive killing machine, even excusing its mass murders. "Pathetic" was dead-on accurate.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by adjensen
Admit that your issue is with fundamentalists and Conservative Jews, not Christians as a whole, and let it go. There is no argument against mainstream Christianity in these old chestnuts.

Gosh you take things personally. I don't have any issue with any of those stereotypes. I have an issue with the biblical god committing mass and serial murder. Hopefully you'll understand this once and for all. It's not about you or me or any of those religious types you listed. It's about god murdering people. You choose to ignore it. Fine. I'd like to keep it on topic, please. Thank you.

Stereotypes? You think a Conservative Jew is a stereotype? That the belief of fundamentalism is a stereotype? What on Earth are you talking about? Those are the beliefs that lead one to the assumption of inerrancy in the Bible, they aren't stereotypes, and they're the only ones you can make any sort of case with.

Keeping it on topic, though:

Me: How many people did God murder, TD?
TD: Zero. How many does the OT prove that he murdered?
Me: Zero. Thanks for the informative thread!

reply to post by traditionaldrummer


Well cheers for that, but you do know you aren't going to get a rational debate about this subject from a large % of the membership here, don't you mate!

It beats me why otherwise intelligent and rational people believe this rubbish...it has done pretty much the whole of my life, at least for as long as i can remember anyway.

Perhaps Dawkins was right when he postulated that a large % of humanity is saddled with a 'belief gene'..i guess that makes the likes of you and me mutants, because i certainly don't have it, and by the looks of it, neither do you.

Maybe not mutants..perhaps more highly evolved.

That's going to set the cats among the pigeons!

Originally posted by adjensen
Keeping it on topic, though:

Me: How many people did God murder, TD?
TD: Zero. How many does the OT prove that he murdered?
Me: Zero. Thanks for the informative thread!

Oops, missed one, sorry!

Me: How many people did God murder, TD?
TD: Zero. How many does the OT prove that he murdered?
Me: Zero. Thanks for the informative thread!
Random Atheist: Way to show that gullible fool, TD! Star and Flag for you!