Struggling to find perspective on Police.

So, over the duration of my time here on ATS I have often come across postings and threads which deal with the topics of "police state" or Police and their dealings with the public...
Arguments tend to range widely across the board for and against,
with the most prominent theme tending towards police generally operating out of line and consistently failing the public in their mission statement to 'serve and protect'...

Personally I have been cynical in my approach to Police behaviour but with no personal experience of my own I have been to reluctant to generalize or leap on either bandwagon.

However, this weekend I had the pleasure of running into - shall we say- the more thuggish side of Local Law enforcement.

Attending a football match Sydney Fc vs Melb Saturday night - a group of my mates and their Gf's headed into the city for a pretty tame evening.
Nobody was really drinking - all the boys being on generally their best seeing as the girls had come along
(and it's usually hard enough for my mates to get let off their leashes on a Saturday night let alone into the city for a soccer game lol...)

so we'd all had a couple of beers on the way in and because alcohol is so expensive at the venue lets face it - drinking was minimal...
I'd also like to point out that the crowd in general was fairly well behaved and there was a large Police presence all through the Stadium.

It was cold and a disappointing game all up so we all agreed to head straight home with the crowd afterwards.
Heading through the main park guys all over the place were heading off to how do you say - water the trees?
So one of my buddies heads into the bushes as we were walking past, and from the main footpath 4 policeman swiftly cut through the crowd and follow him into the bushes and shine the torches straight onto him and ask him to put his hands behind his head.
So he sort of jokingly says 'no worries guys, just let me do up my pants' at which point and correct me if I'm wrong in seeing this as unreasonable two police grapple him from behind together and one of them lands on his back and handcuffs him and holds him up from the ground with the cuffs and a knee in his lower back!
Obviously we all noticed and my mates girlfriend heads over to ask what's going on and one of the two remaining officers (now she wasnt running or anything at this point she's a real goody twoshoes and a sweetheart if ever I met one)
he grabs her forearms and slams her back into a tree! yelling at her to keep back!

Now, at this point the officer hanging back while this is happening is now surrounded by my friends and I and we are asking him what our mate did wrong and what is going to happen?
And he says that you cant pee in a public area - obviously but he can only fine the person...
so I asked him if they can only issue a fine for this wrong doing why is it necessary to handcuff and manhandle to such a degree?
At this he refuses to answer any questions and they haul our mate off to the vehicle and head down to copshop.
We are left without any idea exactly where they've headed and so we start looking for the local police station to find our friend.
Once we get there we demand to speak to someone in real authority in the situation and she admits to our face that it was an extreme and unnecessary action...
so we ask who can we turn to about this harrasment?
and she replies 'unable' to do anything...
so my mates brother says - well can we lodge a complaint? and we'd like the badge number of the cops involved and get this! She states she actually doesn't know who they were but even if she did she wouldn't give us either their names or badge id's!

well, come on! surely when they've hauled our buddy in they've had to have some sort of paperwork - some sort of authorized lodgement of a ticket or something, right?
But no... he's been dumped at this station and held without what seems to be relevant cause!
Am I wrong?

So here we are thinking amongst ourselves how are we to know if they were even real police - she asks us were they wearing police uniforms?
Yes, but the behaviour seemed so out of character for the police attending this venue what were we to think?
I mean... there were quite a few and most of them were pretty friendly, one of our pals had even been chatting to a couple of them during the game when he walked down to the dividers to get a closer look!

Anways, I just want to say that we were not trouble making at all - and the whole experience was harrowing for everyone involved - girls were crying, boys were trying to keep it together so as not to make things worse but something just felt very off about the whole situation and none of us can seem to put a finger on it...

Can anyone offer any insight into perhaps the true motives of the police?
Is this is a simple case of misunderstanding?
Is this an example of where we are headed?
I want to know my rights and I don't want to feel intimidated by my own people...
What is going on?

If you've read this through and I apologize for the long winded story please offer your thoughts.

Wag.

In America, he would be registered as a sex offender and his life would be ruined.

reply to post by wagtail


Dear wagtail

The police are a nice big club and they have the power to make up most anything they like. In the UK most are free masons.

Next time carry a video but stand back with it or that will go too.

It is like this anyone who wants the admittedly terrible job of police officer should never be allowed to hole that position, never. Why? Because they want it for the wrong reason.

The same exactly goes for government officials. Double.

reply to post by AnonymousMoose


What! What do you mean?
How does that happen? Do you have any examples?
Are you saying that the 'System' in America is unbalanced?

Maybe I should count myself lucky, is that what you mean?
However, this is not a cop-bashing thread, I have known some who were good people but only as neighbours etc...

This particular situation I am lacking knowledge.

Wag.

reply to post by MAC269


It's interesting you mention the video...
The next morning we all met for breakfast and to discuss the night's events and whether we should pursue some sort of 'justice'...
and laughingly mentioned that we all had camera phone's so why did we not film the event...
the general consensus in our group was it would only antagonise - and they didn't seem likely to let us do any such thing and walk away with it!

What is the Mason connection you refer to?

Thanks,
Wag.

I must say that as a police officer, this behavior on the part of the officers was not right... There must be a body that takes complaints in Australia. I'm sure you can find it on the internet...

I know that here in Quebec, we are liable under 6 separate laws, and can be found guilty and punished under each one at the same time, no double jeopardy rule applies to us.

If you want, U2U me your local police force name, the area or anything that I can use to find out about them, and I can get back to you on how to lodge a complaint, and any other recourse you may have available to you there...

If your friend was fined, ticketed, or charged, the officer's name and badge # will be on the paperwork. If not, just contest the fine and go to court, you'll find it out that way.

It angers me when this happens because then I also look bad for the actions of others...

Tell your mate to hang in there.

Magnum

ETC : Edit to correct... I mistakenly thought OP is in UK not Australia... Sorry!

[edit on 10/8/9 by Magnum007]

reply to post by Magnum007


Thank you,
it's interesting how these things vary across countries, cultures etc...

In terms of pursuing some sort vengeance - that's really not something we are interested in...
We felt that perhaps we would have liked to report these particular police but as I said, the Superior officer of this station either couldn't or wouldn't allow us to access details pertaining to those individual cops.

I think what bothered us the most - wasn't the less than exemplary actions of the police - but the struggle we had to find anyone who was accountable or even willing to apologize for what seemed like a basically very unfair treatment.

In terms of what my mate did wrong - we would of course expect a fine for that - you run the risk of getting caught every time you walk home from a pub and do the same thing! Haha! But we don't know if he will be fined as yet...

I just don't feel safe relying on cops when they seem inclined to take such extreme actions for trivial misdemeanors...? And, get away with it!?

Wag

reply to post by wagtail


Dear wagtail

Well the masons is just another big club them and the rest of us. They all back each other up. It is them and you, and you do not have to be criminally minded.

All that has to happen is you disagree with the jumped up state backed buffoons that they call police.

Next time they stop you in your car make a point of asking for and writing down their number. Sure as hell that will piss them off.

I'm truly sorry for the experience you and your buddies were put through. I know that sometimes things go the wrong way and people tend to try to cover it up... It's just less acceptable for a police officer to do it...

I have a friend who was fined for walking home drunk. When he told the officers that they seem to rather he drive back drunk there was no answer... Some people, some officers just have no common sense...

I just hope that this experience doesn't leave a bitter taste in your mouth for any officers you encounter in the future, for good or bad reasons...

I understand that you may not want to get "vengence" but I still enclosed some resources for you to look at, should you or your friend change minds or just to be informed...

Once again, I'm sorry for what happened to you and your friends... Please remember that we are not all evil and that there are good guys and gals out there doing it right...

Magnum

________________________________________________
www.afp.gov.au...
Australian Federal police complaint procedure...

www.complaintline.com.au...
Complaint line to call (scroll down to NSW)

www.ombo.nsw.gov.au...
Scroll down to the 'Police' Headline

www.nswccl.org.au...
A rights page with information on your rights

Hope this helps!!

reply to post by MAC269


Oh, okay , thanks for expanding a little on that viewpoint.
I hadn't heard of that connection before so that's very interesting.
I'm not sure that if I was in that sort of position though, that I would want to do anything to inflame the whole situation but it's a funny suggestion!
Cheers,
Wag.

reply to post by Magnum007


Wow, Magnum,
that is really more than I could've hoped for!
Many thanks, I'm very grateful for you providing those resources...
is it okay if I forward this information to my friend?

And, as I mentioned earlier in my original post, this is not a thread intended to bash law keepers...
however, my limited experience has been negative and the horror stories keep on comin' and comin'...
this was just something that occurred to me personally so I can relate it without feeling like a fraud!
I refrain from making personal judgements based on generalisations as much as humanly possible...
but I will be hesitant in approaching police in future.

Wag

reply to post by wagtail


Of course you can send the sources over to your friend! That's why I posted them!

As far as being afraid to approach the police, I think it would be better than being approached by one... lol... Quite honestly, you would be surprised by the reaction of an officer if you chat one up... I actually like when people come to ask questions, or just to talk, when I am not busy of course!

I like this because it exposes me to different types of people and I get to learn a lot, also I can teach people things they never knew about anything I can explain, including policing. I'm sure if you find something interesting to talk about with a police officer, they would be glad to talk to you.

Sometimes acts of kindness can go a long way and can make things much more pleasurable. Can you imagine what kind of a storythe guy can tell his wife when he gets home? About the cool people he met during his shift. Talking about nothing and everything helping the day pass just that little bit faster, learning new things...

I like it. But that's just me...

Peace mate!

Magnum

Every time the police go out to do their job, they put their lives in danger. Your friend could have been fiddling with his zipper, or maybe he could have been pulling out a pistol. His female friend could have been running to help out, or maybe she had a knife. They may have, in your eyes, taken things a little to far, but I'm sure they were probably just trying to do their jobs and make sure that they make it home to their families that night.

Sometimes, it has to be hard for them. They are, in essence, fighting a guerrilla war. Anyone could end up being an "enemy soldier".

As for the cops protecting their own, is that so hard to understand? If someone was punching your mom, wouldn't you rush to her aid?

I'm not a police officer, but it makes sense to me if I look at it this way.

reply to post by Mayson


Yes, this is absolutely true Mayson...

I can imagine it's one of the most difficult jobs on the planet in many ways.
I do have friends and acquaintances who are police and of course there is much concern for their safety - not to mention the stories they tell of close shaves and awful encounters with crazy people!

But in this isolated case, it just wasn't like that.
(I don't know how to present the context but it really wasn't like that, we are just a nice looking bunch of young adults heading home from a football game... and I don't know - it may sound naive but this Aussie crowd doesn't generally pack heat if you know what i mean?).

Anyway, I guess they walk a fine line between over-reacting and protecting the public.

Wag.

Well, just as a quick follow up
- we've heard nothing back from the police as such, seems there will be no fines etc...
everybody dropped the issue like a hot potato so all's well that ends well I suppose.
Thanks again,
Wag.

Being a cop is definitely one of the toughest jobs on the planet, but this is just pure thuggery and power tripping- www.youtube.com...

reply to post by ericsnow


Unfortunately I cannot access youtube on here, but thank you for your input...
Hopefully someone will comment on your posting and enlighten me a little!