Scientific Evidence for DNA spontanously forming from only sand and water in sterile environment

reply to post by Copernicus


It does possibly demonstrate the ability of life to get a foothold and survive where it can, but during the last 10 - 20 years, we are discovering life in places that science had absolutely no idea could or even should exist and in many cases vehemently argued against the possibility of life being able to exist in such places.

There are organisms that can survive super hot temperatures, they can survive the cold vacuum of space, they can survive in strong acid or in strong alkali, they can survive deep inside rocks, with zero access to O2 or H2O, they survive at impossible pressures, they survive the intense sterilizing radiation of nuclear reactors ...in short, life can survive literally anywhere.

This is probably an example of some more of these extremophiles.

reply to post by spikey


Can you provide more information about organisms surviving exposure to space? I haven't seen anything about that.

reply to post by Phage


I think tardigrades have been exposed to 'space' for a couple of weeks and went on to reproduce normally.

The tough little beggars survive being boiled and have a resistance to radiation over 3 orders of magnitude greater than any other animal.


[edit on 8/8/2010 by LightFantastic]

reply to post by Phage


Hi Phage, I remember reading that lichen can survive or theoretically survive in space.

I think...

reply to post by LightFantastic


True, they are the only known animals known to survive in space. Could these things be tardigrades?

On second thought, tardigrades would not have survived the beach sand getting heated to white-hot luminescence.

Tardigrades are polyextremophiles and are able to survive in extreme environments that would kill almost any other animal. Some can survive temperatures of -273°C (-460 °F), close to absolute zero,[5] temperatures as high as 151 °C (303 °F), 1,000 times more radiation than other animals,[6] and almost a decade without water.[7] In September 2007, tardigrades were taken into low Earth orbit on the FOTON-M3 mission and for 10 days were exposed to the vacuum of space. After they were returned to Earth, it was discovered that many of them survived and laid eggs that hatched normally, making these the only animals known to be able to survive the vacuum of space.

The most convenient place to find tardigrades is on lichens and mosses. Other environments are dunes, beaches, soil, and marine or freshwater sediments, where they may occur quite frequently (up to 25,000 animals per litre).

Source: Wikipedia


[edit on 8-8-2010 by Copernicus]

That's an incorrect view of quantum mechanics. The viewer effects a reaction because the viewer's photons from his eyes hit things and effect them. Consciousness does not effect anything. It is the act of firing a photon at something to see it which causes observation to effect the reaction. You could literally be a brain dead vegetable. If you shoot a photon at it, it will change the outcome.

reply to post by Gorman91


I´m sorry, but it is your view that is conpletely off.

Photons aren´t sent from our eyes, they bounce of objects and travel towards our eyes, and it has nothing to do with effecting particles.

In Quantum experiments, it sure seems that consciousness is affecting the particle, and experiments like the Quantum Eraser exp. show that it is not the physical act of observing, with a sensor, that is affecting a particle, but wether or not the info of the observation reaches the brain of the experimenter.

I think you need to do some more reading.

reply to post by Copernicus


Thanks for the links, it is hard for me to do the more complex stuff on my phone. My memory wasnt too far off luckily.

Tardigrades are pretty complex creatures that have evolved, in this experiment i would suspect the water contained thermophilus spores which survived the autoclave. Bacteria and spores often survive them.

reply to post by LightFantastic

Thanks,don't know how I missed that.

While the critters that were only exposed to vacuum survived (they're good at dehydration), those exposed to the radiation didn't fare as well.

About 12 percent of the animals exposed to ultraviolet radiation revived after being put back in water, a puzzling find since researchers presume the sterilizing rays broke down the tardigrades' DNA.

"This type of radiation cuts the DNA strand effectively in most organisms," Jönsson told Discovery News.

Further tests are needed to determine if indeed the animals' genetic material was indeed damaged and what sort of mechanisms tardigrades have to make such unprecedented repairs.

dsc.discovery.com...

Amazing.

Originally posted by Copernicus

Originally posted by Byrd
2. These experiments HAVE been done before (rigorously and frequently) by many others and life doesn't form.

5. If we try to replicate the experiment (and make sure everything is sterile including the tube and the sand and water really ARE sterilized), we can run it many millions of times and no DNA will result.

Please provide sources for this information. I hope you understand that lots of people here tend to claim things without backing it up.

Personally I have had difficulties locating further information about similar experiments.

What you're looking for is "spontaneous generation" and it's been disproven for centuries:
www.accessexcellence.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

biology.clc.uc.edu...

"Beach sand", as many have pointed out, isn't pure silicon dioxide. It's full of many things, including the shells of plankton (which seem to be one of the photos shown).

If this were really true, microfiltered bottled water would have life crawling in it after a few weeks on the shelf. So would distilled water. Canned food would not be safe -- things in it would have mutated into... well, who knows what after a few months.

If it were true, scientists and patent seekers would be battling each other over lifeforms and processes involving things like putting sterilized Coca-cola and salt in test tubes and generating life or the different types of life/DNA generated with one milligram of sand versus a milligram of sand plus iodine and left for three weeks instead of one.

However, spontaneous generation doesn't work. Those are nice pictures of what seem to be microscopic beach detritus, but you can go down to the beach, get some sand, and wash the same stuff out of it to examine under the microscope. No waiting needed.

reply to post by Point of No Return


Forgive me, photons do bounce out. But they still shoot out from out eyes when bouncing back.

I am afraid there is no physical evidence, however, for consciousness effecting anything. The eraser which you speak of has to do with the particles themselves, interacting with themselves. It has no involvement from a conscious observer. If a robot was programmed to do it, the results would be the same.

When you observe something, a photon is necessary. This photon affects observed results because it is interacting.

Currently, some people are suggesting using something that does not affect the item in particular, and then convert it back to a format we can read.

Rest assured, the fact that you have a brain has no correlation to the experiment's results.

All the reading you need is right here.

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 8-8-2010 by Gorman91]

This topic brings into question the condition we know as "sterile." When it comes to scientific experiments, especially those looking for life, how can one know that their experiement is sterile? Certainly these conditions should have sterilized the environment.

Originally posted by jjjtir
How can you say Ignacio Enrique Ochoa Pacheco is not a neurobiologist?

Have you not seen his 1989 thesis from the Venezuelan Universidad de Los Andes which is at the last page 1 post?

He didn't get his degree from a fake university, but at a credentialed, certified and accredited university in Venezuela.

Titled as "Reconstrucción in vitro de la corteza motora de ratón".

Record at the university's cataloging system.
platon.serbi.ula.ve/librum/librum_ula/ver.php?ndoc=198872

That's a thesis for a degree in neurobiology written by him in 1988, yes. What I don't see is any supporting evidence that he's done any work as a neurobiologist since then.

I am willing to entertain the idea that I'm quite wrong here, but my search skills only turned up work in 1988-1989.

I see a "Facebook" type page for him at Sonico and one on Facebook but no professional links showing that he's a professor. I don't see him as a current professor at any Venezuelan university (again, I can be way wrong here so do feel free to correct me.) Other than that one paper and a second one where he was not the primary author there is no evidence of his doing research. There does not seem to be any hospital who has him on their staff.

I see a paper by him (in association with the Orgone institute) where he describes himself as a neurobiologist and his email is at "scientist.com" (a nonexistent email at this time.)

The procedures he describes in his paper doesn't remove things that were in the ocean sand... in fact, what it does is separate them from the pure sand and allows the lighter ones to form at the top. His selection of site for the sand is curious because if he wanted to test out water and sand, he could get very pure grades of sand at any beach or any home improvement or gardening center. Yes, I read why he was getting it from the mountain... an interesting diversion because it would also have a high level of organic material that can survive extreme conditions.

If you look at the last picture on this page, you will see evaporated brine (salt water) which is producing rounded structures like one of the pictures (001090) he was showing as evidence:
krystalwebmatrix.com...

I see no evidence that he looked for the same material in the unsterilized (control) tubes or any comparison between the material from each.

Finally, if his degree is in neurobiology, where is the proof that he knows anything about geology or microorganisms? I've got a bunch of degrees, but if I start blabbing on about my experiments with microscopic specimens or mathematical tensors or retranslations of cuneiform texts or anything other than my experiments in biology/anthropology/computer science/information science then you have every right to be skeptical and ask where's the evidence that I know what I'm blathering about and who else is on my team with appropriate degrees and skills in the field where I'm doing scientific research.

The numbering on the photos (which appear genuine) is also rather interesting. The numbers aren't sequential and they imply that there's at least 1100 photos. I find that odd.

#001006 appears to show pollen similar to this (this plant isn't native to Venezuela. I suspect any botanist who studies pollens in Venezuela can identify the "life form" in a heartbeat.)
science.nasa.gov...

I'd bet you a chocolate bar that any scientist who regularly works with electron microscopy can identify the items.

Originally posted by Jim Scott
This topic brings into question the condition we know as "sterile." When it comes to scientific experiments, especially those looking for life, how can one know that their experiement is sterile? Certainly these conditions should have sterilized the environment.

I believe that they did (if done as they said they did.) If so, that's how things are autoclaved, so it should be sterile.

HOWEVER... autoclaving/sterilization doesn't destroy the "bodies" of the things that were there. If you have pollen spores in something and you autoclave it, the dead "bodies" of the spores will be there (some may survive, now that I think of it). They won't have disappeared. If you sterilize beach sand, all the skeletons of the diatoms will still be there. Other organic material will be there including the "bodies" of the dead bacteria that were killed in the process.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by spikey

 

Can you provide more information about organisms surviving exposure to space? I haven't seen anything about that.

Here's a new scientist article regarding lichen surviving unprotected in space for 15 days on a Soyuz rocket. I'm not sure if this is what spikey was referring to.
New Scientist - Lichen in Space
The same experiment is also detailed on the European Space Agency website here
You can pay for access to a paper on the research
here

[edit on 8-8-2010 by Arkady]

[edit on 8-8-2010 by Arkady]

[edit on 8-8-2010 by Arkady]

reply to post by Arkady

Another one. Thank you.

Originally posted by Byrd

The numbering on the photos (which appear genuine) is also rather interesting. The numbers aren't sequential and they imply that there's at least 1100 photos. I find that odd.

#001006 appears to show pollen similar to this (this plant isn't native to Venezuela. I suspect any botanist who studies pollens in Venezuela can identify the "life form" in a heartbeat.)
science.nasa.gov...

I'd bet you a chocolate bar that any scientist who regularly works with electron microscopy can identify the items.

Oooh, that pollen on the link (looking like a spikey football) is daisy (-type) pollen (commonly referred to as 'punk pollen' and is frighteningly common.

I also noticed a diatom in the pictures, and possibly a coccolith.

So he only used distilled water, not ultrapure, which would be more than necessary for such an experiment.

I'll try top find something about a fella I know who is using low temperature and pressure to see 'what comes' out of certain rocks.

Certainly, it would appear on the surface that sand and water alone are not sufficient and there was something amiss in his experiments.

Originally posted by Byrd
4. The chemical components in DNA aren't to be found in sand (silicon dioxide), though some of them are found in water.

Whilst this is true the only thing missing from actual life here is Nitrogen.

Carbon, oxygen and hydrogen are all present in a mixture of sand and water (Due to carbon's amazing ability to be abundant almost everywhere).

I'm still of the mindset that the scientist in the OP is a dud - but I'm not discounting that life can happen easy enough given enough of a H, C, O, N mix and the right conditions.

Also - I was just poking fun at the OP for using science to prove their point here when they discount it when it doesn't fit their outlook elsewhere - woe is me!

-m0r

reply to post by Phage


I think the experiment described in the OP is deeply flawed and I'm not at all convinced of the supposed importance of the results but the ability of some extremophiles, like the Rhizocarpon geographicum, to survive in Space is in my opinion extremely exciting and bodes well for projects like terraforming mars and even Luna one day.

Tenuously related:

www.scien... cedirect.com.ezproxy.canterbury.ac.nz/science?_ob=MImg&_imagekey=B6WGF-4M936RV-6-9&_cdi=6821&_user=103118&_pii=S001910350600337X&_orig=browse&_coverDa te=02%2F28%2F2007&_sk=998139997&view=c&wchp=dGLbVzz-zSkzS&md5=2dd4fadd14da38f84fb93cae6d05003a&ie=/sdarticle.pdf

www.sciencedirect.com.ezproxy.canterbury.ac.nz... i=6821&_pubType=J&_acct=C000007858&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=103118&md5=086b28930f42a7dff6c9d27f17b6bbe5&jchunk=190#190

Since I am at an Institution which has paid access to these journals, I am unsure if others can access them.
If you can, the link above is interesting, otherwise:

Serpentinization and the inorganic synthesis of H2 in planetary surfaces


The near-surface inorganic synthesis of molecular hydrogen (H2) is a fundamental process relevant to the origins and to the sustenance of early life on Earth and potentially other planets. Hydrogen production through the decomposition of water is thought to be a principal reaction that occurs during hydrothermal alteration of olivine, an iron–magnesium silicate abundant near planetary surfaces. We demonstrate that copious amounts of H2 are produced only when the olivine undergoing alteration (serpentinization) contains 1 to 50 mol% iron over a variety of planetary surface P–T conditions. This suggests that extrasolar Earth-like planets that are hosted by a star with iron contents up to two times the solar value could support life provided they are hydrothermally active and fall within the habitable zone around the star.

Permission also granted by the lead author to quote here.

He is conducting interesting experiments on serpentinisation including its potential relationship to the origin of life.
His experiments seem to be more scientifically rigid and involve clean labs and techniques.


Oh, and I've just found this: lichens

Survival of lichens and bacteria exposed to outer space conditions – Results of the Lithopanspermia experiments ....In the space experiments Lithopanspermia, experimental support was provided to the likelihood of the lithopanspermia concept that considers a viable transport of microorganisms between the terrestrial planets by means of meteorites. The rock colonising lichens Rhizocarpon geographicum and Xanthoria elegans, the vagrant lichen Aspicilia fruticulosa, and endolithic and endoevaporitic communities of cyanobacteria and bacteria with their natural rock substrate were exposed to space for 10 days onboard the Biopan facility of the European Space Agency (ESA). Biopan was closed during launch and re-entry. In addition, in the Stone facility, one sample of R. geographicum on its natural granitic substrate was attached at the outer surface of the re-entry capsule close to the stagnation point, only protected by a thin cover of glass textolite. Post-flight analysis, which included determination of the photosynthetic activity, LIVE/DEAD staining, and germination capacity of the ascospores, demonstrated that all three lichen were quite resistant to outer space conditions, which include the full spectrum of solar extraterrestrial electromagnetic radiation or selected wavelength ranges. This high resistance of the lichens to space appears to be due to their symbiotic nature and protection by their upper pigmented layer, the cortex. In contrast, the rock- or halite-inhabiting bacteria were severely damaged by the same exposure. After atmospheric re-entry, the granite of the Stone sample was transformed into a glassy, nearly homogenous material, with several friction striae. None of the lichen cells survived this re-entry process. The data suggest that lichens are suitable candidates for testing the concept of lithopanspermia, because they are extremely resistant to the harsh environment of outer space. The more critical event is the atmospheric re-entry after being captured by a planet. Experiments simulating the re-entry process of a microbe-carrying meteoroid did not show any survivors.

Apologies if the formatting is bung and the links don't give you access...hence the quotes...

reply to post by Phage


Yes tardigrades are amazing and i suspect they havent yet had the need to adapt to high UV levels and are surviving this sort of exposure using their general repair mechanisms.