Calling all Debunkers, and anyone who thinks Holocaust Denial is offensive, debunk this!

So I love about the holocaust myth that Hitler is this supreme dictator, yet it is Himmler and Dr. Mengele that are doing all the revisions to stack more jews into bunkers, and doing experiments which could not possibly have been ordered verbally. And of course the fact is Hitler called Himmler a traitor for trying to make a peace deal, so why would Himmler do this if he was more racist and brutal than evn Hitler? Secondly, why would Hitler make his most powerful general a traitor if he helped to accomplish his life dream? Im sure your response will be something along the lines of Im a moron who needs to research more. Sorry if I took the words out of your mouth

Originally posted by filosophia
reply to post by Biliverdin

 

Ah, hidden plans revealed on a 70th anniversary... Okay you don't find anything suspicious about that? I usually dismiss most holocaust 'discoveries' out of hand, like Ann Franks diary written in ball point pen. Holocaust 'survivors' giving false stories, etc. Amazing that the holocaust finds a way in the news every week or so, a new survivors story or discovery, dont you find that a tad sensationalist? I do, maybe it all happened, but again, bringing the soviet tragedy into this mix, why dont we hear about soviet discoveries concerning all their deaths, survivor stories, etc? There is no such thing as soviet denial, oh wait, thats what msm does, ha.

No surprise this 'discovery' attempts to open the camps eight months earlier, so there would be more time to do the gassings, like how you claim they were started in 1933 what before hitler came to power? Lol.

Also I have a lot of issues with the Himmler thing which

One once again you reveal yourself to be a badly-researched idiot. The biro thing about Ann Frank's diary? A lie. Disproved years ago. And you have just been reported for Holocaust Denial.

You know what is hilarious about the gas chamber myth is they say the jews were told they were getting work, but then had to shave their hair and take a group shower. Men and women and children and they didnt suspect anything LOL.

But, again, other stories say the jews did know they were gas chambers, so why did the six million not defend themselves? Any normal person would be kicking and screaming no matter how many guards there were if they knew their deaths were coming.

Then there is the claim that it was jewish prisoners that moved and even cremated the bodies. Obviously for six million casaulties they would need many laborers. Plus these Jewish workers were mostly worked to death, so starved workers must move average weight dead bodies into crematorium ovens, without informing their fellow jewish prisoners somehow of what was going on. I'm sorry if I insult your beliefs but that story does not make one bit of sense.

reply to post by AngryCymraeg


So rather than arguing the facts, you report what you can't accept? LOL.

P.S. Quoting my rather large post and then responding with two lines indicates you did not really read what I wrote, maybe a quick skim at best.

P.p.s And I predicted you would insult my intelligence and insult my research. Thanks for being predictable, I am now more sure of my righteous battle.

Originally posted by neformore
reply to post by filosophia

 

I don't need to prove you wrong. You're the one who is denying a recorded historical genocide, and then trying to use another recorded historical genocide to back up your claims.

In other words, you're being hypocritical. As such, what's the point in arguing with you when you argue with yourself?

No, you are being a hypocrite, for placing this thread in off topic as oppossed to open debate, and going against the nonbiased moderation a proper forum staff should have, and then calling me the bad guy for defending my thread and expressing my freedom of speech. If you want to be fair, place this thread where it belongs, otherwise you are being hypocritical towards freedom of discussion.

Originally posted by filosophia
reply to post by AngryCymraeg

 

So rather than arguing the facts, you report what you can't accept? LOL.

P.S. Quoting my rather large post and then responding with two lines indicates you did not really read what I wrote, maybe a quick skim at best.

P.p.s And I predicted you would insult my intelligence and insult my research. Thanks for being predictable, I am now more sure of my righteous battle.

edit on 4-8-2012 by filosophia because: (no reason given)

Congratulations - you are now beneath contempt. So I am done disputing your drivel.

reply to post by AngryCymraeg


Glad to converse with you, come back anytime. You say you are done debating with me, but thats what they always say

reply to post by AngryCymraeg


Wikipedia says nothing about Lenin's wife's religion, but plenty of books do confirm she was Jewish, like Under the Sign of the Scorpion. Couldnt she be aristocracy and Jewish? Lenin was at least half jewish and his mother was nobility. And of course why does her religion matter? She is basically insignificant part of history, excepy for the fact that she was jewish and this certainly lends credibility to the concealed jewishness of lenin. So what is your source that she wasnt Jewish?

reply to post by filosophia


There are plenty of threads that deal with this subject that are in the General Conspiracies forum, and others on the ATS boards. It is only this one that has been moved here. If you want that addressed, you will need to take that up with a moderator. But given your myopia, and your unwillingness to do more than react like a stuck record, repeating the same thing, rather than discuss information as presented, while others are trying to engage in discussion may be the reason that it was relegated here. I for one have not made any personal remarks, or thrown any insults your way, I do find the whole Holocaust Denial movement somewhat ludicrous, but that is because it relies on people sticking their fingers in their ears and singing 'La, la, la, la - I can't hear you.' I find debate with such people to be like trying to reason with a child. You make a very good example of this. But I love the topic, and am happy just to have the opportunity to discuss it, so I have my own agenda and openly admit it, and therefore will carry on regardless. I don't care whether you pay attention or not, I will just take advantage of the platform, it is rare for me to get to exercise my understanding, so I take what is given and enjoy it while it lasts.

Many thanks.

reply to post by Biliverdin


You say you have not insulted me but say reasoning with me is like reasoning with a child, and that I am like a broken record. Those are personal insults. You are addressing me personally and not the topic of the holocaust.

Originally posted by filosophia
reply to post by Biliverdin

 

Ah, hidden plans revealed on a 70th anniversary... Okay you don't find anything suspicious about that?

Not really, any research requires funding, so it would make sense to hold out for the anniversary, and then piggy-back those events in order to maximise publicity for the work in the hope of attracting additional funding.

Originally posted by filosophia
I usually dismiss most holocaust 'discoveries' out of hand, like Ann Franks diary written in ball point pen.

So...what if it was...

a German inventor named Baum took out a ballpoint patent in 1910, and yet another ballpoint pen device was patented by Van Vechten Riesburg in 1916.

en.wikipedia.org...

But even so...it wasn't...

4. It has been said that there are entries in the diary in ballpoint pen. Is that correct?
No, that is not correct. All the diary entries are written in various types of ink and (coloured) pencil, not in ballpoint. The document analysis by the Netherlands Forensic Institute showed that the main part of the diary and the loose sheets were written in grey-blue fountain pen ink. In addition, Anne also used thin red ink, green and red coloured pencils and black pencil for her annotations: not ballpoint. Nevertheless, the allegation can still regularly be seen on extreme right-wing websites and elsewhere that the diary of Anne Frank is written in ballpoint pen. Sneering remarks are made about "A. Frank the ballpoint girl," and it is pointed out that the ballpoint pen only came into common use in Europe after the Second World War. The conclusion forced by this allegation is that the texts in the diary could not have been written by Anne Frank herself.

www.annefrank.org...

You are merely repeating the lies of others...others that have been proven, in court, to be lying. Another reason perhaps why you have been moved to this particularly forum.

Originally posted by filosophia
Holocaust 'survivors' giving false stories, etc. Amazing that the holocaust finds a way in the news every week or so, a new survivors story or discovery, dont you find that a tad sensationalist? I do, maybe it all happened, but again, bringing the soviet tragedy into this mix, why dont we hear about soviet discoveries concerning all their deaths, survivor stories, etc? There is no such thing as soviet denial, oh wait, thats what msm does, ha.

The problem with the Soviet atrocities, and for many of the actions of the Nazis in Eastern Europe for that matter, is the raising of the Iron Curtain. There was no flow of information. We didn't really start any serious scholarship of those regions of war time activities until after the fall of the Iron Curtain. It was very convenient for many people, particularly for those who had reason to keep the slave labour programmes a secret. Those liberated from labour camps, who originated in the East, on repatriation found themselves confined to a Gulag for consorting and abetting the enemy on return home, their homes now being under Soviet control.

Originally posted by filosophia
No surprise this 'discovery' attempts to open the camps eight months earlier, so there would be more time to do the gassings, like how you claim they were started in 1933 what before hitler came to power? Lol.

Who has made that claim? I certainly haven't. The gassing vans were used in the T4 Euthanasia Programme. Mental institutions were effectively emptied in this way, all part of the goal of achieving racial strength and purity, but not until after Hitler and the Nazi Party had assumed power. Many of those who had been involved in the T4 projects were later seconded to Lublin, under Globocnik, in order that their expertise could be utilised by those handling the Final Solution of the Jewish Problem, but they had in the interim been used in Poland and the occupied territories in similarly clearing out the mental institutions and hospitals there.

Originally posted by filosophia
Also I have a lot of issues with the Himmler thing which

Please feel free to ask, I have a couple of biographies of Himmler and a number on the history of the SS and am always happy to answer questions.

Originally posted by filosophia
So I love about the holocaust myth that Hitler is this supreme dictator, yet it is Himmler and Dr. Mengele that are doing all the revisions to stack more jews into bunkers, and doing experiments which could not possibly have been ordered verbally.

This is why it is important to understand the nature of the Fuhrerprinzip, and how it operated in Nazi Germany. Hitler made a statement, and then it was up to others to make that statement a reality. Responsibility operated from the bottom up. Hitler did not care for details, just results. Himmler was in overall charge of the operation of the Concentration Camp system, he delegated the staffing of the Concentration Camps to Theodore Eicke, and the organisation of the removal of the Jews, from the Reich, to Reinhard Heydrich...beyond that, there was no need for him to issue order, simply to inform his delegates of their objectives. Every concentration camp was charged with making a profit, but beyond that there was little direct overseeing of the day to day operation, unless they failed to make a profit, or conduct in the camps of the SS personnel was called into question. For example, when it was reported that Hoess was engaged in an affair with a Jewish prisoner, Himmler visited the camp and removed him, temporarily from his duties. We also know that in the lead up to the transportation of the Reich Jews East to Lublin, Odilo Globocnik requested he visited several times to discuss details.

Camp doctors, such as Mengele, and Brack were assigned duties, but they were free to engage in whatever side projects, given the disposability of the people under their command as they saw fit, as long as that did not interfere with the operation and productivity of the camp. Similarly, in view of the profiteering nature of the camps, outside, and affiliated organistions, were able to purchase the prisoners to use in private work details and projects. Documentation exists from Bayer, for example, then an affiliate of IG Farben, who regularly requested prisoners to be used in their drug trials, and who were purchased for that purpose from the SS.

Throughout the existence of the Concentration Camps, and Death Camps, because profit was part of the directive, there is a whole body of documentation attesting to the ideas and innovation put forward by those who sought ways to maximise that profit.

Originally posted by filosophia
And of course the fact is Hitler called Himmler a traitor for trying to make a peace deal, so why would Himmler do this if he was more racist and brutal than evn Hitler? Secondly, why would Hitler make his most powerful general a traitor if he helped to accomplish his life dream? Im sure your response will be something along the lines of Im a moron who needs to research more. Sorry if I took the words out of your mouth

Himmler was a traitor, to Hitler. He tried to negotiate a seperate peace whereby he was willing to hand over Hitler in exchange for his own safety. It was not Hitler's dream to commit mass murder, it was his dream to rid the Greater Germany of Jews, and while every effort was made to do so, in the end, it was not possible to do that by any other means than by mass murder, but not before every avenue had otherwise been exhausted.

reply to post by Biliverdin


Ah, so you are admitting the Holocaust is about 'maximizing publicity' as opposed to a solemn and dignified search for truth. Interesting.

Just because the ball point pen was patented does not mean ann frank could have gotten one. Earlier pens leaked and did not properly work until after her diary was written. As to the claim of colored pencils, I wonder where she got all these colored pencils in a concentration camp. But that is just speculation, the fact is her diary was edited, so what kind of diary gets edited? The core content of the diary may be true, but it was edited, as you say, to 'maximize publicity' after all her diary is probably the most famous diary ever written. The point being, the holocaust is more about publicity than truth.

reply to post by Biliverdin


Ah, so the death camps also had to churn a profit So Hitler wants jews dead, but only if he can make some money on the side LOL. Of course the camps would cost a lot, probably millions of tons of wood and coal to burn all those bodies. I guess that is why they had to make mattresses of jewish hair and sell old shoes...and yet, the shoes are still piled up at auschwitz. Please elaborate on the whole death camps need to make a profit.

Couple of things..

Firstly... no ones discussion is being quashed here - the subject is in the Ludicrous Online Lies Forum because that's where the denial of the holocaust belongs, but if people want to discuss it, and deny it, then this is where it will happen

And...because I've been through these arguments so many times before...

Heres a link to some previous stuff, including some real history and the maths of killing millions of people

reply to post by Biliverdin


Okay so imagine america creates death camps, do they A) Secretly plan out the operation, killing witnesses and even internal agents if needed, or B) do the entire operation by word of mouth, and then give all the responsibility to doctors and generals. As if generals just get up one day, wage war, then inform their leader of their exploits. It is just too ridiculous. Hitler can not be a sole dictator if mengele and himmler and goebbels were the real masterminds and executioners of the holoxaust. For the sake of posterity, please at least call the holocaust a democracy of nazis, because this whole hitler as a dictator is ridiculously contradictory.

reply to post by neformore


The general flow of ats is not participating in this discussion. It is the same users who have an agenda to support the holocaust. So it is not a very fair or open discussion. It is belittling and censorship. You are pushing it into the corner and saying 'okay have a fair discussion. You still can, it will just be in the corner away from the grown ups.'

Since I have your attention, why was this not placed in the hoax forum? Why did a new category have to be created, where ninety percent of the threads are about gallactic federation of light, and one thread with over fifty stars about the holocaust? I think ats is unfairly discriminating against holocaust discussion. Until this thread is moved, I will not respond any longer, so that users can see my last post and not have it buried further.

Originally posted by filosophia
You know what is hilarious about the gas chamber myth is they say the jews were told they were getting work, but then had to shave their hair and take a group shower. Men and women and children and they didnt suspect anything LOL.

Given that typhus had been rampant in the ghettos from which the Jews were transported, it would not have been such a stretch of the imagination for them to believe that they were in fact about to be deloused. And as a mother who's child has had nits, I can assure you that the easiest solution to infestation is to take the hair off at the scalp, and even when I was a child at school, this was still the only surefire solution. People will believe alot of things before they will believe something as unthinkable as that they are about to be led into a room to be slaughtered enmasse. You seem to think that such a thing is the norm.

Originally posted by filosophia
But, again, other stories say the jews did know they were gas chambers, so why did the six million not defend themselves? Any normal person would be kicking and screaming no matter how many guards there were if they knew their deaths were coming.

And you know this how? Have you ever experienced mass murder?

There were numerous revolts, and incidents where those arriving panicked and tried to fight back. All these are well documented, by the SS themselves, by the few survivors. There were organised rebellions at Warsaw, at Auschwitz, and an escape at Sobibor. All very well documented. If you cared to enquire for yourself rather than rely on lies that you have been told by others.

At the death camps, to avoid chaos, and the wasting of vital ammunition, it was decided to create as reassuring an environment as possible. Geraniums were even planted at the railside, and signs were painted in bright colours, to give the semblance of normalicy. And of course, those arriving did want to believe that they were simply going to get assigned a work detail, and that everything would be alright. It is only natural really that they should.

The following link is a very comprehensive overview of 'life' at Sobibor, from the perspective of one of those who escaped. I doubt you'll read it...but I shall post it nonetheless as it goes into great detail about the escape and the aftermath.

www.sobibor.info...

Similarly more information about the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising...

www.ushmm.org...

And another about the resistence at Auschwitz...

c3.ort.org.il... c4454e7de38&box=3e0902e0-b315-412c-a5ec-927e5dab4302&_pstate=item&_item=894eca76-efb5-48a1-99b7-1590e3cb3583

www.holocaustresearchproject.org...

Originally posted by filosophia

Then there is the claim that it was jewish prisoners that moved and even cremated the bodies. Obviously for six million casaulties they would need many laborers. Plus these Jewish workers were mostly worked to death, so starved workers must move average weight dead bodies into crematorium ovens, without informing their fellow jewish prisoners somehow of what was going on. I'm sorry if I insult your beliefs but that story does not make one bit of sense.

Not all the prisoners in the Concentration Camps were Jewish, many of the Kapos, who were delegated to run individual work details were 'priviledged' prisoners from the regular prison system. It was for these, the Kapos, that the brothel and the swimming pool were provided at Aushwitz. They were given vouchers, as a performance related incentive, that could be redeemed for use at the pool and the brothel. None-Jews were housed seperately from the Jewish prisoners, it was a very hierachal system within the camps, naturally. Also the sonderkommando, those Jews who were selected to work in the crematoria and gas chambers moving bodies were selected for that duty from arrivals and following the revolts, executed on a regular basis to prevent any reoccurrence. If you read the links that I provide above, this should be explained in greater detail. But if you have any questions after that, I am sure that I can find you more information to those specifics. Also, a number of women prisoners were selected for work in sorting the personal effects of the incoming transports, they were given extra food rations, and often allowed to keep their hair. These women did not mix with anyone in the camp, or with the sonderkommando. There was, at all levels, strict segregation.

Originally posted by filosophia
Ah, so you are admitting the Holocaust is about 'maximizing publicity' as opposed to a solemn and dignified search for truth. Interesting.

Where do I admit any such thing? This is a new piece of research that demands further study, and for that, it needs more money and attention. Is that really the best you can do?

Originally posted by filosophia
Just because the ball point pen was patented does not mean ann frank could have gotten one. Earlier pens leaked and did not properly work until after her diary was written. As to the claim of colored pencils, I wonder where she got all these colored pencils in a concentration camp. But that is just speculation, the fact is her diary was edited, so what kind of diary gets edited? The core content of the diary may be true, but it was edited, as you say, to 'maximize publicity' after all her diary is probably the most famous diary ever written. The point being, the holocaust is more about publicity than truth.

Haha...do you not even know the basics? Anne Frank's diary ends with her families arrest and her transportation to a concentration camp where she died. She wrote it while hiding out in a secret annex above what had been her families shop before they were forced, due to the Nuremberg Laws, to give up. Jews were not allowed to own businesses or property, or even work.

Please at least try and think for yourself. Just once, so I know that you can.

Originally posted by filosophia
You say you have not insulted me but say reasoning with me is like reasoning with a child, and that I am like a broken record. Those are personal insults. You are addressing me personally and not the topic of the holocaust.

Yes, because of your inability to engage in discussion. You simply repeat, like a stuck record. Not so much a criticism as an observation. You are failing to engage.