78 year old gets arrested for handing out FIJA pamphlets

FIJA is the Fully Informed Jury Association. LINK

They are an activist group that has set out to inform jurors of the true function of a jury in a free society. This 78 year old man is handing out pamphlets in New York and is arrested for doing so.



The crap hits the fan around 4 mins in. The Dept. of Homeland Security is called in too. This is a hilarious example of how we have gone too far as a nation. Most police do not like people knowing their rights, while others are 'just doing their job'. Try to see what happens when you exercise your rights next time you are pulled over.

And for giggles...

As troubling as it is to watch those "peace officers" and their calloused indifference towards their own actions, I can't say that this isn't a scene that we see being played out way too many times and in way too many places these days.

I can remember, as kid, when a Cop was a fixture in the neighborhood who everyone knew and who was concerned with the well being of his community. My how things change.

police have been told about FIJA...they don't do this to people handing out macys sale fliers

reply to post by Hefficide

I can remember, as kid, when a Cop was a fixture in the neighborhood who everyone knew and who was concerned with the well being of his community. My how things change.

I think it is funny how virtually all face to face interactions that police have with people result in someones day being ruined. Recently, I was driving through an affluent neighborhood trying to find a audio store. I couldn't find it and made the mistake of thinking that I could ask a policeman for directions. He ended up questioning me about my being in that area and what I was doing. After I realized he was treating me like a suspect, I did not say anything but that I do not consent to any searches. I know its a mild inconvenience but that type of crap is fairly common in my area... most of my friends have a similar story of being hassled by police for nothing.

I know a few cops personally as well. I know they abuse their badge because they brag about it openly.... like its not even a big deal. Not all police are jerks, but I sometimes feel that the law enforcement field attracts the best people and the worst people.

jury tampering n. the crime of attempting to influence a jury through any means other than presenting evidence and argument in court, including conversations about the case outside the court, offering bribes, making threats, or asking acquaintances to intercede with a juror.

legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com...

Unfortunately seeking out jurors and handing them anything is in fact jury tampering, no matter how innocuous the influence, they in fact were attempting to influence the jury.

I realize that the guy says they are just handing them out to everyone and they aren't targeting jurors. If that was true, they could hand out these pamphlets to people at a grocery store and not in front of a court house.



[edit on 8/6/2010 by whatukno]

reply to post by whatukno

Unfortunately seeking out jurors and handing them anything is in fact jury tampering, no matter how innocuous the influence, they in fact were attempting to influence the jury.

edit: removed statement about not watching the video, but as I can see in your edit, you did eventually.

From their website... the pdf from the bottom of the page.

FIJA activists should make it clear that they are only passing out information of general interest to all citizens, and are not trying to influence any particular case. No case-specific literature should be distributed with FIJA literature to anyone who might be a prospective juror. FIJA literature, which informs jurors of their rights and powers in general terms and which seeks reform of the judicial process, is protected speech under the First Amendment. If other people present are passing out literature protesting the case or cases which happen to being going on inside, fine. It is their right to protest, and the sidewalk is a traditional public forum for First Amendment purposes. (U.S. v. Grace et al, 461 U.S., 1983)

LINK


edit: No matter how you look at it, it is legal. The only people arrested and actually charged and convicted with a crime are people who distributed leaflets during a court injunction that specifically disallowed such behavior (and the injunction is being appealed as are the charges) and the people were convicted by the judge that ordered the injunction without a jury trial.

[edit on 6-8-2010 by DINSTAAR]

Thanks for posting this up I'm going to watch the second video after this post. If anyone out there is good with photoshop they should do a Empire/DHS theme, dark blue stormtroopers or a blue and white star destroyer or something along those lines.

reply to post by DINSTAAR


As I said before, if that was true, they could pass out that information at a grocery store.

Even if one active juror got that information from this group, it can actually be called jury tampering.

They may in fact be the most benign organization in the world, but, cmon, standing outside of a court house and passing out fliers and they don't think they will be influencing jurors? You can't be that gullible.

What grounds was he arrested for? I love the way these guys get up in the cops faces and tell them what's up. You could just see the one guy in the business suit look like he was ready to explode
Overpaid cretins. Homeland Scrutiny.

I don't live in any "homeland"!!!

S&F

Sorry. Didn't read all the responses before asking why he was arrested.

[edit on 6-8-2010 by Asktheanimals]

reply to post by whatukno

As I said before, if that was true, they could pass out that information at a grocery store.

Grocery stores are private property. They would likely get kicked out. The sidewalk around a court house is perfectly suitable and legal for protests and the handing out of literature. (U.S. v. Grace et al, 461 U.S., 1983)

Even if one active juror got that information from this group, it can actually be called jury tampering.

Jurors have gotten the info, and it has been called jury tampering. The people who accused those of jury tampering are as wrong as you are. The fact is, what these people are doing is within the law. The sidewalk outside the courthouse is a legal area for any protest like this.

They may in fact be the most benign organization in the world, but, cmon, standing outside of a court house and passing out fliers and they don't think they will be influencing jurors? You can't be that gullible.

"but, cmon" is not a valid reason to convict someone of a crime for doing something that is protected under the constitution. "but, cmon" is the reason charges of jury tampering do not stick.



I am sorry. You are wrong on this issue, and it upsets me that someone I know to be very intelligent is sticking up for this oppression of government. Though, it upsets me more that juries are not told about their rights in the first place.

Reply to whatukno.
Jury tampering?
Really? Have you read the FIJA info?

Informing potential jurists of their rights and duties is tampering/influencing?
Would you like to tell us How exactly?

Have you ever listened to the judge's instructions to the jury?
They are Never told that they have the duty to judge the Law as well as the accused.
In some cases he outright Tells them how to vote.

reply to post by DINSTAAR

Though, it upsets me more that juries are not told about their rights in the first place.

And that is where you are absolutely correct. That is where these people need this information.

What about a mass mailing.

Don't get me wrong, I am not against what they are doing, just how they are doing it.

The problem that I see with this arrest is that, if convicted, the president set would allow police to arrest anyone outside of a courthouse for passing out any literature. This does happen all over the country though the charges are normally dropped after the accused has been harassed and humiliated.

I was actually arrested once for standing in front of our county courthouse getting signatures for a proposition that we were trying to get onto a ballot concerning the draconian rules for third party candidates in elections here in Oklahoma. I was told that doing so was considered 'rabble rousing" (apparently an actual crime if you are doing it for any third party group but not if you are doing it for one of the big two) and could not go on when court was in session. I asked the officers when court was not in session and they laughed at me.

I was tempted to file suit against the county for violation of my constitutional rights but I didn't have the money at the time.

Originally posted by Hefficide

As troubling as it is to watch those "peace officers" and their calloused indifference towards their own actions, I can't say that this isn't a scene that we see being played out way too many times and in way too many places these days.

I can remember, as kid, when a Cop was a fixture in the neighborhood who everyone knew and who was concerned with the well being of his community. My how things change.

Except that you're wrong, and when you were a child, you just viewed the world differently.

That cop, when you were a child, was probably just like these two cops in this video: Corrupt and on a power trip.

The world doesn't change as we grow older...but our perception of things around us becomes much more enlightened.

reply to post by whatukno

Don't get me wrong, I am not against what they are doing, just how they are doing it.

Whew, thats good.

The reason that this type of activism is successful is because it is Baaaaaaaarely legal(see the movies NSFW). Just barely. It's one of those things that can easily be perceived as illegal but isn't. The police aren't fully aware of the exact legality and bring attention to the activists by hassling them. If they arrest anyone for jury tampering, the charges do not stick because it is clearly protected by the first amendment. Most people are let go later in the day or have a little 'time out' in the back of a cruiser for a couple minutes.

Doing something that is within the law, but makes the government mad is part of the whole protest. Not only are you there to inform people of issues but to point out that government agents such as these are frauds. Someone who does not know the law has no business being the authority of it.

Also, keep in mind that thousands of these protests have happened all over the country and in most cases, the police do a good job with allowing these people to do what they are legally allowed to. Much of the time though, it is after a previous incident where people were arrested and charges dropped.

Another thing in this is that interesting is that old man. He is a libertarian activist and is hilarious. This is his self bio.

Julian Heicklen was born at an early age. At 8 days, he was circumcised. This was so traumatic that he did not walk or talk for a year. There was nothing unusual about his early development. He went to Cornell University to become the usual engineering nerd.

Unfortunately, while in high school, his uncle gave him a book about the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution. To complicate matters, while at Cornell, he read Les Miserables by Victor Hugo and The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand. He transformed from the ordinary engineering nerd into a raving maniac about freedom. Ever since, he engaged in all sorts of socially unacceptable behavior. He stole a house, won the Yom Kippur war for Israel, corresponded with Soviet Premier Yuri Andropov, tried to sue the U.S. Post Office, smoked pot at the main gate of Penn State University every Thursday for 3 years, had a municipal law declared unconstitutional, and distributed subversive material at the U.S. Courthouse in Manhattan. He has been arrested 23 times and incarcerated 8 times.

He has the delusional idea that he can transform the United States from a totalitarian government into a free society. His wife and daughters are trying to get him committed to an old age home. He prefers prison where he has around the clock police protection, something he could not otherwise afford. In addition, that is where the interesting people reside.

from LINK

He is a chemistry professor and has a phd. He is no simpleton and knows exactly what he is doing. From what I gather. A previous protest in NY landed him in jail and charged with resisting arrest and eventually all charges were dropped.

UPDATE: I just found this, but apparently, he's out. LINK

In a telephone conversation later Julian stated that he was released from the hospital unharmed. He also said that technically he wasn't arrested, just shipped off in the ambulance.

lol

Amazing, Land of the free? Nawww no one is free we've be bought and paid for a long time ago.

YOU ARE THE RESISTANCE!

reply to post by DINSTAAR


I pray for the day I get put on a jury.

I'd shut the criminal prosecutors down cold.

Drugs? Innocent. I don't care if its Pablo god damn Escobar on trial.

Tax evasion? Innocent. I don't care if its Al Capone on trial.

Gun law violations? Innocent.

I agree with you guys calling these cops scum. Was a cop on a major metro PD for 7+ years.

The PDs are full of power tripping SOBs that are nothing more than bullies with badges and guns. They are far worse than many of the criminals I dealt with. So many were corrupt, drug addicts, pedophiles, rapists, etc. But unlike when a normal citizen is guilty of a crime and convicted, the departments sweep cops wrong doing under the rug constantly. It's sick.

Whoever said cops have changed as they got older is correct. I grew up around cops including the eventual asst. chief where I worked. He was forced out for being a good cop and not corrupt. They used to avoid people that act like cops do these days. Instead looking for people with a stroong sense of duty, community, and as non-violent as possible. That changed though at some point. They now actively search out violent sociopaths with contempt for the public. It's why I quit.

reply to post by mnemeth1


Good GOD I hope you aren't selected for ANY jury!

That kind of bias is sickening to my core. Having a fair trial and a trial by impartial jury is one of the cornerstones of this great country, and with one post you have proven that you would willingly throw that impartiality away just to get back at the cops.

I hope you are never on any jury! People like you make me sick, it's people like you that would let a multiple rapist go just because you don't like cops.

Originally posted by whatukno
Unfortunately seeking out jurors and handing them anything is in fact jury tampering, no matter how innocuous the influence, they in fact were attempting to influence the jury.

I realize that the guy says they are just handing them out to everyone and they aren't targeting jurors. If that was true, they could hand out these pamphlets to people at a grocery store and not in front of a court house.

That is quite a stretch. Influencing and tampering with a jury by showing them their rights and powers as a jury? Yeah, totally see where you're coming from there.

Your proposal for them to leave the courthouse grounds to seek other venues is amusing to me. It doesn't make any sense to go to a grocery store to hand out pamphlets about court. People will not care. You go to the venue where the information is valid and appropriate. Your recommendation makes about as much sense as someone handing out coupons for groceries at a courthouse instead of the grocery store; Handing out coupons at a grocery store could influence the shoppers perception of what they're actually buying, the horror indeed.

To reiterate though... Tampering with a jury.. Seriously?

What about the police and DHS interfering with the passage of information to jurors who may or may not know know their rights and powers? Isn't that tampering with a jury too? Restricting access to the information for the sake of what, exactly?

Originally posted by whatukno
Don't get me wrong, I am not against what they are doing, just how they are doing it.

Yeah, you're not against them.. nah, you're just being remarkably dense about it, is all. Like suggesting a baseball retail shop should relocate to the nearest hockey rink for better sales. Because that's where all the baseball fans are, of course.

[edit on 7-8-2010 by SyphonX]