The Second Messiah

I just recently came back to ATS and also i'd just finished reading a very compelling book. The Second Messiah. A general overview of the book, is it talks about the Turin Shroud, The Knights Templar and Freemasonry, and how they all interlink with each other It's also been written by the same duo who did The Hiram Key.
Just wondering if many people have read this and what your thoughts were about it ?
I have to say, that although it didnt reveal too many great secrets about Freemasonry, it did open my eyes to alot of things we perceive as being normal.. and some of the links between these organisations seem to have too many coincidences to be dismissed as false.

[edit on 18-6-2004 by Scarface]

I've read "The Second Messiah," and my considered opinion is that it is historical fiction. It suffers from that common disease of conspiracy books, namely making a supposition on one page, then taking that supposition as fact on another. Really, honestly, if you think back on it: what is the actual evidence that the figure on the Shroud of Turin is actually Jacques de Molay?

i also have read this book, and agree the authors make several leaps of faith.
the presim of a second messiah is sound from several aspects.

the theory that the shroud is de Molay has several problems , the biggest IMO
being, according to them the torture occured with in hours at most days of
the arrests. that being the case there is no way the figure could be de Molay
or any Templar. deMolay was a strict diciplinarian, and as i recall the Rule of the
order required that they cut their hair and not shave their beards.

There is ZERO evidence that the figure is Jaques DeMolay, but there is ample evidence it is NOT Jesus... the shroud is not only not of turn of the millinium manufacture, but the flax in it IS carbon dated to the early 1300's. That much that they wrote is true. The chemical process that COULD create the image is also correct, but highly unlikely.

Last, insert DeMolay into it in such a highly speculative manner, presented as fact, is poor journalism, but makes for great reading...

Oh, absolutely. I never meant to indicate that the book isn't fun to read. I quite enjoyed reading it myself. But, journalistically and historically, it's nonsense.

Originally posted by theron dunn
the shroud is not only not of turn of the millinium manufacture, but the flax in it IS carbon dated to the early 1300's.

Actually that is incorrect. The carbon dating carried out on the shroud was carried out on one of the corners of the shroud and it was the corners that were always handled the most when the shroud was help up and displayed by religious leaders in the medieval period. This means that the results from the carbon dating are wrong.

That is a fascile explanation, handling does not affect the age of the shroud per carbon dating. If you WANT to believe that the shroud is two thousand years old, that is fine, but that beleif, faith, if you will, flies in the face of clear evidence to the contrary.

Well to be honest, i take so called historical evidence with a bucket of salt. Due to fabrication, altering of this said evidence. But still i do see your points about them suddenly declaring certain things as facts... you also have to wonder where they are in all this, due to them been Freemasons. But anywho, fact and opinions my friends... the history is so changed... very hard to see the 'truth'

[edit on 18-6-2004 by Scarface]

[edit on 18-6-2004 by Scarface]

Originally posted by Eddie999

Actually that is incorrect. The carbon dating carried out on the shroud was carried out on one of the corners of the shroud and it was the corners that were always handled the most when the shroud was help up and displayed by religious leaders in the medieval period. This means that the results from the carbon dating are wrong.

How does the amount it was handled by people change the carbon molecules that are used in carbon dating? Seems like it would cause wear and tear but I don't think it would change the carbon molecules in it. Please clarify.

I'm not really sure how the handling would change it either. But since we are made of carbon, this carbon could have rubbed off on the turin itself. I'm sure there are at least some carbon molecules on the turin that came from individuals holding it, and more of them probably appear on the corners. But, I'm not sure how the data is compiled from the carbon testing, whether its an average of dates or what.

I'm curious as to the reactions from Brothers, who have read the book, concerning the Authors allegation that the Rituals themselves have been changed.

Originally posted by The Axeman
How does the amount it was handled by people change the carbon molecules that are used in carbon dating? Seems like it would cause wear and tear but I don't think it would change the carbon molecules in it. Please clarify.

I didn't make any reply to what Eddie999 wrote because what he claims is possible (though profoundly improbable).

What happens with carbon dating is that the proportion of carbon atoms in the sample which are the heavier isotope (for example, carbon-14. In nature, carbon is carbon-12) are measured.

Allow me to explain. In nature, when a plant incorporates carbon into its structure, it does so using carbon dioxide in the air. Carbon dioxide in the air contains a certain already known proportion of heavier carbon atoms, because of a constant influx of the heavier carbon isotope from space, from the Earth's crust, and from other radioactive events.

Let's say that this proportion is one atom of carbon-14 for every thousand atoms of carbon-12. The carbon-14 is incorporated freely, the same way carbo-12 is.

Animals will also have the same proportion of carbon-14 in their bodies, since they eat only parts of the plant that are less than a decade old, usually (very few animals can digest wood). Now, carbon-14 decays into nitrogen-14 and a beta particle with a half-life of 5730 years (according to wikipedia). Thus, by measuring the proportion of carbon-14 atoms in an organic sample, we can tell how long ago the plant or animal that provided that sample died (i.e. stopped incorporating carbon).

Now, the problem that Eddie999 is relating is that if someone touched the edge of the sample, they may have contaminated it with oils from their hand, which would obviously have the modern proportion of carbon-14, which could throw off the dating process. The thing is, though, no scientist worth their salt would use a contaminated sample. Plus, the samples that are being used are extremely small, so it's very doubtful that such a mistake was made.

Originally posted by Dotanuki
I'm curious as to the reactions from Brothers, who have read the book, concerning the Authors allegation that the Rituals themselves have been changed.

The Scottish Rite rituals have been changed from older, Jacobite forms... but they may have only been changed back, since it is unlikely that the original Scottish Rite rituals were Jacobite in character.

This is not a question specifically for a Freemasonry... this is widely-known history. Albert Pike, for example, re-wrote the Scottish Rite rituals as he found them, because in their old form they were (apparently) a mish-mash of poorly communicated esoterica and vile and vengeful Jacobite sentiment.

P.S.
The original rituals are still obtainable, as Albert Pike made sure to preserve them for posterity. The authors are quite incorrect when they assume they could not get access to these rituals, but inasmuch as they are from the UK, I'm not surprised (they wouldn't have the day-to-day understanding of these rituals that a Scottish Rite Mason would have)


[edit on 18-6-2004 by AlexKennedy]

I saw a show in the Discovery Channel that was on the Shourd and what they did was they took a fiber from the inner part and dated it. The date was a surprize to all involved it was 1200's not what they were hoping for. They said they believed it was a painting done for the church or somehting saying it was holy to make a renued interest in Christ.
I personally thought it was a faked thing all along. The show was enough for me, to think to myself "Yep I was right"

I have not read the book I read the Hiram Key and a membere in ATS recomended the Pilgrim path, but I will eventually will read that book as well.

Now as the shroud this it my point, If you believe in Santa, the tooth fairy and the Easter Bonny I guess is ok to believe in the Myth of the Shroud.

Its an enjoyable book to read but parts of the authers thesis are backed up by either word of mouth or less than compelling science. For instance the authers Reus Duex Theory is based primarily on word of mouth sources. While the carbon dating on the shroud itself is debateable because of the affect that a fire in the 15th century could have had on the cloth as well as various other reasons that would lead to having a piece of fabric misdated. The authers most compelling arguement in my openion is in the opening chapters of the book that include an analysis of the Sinclairs and Rossyln chapel as well as the following chapters on the evalution of the Tarot card and Knights Templar.

I agree about the Res Deux informant which they seemed to use alot as 'proof'. But still i'd like to see Rosslyn Chapel excavated and soon

the only things that stuck with me from reading both of those books (second messiah and hiram key) was the connection between tarot cards and the knights templer (which i feel is undeniable) and the possiblity of rosslyn being excavated to see if what is written could be true!

[edit on 22-6-2004 by Strigoi]

Originally posted by Scarface
I just recently came back to ATS and also i'd just finished reading a very compelling book. The Second Messiah. A general overview of the book, is it talks about the Turin Shroud, The Knights Templar and Freemasonry, and how they all interlink with each other

It's also been written by the same duo who did The Hiram Key.
Just wondering if many people have read this and what your thoughts were about it ?

I have to say, that although it didnt reveal too many great secrets about Freemasonry, it did open my eyes to alot of things we perceive as being normal.. and some of the links between these organisations seem to have too many coincidences to be dismissed as false.
[edit on 18-6-2004 by Scarface]

I've read The Hiram Key & The Second Messiah. Frankly, neither of these books even make a good door stop. ...but they've accomplished their purpose. They've made $$$ for the authors.

Theron Dunn... Kennedy... your skepticism is quite understandable, but your reticence to awknowledge recent developments in the researches to validate or debunk the Shroud of Turin is also profoundly deplorable.

Eddie999 was right on one point: that the carbon dating of the shroud, which was evaluated at the end of the '70s by a team of scientists, was based of a piece of the Shroud -one its corners- which were ATTACHED TO THE SHROUD during the 14th, at the times it was first revealed publicly. This discovery was made by a scientist who`s been able to make tests on the Shroud a 2 or 3 years ago, and the discovery -which turned everything back to a mystery- was revealed by major newspapers only a few months ago (you still can easily find the articles on that on the net).

The thing is that there is a tradition from the local clergy that states that the Shroud can unfortunately be shown in public (and made accessible to scientists) only once every 20 years, which is not very pratical for scientists who wanna solve this mystery, but is whoever necessary for a better preservation of the artifact.

Now don't worry... there`s still a lot of room for you to believe that it`s not the Shroud that covered the body of Christ before His resurrection, since cardon-14 test on the original part of the shroud only indicated that the thing was older than the 14th century, it`s impossible at this time to determine exactly from which year the Shroud is dating, as scientists will have to wait another 20 years to be able to study it. But still if it is not the Shroud of Christ, then it`s still one of the greatest mysteries of all times, and can hardly be explained by easy bets such as medieval photography experiments or magical zerocopy of the body of Jacques De Molay by its malevolent Templar cronies.