Anti-Defamers Defame Muslims: Is the ADL Right or Being Hypocritical?

The ADL are a supremacist organization plain and simple. Reasonable defense against neo-nazis is fine an all, but they go far beyond that and knowingly or not, support the racial nationalism they claim to combat.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


This is an irrelevant question. Other nations have their own laws and rights--they are not the US, so what they do or do not allow doesn't really matter and shouldn't affect the policies of the US. We have freedom of religion here, they might not have the same freedoms everywhere else.

But to take your bait, no there are no churches in Mecca. Mecca is considered sacred ground to muslims. They wouldn't like a church there, but they wouldn't oppose one anywhere else--for example, there are churches all over Egpyt.

A church in Mecca would be like a mosque in the middle of Vatican City. Do you think the Catholics would allow that?

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
it is legal to build a Christian church in Mecca, Saudi Arabia?

I think we both know the answer to that .

Are you eager to emulate an Islamic Monarchy without a constitution ?

If it is a message `being sent to the Islam World` what message is it ..... ?

In an effort to oppose you we will emulate your culture of intolerance... eh?

You catch my drift ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These are the occasions when the flowery prose of tolerance and inclusiveness are tempered by action, an opportunity to reaffirm what America still stands for ...... or to change tact .

There always lies the danger, of becoming that which we despise .






[edit on 2-8-2010 by UmbraSumus]

reply to post by Stormdancer777


I know this is going to sound confrontational and I cannot find another way to word it so that it doesn't come across that way, but I want to make a point about "taking others feeling into consideration"..

What about the feeling of the Muslims who want to build their mosque there and are being met with EXTREME hostility, intolerance, bigotry, and an outright campaign across the nation to keep them from building it including making up lies such as the opening date and using wording that purposefully tries to make it seem like the mosque and ground zero will be directly across the street from each other and tries to infer that they purposefully chose the site to slap us in the face?

I find it odd that many of the people (not directing this toward you, Stormdancer) who are opposing this mosque in the name of taking people's feelings into consideration are also the same people who complain all the time about how politically correct everything is nowadays.

I say let them build it. Instead of asking them to consider people's feelings, why don't we show them what America is REALLY MADE OF? Why don't we show them that we attribute the deeds of those who (supposedly) attacked NYC on 9/11 only with extremist, fundamentalist, ignorant, hateful psychos and not with the vast majority of American Muslims who want nothing more than to worship in their own way at a site that the saw as appropriate for one reason or another? Why don't we show them that we aren't going to live in fear anymore? That the actions of a few crazies aren't going to turn us into intolerant people?

I say some people start a counter campaign to reach out and welcome their new Muslim neighbors to the neighborhood and let them know we welcome diversity of all kinds (yes ALL KINDS, Anti defamation league!) and can put the past behind us. I wish I lived in New York, I would do it myself.

reply to post by searching4truth


Right you are. In fact, there are at least two instances of mosques being met with opposition and they are no where near close to Ground Zero. They are thousands of miles away.

Vandalism and Arson at Texas Mosque

Tea Party opposes Mosque in California

reply to post by ~Lucidity


Let us also not forget that Muslims also died on 9/11, and I'm not talking about the extremist hijackers.

I wonder if those who oppose this mosque out of concern for other's feelings even consider this fact.

reply to post by nunya13

No, I never forget.

People of many countries and religions died that day.

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
reply to post by nunya13

 

No, I never forget.

People of many countries and religions died that day.

Right you are and some might argue freedom died that day also. Paving the way for the military industrial complex to prosper and thrive.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by ~Lucidity

 

I think there is another explanation.

“Cordoba,” in Islamic symbolic terms, means Islamic rule in the West. It does not mean “coexistence,” unless coexistence is interpreted as referring to Islamic rule. Pamela Geller at Atlas Shrugs cites the article (original in Arabic) published by Iraqi-American Khudhayr Taher on 18 May, in which Taher explains the following:

From the Cordoba Initiative Organization:

Cordoba Initiative (CI) aims to achieve a tipping point in Muslim-West relations within the next decade, steering the world back to the course of mutual recognition and respect and away from heightened tensions.

They don't seem to be talking about an "invasion" or "Islamic rule in the West".

This is what the Organization says about the Cordoba House:

Cordoba House is a Muslim-led project which will build a world-class facility that promotes tolerance, reflecting the rich diversity of New York City. The center will be community-driven, serving as a platform for inter-community gatherings and cooperation at all levels, providing a space for all New Yorkers to enjoy.

This proposed project is about promoting integration, tolerance of difference and community cohesion through arts and culture. Cordoba House will provide a place where individuals, regardless of their backgrounds, will find a center of learning, art and culture; and most importantly, a center guided by Islamic values in their truest form - compassion, generosity, and respect for all.

Edit: added to external content
edit: cannot seem to include added external content about the description of the Cordoba House. It basically talks about how they intend on including swimming pools, and art exhibition center, a bookstore, restaurant, and 500 seat auditorium.




[edit on 2-8-2010 by nunya13]

[edit on 2-8-2010 by nunya13]

[edit on 2-8-2010 by nunya13]

Why is it some people prefer to believe the worst? Even if they have to go back ten centuries to find it? Re: Cordoba. Oh and how did the Muslims fare during the Inquisitions? Tit for tat...how will we ever get out of this vicious cycle?

reply to post by searching4truth

Absolutely!!!!!!! This "mosque" is not even at ground zero, it's two blocks away, it does not even border the site on any side. I used the quotes because as you said, it is more of a YMCA with a prayer room.

The landing gear flew in to this building.

Tell me, do you guys think it makes you more intelligent people to be apologists when it comes to Islam? It seems like in any other case, most of you would blame religion. Especially when it comes to Christianity. Suddenly your opinions change when Islam is involved and you act its a benevolent force.

This is coming from a completely non-religious person.


reply to post by ~Lucidity

No, I never forget.

People of many countries and religions died that day.

Oh please. Americans die all over the world all the time, but its not something that personally affects us. 9/11 was completely different. Do not act like you know how we feel about it, because a few people from your country happened to be some of the victims.

You clearly have a tendency to make excuse for Islam. You also don't seem to have any feeling about the fact it was involved in launching the landing gear of a plane in to this building.


[edit on 3-8-2010 by Hudson]

reply to post by Hudson


We're not apologists. We just think people who blame Islam as a whole for 9/11 are #ing idiots.

Originally posted by SpectreDCIf someone has a problem with this, it means they believe Islam was responsible from 9/11. It's that simple. No if ands or buts.

Lol, such ignorance in the name of political correctness. How about you take off those rose tinted glasses of yours and see what's really going on? Unlike you, I've lived in quite a few countries, ranging from the M.E. to Asia to Europe and of course, N. America.

Know what most Muslims in Europe have to say about 9/11? "The Americans deserved it and I'm glad someone has the guts to stand up to them". I was even taunted back in 2001 by a Muslim guy while at a restraunt with my fiance at the time because he heard us speak English. "Oh, Americans! How did you like 9/11? Are you mad? Maybe we do it again?".

My point is, MANY Muslims believe they were responsible for it, just like many non-Muslims do. Many Muslims are HAPPY it happened. (Minus Iran, the only Muslim country I saw who condemned the act, thanks guys.)

So, it really doesn't matter if the Muslims did it or not, as they're still taking credit for it. What does that say about them?



(Disclaimer: I know not every Muslim is a bad guy, but I find it ridiculous when many within the Islamic faith still herald as the 9/11 attacks as a "good thing". One pet peeve of mine, are people like Spectre who is either Muslim himself defending other Muslims OR being PC for the sake of it. Rose tinted glasses need to come off people. The world isn't a kind place, towards anyone.)

reply to post by SpectreDC

Apologists. That could be a whole other discussion in itself, couldn't it? Could be we have some American Idiot apologists around too, but that seems to be too inflammatory of a thing to say. Too politically incorrect, so to speak?

Originally posted by Hudson
reply to post by ~Lucidity

 

No, I never forget.

People of many countries and religions died that day.

Oh please. Americans die all over the world all the time, but its not something that personally affects us. 9/11 was completely different. Do not act like you know how we feel about it, because a few people from your country happened to be some of the victims.

You clearly have a tendency to make excuse for Islam. You also don't seem to have any feeling about the fact it was involved in launching the landing gear of a plane in to this building.


[edit on 3-8-2010 by Hudson]

Where is this response from you coming from based on what I posted? Strawman much?

I know where the landing gear landed. Irrelevant. Lots of debris landed in a lot of places on that day.

I am "acting" like nothing. My country? I'm American. And not Muslim, in case you going to crawl there next up your strawman's butt.

It personally affects some of us when anyone dies. Goes to awareness and empathy, I suppose.

America and Americans were fortunate and had some damn good law enforcement going on to not have been so affected by foreign terrorism to that degree for many decades. Many countries were and had been dealing with it sanely, with intelligence and law enforcement/paramilitary/military, depending on their governmental situations, and with a they're-not-going-to-get-to-us attitude and with common sense and logic in their responses.

Was 9/11 tragic and horrible? Hell yes! But the after effects are probably even worse. America lost its collective mind on that day.

OMG how could this happen to us?! Even though it was an arguable inevitable possibility forever. Even though it was happening all over the world, where people would simply pick up the pieces and carry on with their lives...not letting the "terrorists" affect them because, see. That's how terrorists win.

A good majority of Americans let the fear mongers control them and allowed and are still allowing a lashing out against an entire religion, allowed attacks on two countries, and caused the needless deaths of hundreds of thousands more people, more Americans and allies included. This was a disproportionate response on many levels. Illogical. Based on fear. Where is the real grit, determination, and backbone to pick up, carry on, and not let the terrorists win?

And look what they've done to us your "leaders" and the "terrorists." They've made us look like fools, hating an entire race and religion. They made us as a people and a country look like unthinking, bigoted idiot cowboys who were collectively unaware of the world state before that day and answered this affront with bombs and bullets and more killing. As if "terrorism" started on that day. As if it's not a fact of life and a danger ALWAYS and everywhere.

It's not even logical to think that you can fight or even quantify an ideology with guns and bombs and so much collateral damage, which will simply breed more terror for generations to come. There's that lack of logic again.

And look around you. At what America has become. The leadership who kept scaring you used the events of 9/11 to rob you blind. Same leadership who left the borders and ports wide open had you so scared about "terrorists?" Like that makes any common sense and wasn't a clue to how scared they really weren't. Theyused (some of) you and your fear and ignorance.

Yes, take a good hard look at what's happened and is still happening as a result of one attack. You know, there's a hole at ground zero that pisses ME off more than any Islamic community center ever will because that shows they really GOT to us. They won.

That being said, I will remind you that the topic in this thread is the ADL...hypocrites or not?

[edit on 8/3/2010 by ~Lucidity]

reply to post by Frontkjemper


Right, ignorance.

I'm the ignorant one who thinks you can gather the beliefs of over 1.7 billion people from a handful of people you've met yourself.

Apparently, one person is a majority of 1.7 billion. I never knew this. I guess I am ignorant.

reply to post by Frontkjemper


Rose colored glasses and political correctness? Versus resisting blind jingoism and believing in and fearing a mythical, morphing beast that someone created and told you was your "enemy?" Not even close.

I doubt the perpetrators of 9/11 were real Muslims at all. They hurt their people and their religion as badly as they hurt the sanity of the American people.

But back on topic, is the ADL propagating the illusion of the mythical, morphing beast of an enemy?

[edit on 8/3/2010 by ~Lucidity]

A response from the ADL about the "outcry" against their decision....

Foxman decries outcry against ADL

“If you read our statement, which most people have not read - if you've seen it and read it, the statement that we did spells out as precisely and as accurately and as delicately and as simply as possible our position,” Foxman said.

And that position is? That they did not come out against it!!!

Another victim of the viral media wars? Did people take their words too literally and grab it to support their side of the argument? Seems so. And if so, I apologize for any bad leanings I may have had. Though I was waiting for this response to make a final determination.

Now let's see if all the people who grasped onto the ADL's statement as a "win" for their side in the opposition to the Islamic center spread the retraction/correction/apologies out just as virally.

Rather doubt they will, but one can hope.

I guess that wraps up this coverage of the ADL's stance on the Islamic center in lower Manhattan.


Interesting perspective in response to the ADL's taking a stand.

Build the Mosque at Ground Zero

Pretty much matches my own...thing is that they win if we block this Islamic center and they win if we don't. But which win is really the most damaging in the end?


[edit on 8/3/2010 by ~Lucidity]

Just an update in this video...the end is the ADL represetative speaks near the end of the clip. Click the link to watch on YouTube.





[edit on 8/5/2010 by ~Lucidity]

Interesting related development...

Fareed Zakaria Returns Honor From ADL Because Of Their "Ground Zero Mosque" Stance

Originally posted by Hudson
reply to post by searching4truth

 

The landing gear flew in to this building.

Tell me, do you guys think it makes you more intelligent people to be apologists when it comes to Islam? It seems like in any other case, most of you would blame religion. Especially when it comes to Christianity. Suddenly your opinions change when Islam is involved and you act its a benevolent force.

This is coming from a completely non-religious person.

If the landing gear flew into the building then I stand corrected, however I thought I read info to the contrary, so I don't know. However, assuming you correct there still were not any casualties, so.......

And no I am not an Islamic apologist, however I do support freedom of religion, including those that have a different one than my own. I am not Muslim, but I do support their constitutionally given right to practice their religion in America.

I do not understand how any religious person could not support the building of the mosque/prayer center. If it legally allowed to block this center, how long until a Christian can not put up a Church. How long will it take for the justification to be found because some wacko Christian blew up an abortion center or killed a doctor at the center to label all Christians bad and forbid the building of a new Church?

The fact of the matter is this group has already been using this building, with the same purpose. This building was not destroyed in 9 11, they wanted to tear it down and rebuild it to be more useful for its already designated purpose.

Now, lets say crazy Christian abortion doctor killing "terrorist" is a regular member of Church A. After the whole situation unfolds, the appropriate parties are delt with in some fashion. Eight years later, Church A wants to remodel, tear down all of the existing or even part of it. Nope, not gonna happen because we have provided the legal backdrop to hinder the construction of religious institutions.

Honestly, if the immediate neighborhood doesn't seem to mind, why the heck does anyone else's opinion matter? In Manhattan, only 36% opposed the structure, so let the opinion of the other 64% do what they wish.

This particular building was purchased by the same group in 2009 for 18 million (I also saw that there was some damage, so I do stand corrected). However, as I stated this same exact piece of property has already been in use as a prayer center.

My only concern as far it goes is where the money is coming from, as the Cordoba Initiative does not possess the funds to purchase, maintain, heck they shouldn't even be able to pay the rent. So as long as the funding is coming from honest money I have no issue with it.









[edit on 10-8-2010 by searching4truth]

[edit on 10-8-2010 by searching4truth]