To all female ATS members, who support the ways of the middle east.

reply to post by Stormdancer777
Yes, I am a man. I find the treatment of women in so many countries to be abhorrent.

Maybe it was because of my upbringing in Appalachia, I don't know. I remember the treatment that would be handed out to a wife-beater in the valley that i grew up in. The woman's relatives would give him the barrel treatment. They beat the crap out of him with sticks, then put him in a barrel and rolled it down a steep hill into the woods.

Consequently, most men didn't think of beating their wives. The few that did, if they survived their punishment, did not repeat offend!



[edit on 3-8-2010 by butcherguy]

reply to post by centurion1211


1. Get a life (spelling zz)

2. Do you even know what me and butcherguy were discussing?

Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by dreamwalker74

 

I am a female member of this board.I am also
anti-muslim,pro-Israel and a fundamental christian.
I also bake cookies,anoy others and make a nuisance
of myself.

Hi,

Just started reading this thread. seems to me Dewamwalker74 that you may be unhappy or very judgemental? Sometimes what we fear and what we hate are aspects of ourself. It is only when we go inwards and see what we have been projecting externally that we realise that we have to go through an inner journey to peace and love.

I hope that you find peace and love instead of being so anti and so pro and so fundamental. It is time to look beyond the ego and start living from the heart.

I believe that in this world we have a lot to learn. The way we treat each other online, in day to day lives, how we treat our animals, and men and women. The way we segregate and treat gays-straights-transgender.

We need to change.

We need to treat people,animals fairy, we need to not pass judgement on people who do no harm, we need equal rights for men and women, we need to be positive in this change, and we need to do it from our hearts, not from anger.

We need to come together and make this change.

Originally posted by butcherguy
Maybe because they have to do it at the risk of their lives.

That's what I assumed is the case. Look I'm not heartless I'm just trying to glean some kind of truth from all the posts in this thread and frankly I don't know what to believe.

If we mention abuses in the ME people come out of the woodwork who claim to have lived there and go on to describe a virtual utopia where women are cherished and enjoy all privileges of the western world. Others come on to say because of American intervention the rights of women have suffered which has led to all the abuse. Then I'm told rapes don't happen there.

I asked about progressive muslim women and why, if they are so progressive, are they not organizing and lending support. Again someone supplies a lengthy list of organizations that are trying to address the problem. So this tells me there must be abuses or why would so many groups be set up to help? We're getting too many half truths.

Some say it's a war for resources, others say it's a war to protect the rights of women/children. Then there's the war on terror or if you listen to the rest of the world it's just the US being a big bully. I've had enough. You can't keep asking the mothers/fathers/sons/daughters of Americans and their allies to keep doing more than the people are willing to do for themselves. That doesn't mean they have to be the ones who stand up to their oppressors, we would intervene on their behalf...it's just they have to first admit there is a problem and want our help. Unless they are willing to do that we are always going to be seen as the problem not the solution.

So on the one side we've got people showing examples of abuse and on the other we have people claiming everything would be just fine if we would leave. Do I believe you and support endless war or do I believe that we are in fact the problem? I don't want to impose my will on others. I do care about victims of abuse but when so many deny it or blame us for it I see no common ground from which anything can be accomplished. Except maybe more finger pointing, abuse, hate and war.

reply to post by Morningglory
Good post.

We really don't know. Even the people who claim to be there... May or may not be there.

If they are, then we need to wonder what color the lenses of their glasses are before we swallow their version of the 'truth'.

Peace be with you.

ETA: An interesting fact to ponder, is that in the Bible, (Old and New Testaments) plenty of women are mentioned by name. The Quraan only mentions ONE woman by name. Is this telling? I don't know, but is interesting.







[edit on 3-8-2010 by butcherguy]

reply to post by butcherguy

Thanks for that butcherguy. I'm not an uncaring person it's just there can be many versions of the truth. I guess the problem is which one do we believe in enough to justify our actions?

If it makes you feel more balanced MorningGlory, I live in an area were quite a lot of people who are not Muslim go and work in the Middle East for part of their careers.

Many of them like some of the people, and hate Islam with a seething passion that they keep mostly under the surface. The atheists and agnostics seem to come back with a deeper dislike of Islam than anyone else.

This is what does not come out in these "the ME is great" posts. You can like some people, and you can like some of the good things about a culture, and still not like Islam.

Smart people take what is good, and leave the rest behind.

I work with people from the middle east - one particularly well educated man liked to talk politics with me sometimes. We didn't always agree but he made two points very clear. Corruption is the norm in the ME. And that we take what we have for granted and it caused him great worry that we did not understand what a good thing we have here.

[edit on 2010/8/3 by Aeons]

Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by centurion1211

 

1. Get a life (spelling zz)

2. Do you even know what me and butcherguy were discussing?

1. Get an education. It matters - especially when trying to communicate with others.

2. Yes. And it wasn't even related to the OP discussion.

reply to post by butcherguy

An interesting fact to ponder, is that in the Bible, (Old and New Testaments) plenty of women are mentioned by name. The Quraan only mentions ONE woman by name. Is this telling? I don't know, but is interesting.

Are you saying that because the Bible mentions plenty of women by name, somehow that leads people to believe something

Or because the Quran names one woman, therefore somehow that leads people to believe something?

I don't understand the point of this statement.

ETA:

Just to add this in to the discussion:
Word/ Meaning Mentioned in the Quran
Al-Rajul (Man) 24
Al-Mar'ha (Women) 24
Man and Women are mentioned in the same exact amount of time in the Quran, does that somehow lead us to believe something

[edit on 3-8-2010 by oozyism]

reply to post by centurion1211


1. Get a life, this is not a spelling class. I can spell how ever I want, as long as you understand it. I bet u undestnd wat im saiing.

2. Describe in your own words what our discussion was about.

reply to post by Aeons

Thank you Aeons. That does help put things in perspective. I very much appreciate what we have here and fear our involvement in this war on/of terror is making some of what we love disappear. I'm just tired of being hated by the world, I'm tired of our own troops being despised and labeled as baby killers by our own people. I'm tired of seeing examples of horrible abuses world wide.

It just seems like everyone is running around blaming each other while we bleed out money we don't have. We are left to watch as our family members/innocent civilians die in a war that, imo, the majority doesn't support.

reply to post by oozyism
Pretty simple really.

The Bible shows women being important enough to actually mention that they HAVE a name.

If you read the link I have up there (appears to be Islamic), you will see that they say that the Koran uses women as illustrations in it's text.

Even Mohammed's mother is not recognized by name. Nor is the first woman, Hava (Eve).

reply to post by oozyism



The point of the OP was that (many but not all) men in the middle east treat women (their fellow human beings) like property, and that this is hardly an enlightened form of thinking. And that religious and cultural beliefs can not be used as an excuse to make it seem right.

Care to comment on that?

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by oozyism

 

Pretty simple really.

The Bible shows women being important enough to actually mention that they HAVE a name.

If you read the link I have up there (appears to be Islamic), you will see that they say that the Koran uses women as illustrations in it's text.

Even Mohammed's mother is not recognized by name. Nor is the first woman, Hava (Eve).

OK I'll be polite:

You seem to think that women are somehow demeaned by the Quran because they have not been named, by their first name?

How did you come to that conclusion?

"anyone, male or female, who does right actions and believes, will enter the Garden. They will not be wronged by so much as the tiniest spick."
(Surat an-Nisa:124)

Originally posted by centurion1211
reply to post by oozyism

 

The point of the OP was that (many but not all) men in the middle east treat women (their fellow human beings) like property, and that this is hardly an enlightened form of thinking. And that religious and cultural beliefs can not be used as an excuse to make it seem right.

Care to comment on that?

Anyone who treats their women like property is doing wrong, and Islam doesn't condone such actions, nor does Democracy, or Western morals condone "Western Women being treated like property, by not all, but many Western men".

reply to post by oozyism
Not implying, coming right out and saying it.

Let's say I go to visit Sheik Hazzen byn Awful in Omakazukkistan. When I meet his 'family', who will be introduced by name?

Who will even be in the room?

Will we see their faces?

You understand.

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by oozyism

 

Not implying, coming right out and saying it.

Let's say I go to visit Sheik Hazzen byn Awful in Omakazukkistan. When I meet his 'family', who will be introduced by name?

Who will even be in the room?

Will we see their faces?

You understand.

Here is a funny question, why was Maryam's name mentioned?

What does meeting a Sheik have to do with Quran?

Are you saying covering your face is mentioned in the Quran?


ETA:

Here is something funny from the Quran:

33:35 (Asad) VERILY, for all men and women who have sur­rendered themselves unto God, and all believing men and believing women, and all truly devout men and truly devout women, and all men and women who are true to their word, and all men and women who are patient in adversity, and all men and women who humble themselves [before God], and all men and women who give in charity, and all self-denying men and self-denying women, [38] and all men and women who are mindful of their chastity, [39] and all men and women who remember God unceasingly: for [all of] them has God readied forgiveness of sins and a mighty reward.

[edit on 3-8-2010 by oozyism]

Originally posted by Morningglory ... So on the one side we've got people showing examples of abuse and on the other we have people claiming everything would be just fine if we would leave. Do I believe you and support endless war or do I believe that we are in fact the problem? I don't want to impose my will on others. I do care about victims of abuse but when so many deny it or blame us for it I see no common ground from which anything can be accomplished. Except maybe more finger pointing, abuse, hate and war.

So do you walk into someone else's office and tell them how to do their work? Do you walk into your neighbor's house and straighten out their family?

No, you stay out of what is not your business. The way they run their societies is their business. As it happens, their way is just about as reasonable, and just about as unreasonable as ours. So we can gain by sharing of views but we are in no moral position to dictate.

Furthermore we used to have a tradition in this country of limited government. I still like that ideal even though I know it's not the reality any more -- I want to get back to it. And I don't want my government taking on nation-building roles. If I have something I want to say to people in another nation, I can go there and say it (and I've always felt free to speak with common people, even in places with repressive regimes) or say it right here on the internet. I can say it myself, and I'll speak for myself in my own way. I don't want the US government deciding what my position is and using the force of our military to communicate it.

reply to post by oozyism
Miriam was the Prophet Jesus's mother.

Covering of the face of a woman is most certainly mentioned in the Koran.

Surah "Al Ahzab" ayat no 59 Allah says; "O Prophet! Tell to your wives, and daughters and Muslim women, that they should keep putting a part of their wrapping covers over their faces. This is nearer than this that if they are recognized, they should not be annoyed. And Allah is Forgiving, Merciful". Read more: Where exactly in the Koran does it say that a woman should wear a hijab or some sort of covering on her head? | Answerbag www.answerbag.com...

You understand the question about the Sheik. The Taliban do not want women to be educated, this is not based on the Koran, but later teachings by Islamic zealots.