A Challeng to ATS's most brilliant Mathamaticians

reply to post by TiM3LoRd


Your avatar could hold the answer. What about using the yin yang?


It's simple and could represent a mixing of cultures.

reply to post by NeutronAvenger


Are you advertising for Mc'Donalds? Seriously?

(Don't care about the 'joke')

Originally posted by ChicUFO
Looking at the Voyager golden record, I am completely lost. I can't understand what the symbols mean. I'm sure that well educated people or advanced aliens wouldn't have any problem with it but I hope to find something a little easier to understand.

I'm not sure the aliens or even well educated Earthlings would understand all of it. But if you're curious here's what it means.
Voyager Golden Record Cover Explanation

Trying to tell someone how to decode a video signal is no small feat. And the little thing that looks like a dumbell on the lower right is supposed to be a hydrogen atom, I would have tried to at least make the electron look smaller than the proton, I'm not sure why they're the same size??

The Arecibo message seems to be even harder for the aliens to understand, but I think it's worthwhile to study it at least to see what some smart people (Frank Drake, Carl Sagan, and I think others) came up with for how to send a message to aliens. I think they had the right idea showing a binary representation of a numbering system, but their implementation is confusing to me. They included an extra character for the least significant digit marker. That would only confuse me if I didn't already know what it means, I think I could figure it out better without that if I was an alien that didn't know what it meant initially.

Arecibo message-Numbers

The planets part they might get, that shows we are on the third planet from our sun, but there's no guarantee they'd get that:

Arecibo message-Planets

Perhaps the simplest to understand message is the Pioneer plaque:

Pioneer plaque

That diagram of our solar system is the clearest communication of all to me, and it shows the third planet as the receiver of the spacecraft's signals. And of course you'll recognize the drawing of the man and woman.

But without sending a plaque into space, we are stuck with sending something like the Arecibo signal I linked above. And I think those are really hard to decode, it's not that easy to make them simple.I think we are counting on the aliens to be much smarter than we are to be able to figure out what we meant, but they may not figure it all out.

Regarding the graphic of the UFO landing pad, one thing I'd do if I had more time to spend on it, is make it very clear that the circle being represented (as an ellipse due to perspective) is actually the landing pad. The border of the pad has a rather unique alternating red and white pattern and I would draw that in detail on the ellipse perspective representation to make if clear that's what the image is referring to.

You have a point that we don't know what their ship might look like and maybe we shouldn't assume what it looks like, but without some kind of representation of a craft I'm not sure the message is clear. Perhaps some kind of composite of the UFO drawings and photos over the years as our best guess would be better than nothing even if it's inaccurate. If it doesn't look like any terrestrial craft, they might get the idea even if it's not an exact match. Making it look sort of generic might help too, the image I used is a little too specific but it's just something I had handy to show the concept.

By the way here's a whole article on what you're looking for:

Communication with Extraterrestrial Intelligence

It mentions the pictorial communications we've been discussing, as well as some mathematical methods, but I think the mathematical methods limit what can be communicated as I mentioned earlier.

[edit on 30-7-2010 by Arbitrageur]

reply to post by Arbitrageur


That is the best and most informative post yet. I will be reading all the info and attempting to put together something that may work.

I believe that any alien species that could possibly be visiting would be able to pick up our television and radio signals. I would think that they would study them even if they could not decipher our languages. I believe that by sending out a signal like the one I proposed earlier, the aliens could combine the information and understand the meaning. The design of the landing pad should be an extension of the signal sent out.

Thanks again for the great links.

reply to post by ChicUFO


I think, in terms of symbols and maths, the mod's idea comes closest. I think your idea of the camera moving towards earth and down to the landing pad is probably the best one so far though. It would almost certainly not be misunderstood, and then the only issue is what the landing pad should look like. I don't think that is much of an issue though - just a white circular pad would surely suffice.

You mention how colours could mean different things to them, but don't forget that if they got here, they can't be stupid. They would almost certainly bare in mind the same things we are - that simple things can be interpreted in different ways by different cultures. So even if red does mean 'bomb here' to them, they wouldn't likely do it.

Of course, you could go the other way and put in lots of rainbows and unicorns and people hugging and skipping hand-in-hand into the sunset - all together, that's bound to be taken positively

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by ChicUFO
reply to post by TiM3LoRd

 

I believe that you are correct, the point is moot. Thanks for all the replies but I have to agree with most of your posts that there is no answer to this question.

The reason there's no answer is the way you phrased the question. Actually if you rephrase the question slightly I think there's an answer.

Instead of asking

Originally posted by ChicUFO
My challenge to the members of ATS is to create a set of mathematical symbols that would basically say something like "Welcome, Please land here."

just drop the part about mathematical symbols and ask how we can communicate something like "Welcome, Please land here."

The example I would cite is the cover of the Voyager golden record:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d907f784f834.jpg[/atsimg]

There isn't really math involved in these symbols intended to communicate with aliens. They are just pictorial representations of things we'd like the aliens to understand like a star map showing our location, how to play the phonograph record, etc.

Or another example is the safety card for a 737:


That communicates in pictures without language where to look for the life preserver, how to put it on, etc, which is a fairly detailed instruction.

So without using any math, just communicate images. One possibility would to show "welcome" might be a person with outstretched arms which is sort of a universal welcome symbol on Earth but that may not be understood by aliens, so the welcome part is hard. But "land here" is easy. Show two frames in sequence, the first a disk hovering above the landing pad, and the second shows the disk landed on the landing pad. This is just a rough sketch, not trying to show off my artistic skills

But the top image shows the existing UFO landing pad with the "U" on it.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a0d1eb1410e0.jpg[/atsimg]

To do what you want without mathematical symbols, I'd paint it with something along the lines of the bottom sketch, but with better artistry (like I'd show if I had more time to spend on it).
It's supposed to say something like, "descend here, land, and be welcomed".

On a ligher note, we wouldn't want to use any scary mathematical formulas and run the risk of frightening our offworld friends away.

Take this scary safety card for a 747:

Originally posted by ChicUFO
My challenge to the members of ATS is to create a set of mathematical symbols that would basically say something like "Welcome, Please land here."

Why get into complex mathematical symbols for landing instructions? A simple sketch would do the job, like....

The problem I have with your motivation is the same one I have with UFO
enthusiasm. Evidence of this phenomena shows a simple message written
in mathematical terms to riddle the intelligence of God. Simply would not interest them. They don't seem to need an invite. Any enthusiasm for
something you havn't got a clue about, is dangerous in the most foolish of ways. Just a reminder not to get so sucked into this stuff. I've seen these
things on more than one occassion. Forget benvolence, that is not there mission.

How about just beaming this into space:

Land Here!

No math needed. Of course, I recommend we substitute the OP's home or backyard instead of this poor sap's in Aussieland...

reply to post by Outrageo


That is actually the type of signal I thought would work best. As far as using my back yard goes, I live in the US. I don't think there is anywhere in the USA that is far enough away from the military or a missile silo to make a safe landing area.

Edit:
Where did you find that video?

[edit on 30-7-2010 by ChicUFO]

reply to post by ChicUFO


There are many such earth zoom-in videos/animations available now - especially since Google Earth came on the scene.

You can find a bunch of them here...

I am not an expert but I will interject here...



Its not you but the environment you grew up in. It has kinda blinded you to some of the necessities you need to accomplish your goal.

First so far you are assuming a similarity to what you are use to.

Not all life will use the same methods we do. We are primarily an organism that relies upon one sense primarily, sight with the other four preforming as sub senses.

For the basic part first your universal language will be affected by the following...

Stimulus
Processing of stimulus
physical parts

This is very hard to communicate because there are so many possibilities that it is unreal. It can be done though...

Sight based
Sound Based
Touch based
Smell based
taste based

Combinations of the above affect communication. This is what the limited human selves are at

you have with in this combination how you process the information.

Primaries with secondaries....

I will stay out of the range of psi function and stick to this. The savants and those with brain damage show unused functions that should be taught...
(yes they can)

not to mention what is considered social deviation and un-holy



now with all this in mind stack some new possibilities.
more functions to add

telepathy's various possibilities
cybernetic

you name it, there is so many possibilities

processing functions differently can also have people using all at once,

synthesia, how do you communicate the smell of the rainbow, or the feel of Pi....

with all this in mind the first thing to start this is this...

your first understanding must be this....

life-
something to exist in
something to consume( to power itself )
something to be made of

these are the only three requirements

next step you did add one thing, wanting to communicate...

assumptions are deadly



have a way to attempt construction of a common series of gestalts that both species can use. The best is to find one that want to communicate and the two build a communication system...

I have always wondered if some animals are tolerating us...

reply to post by ripcontrol


Your post shows that you are seriously considering the possibilities of communicating with an alien species for that I thank you. Ideas and thoughts are what will help create a functional method to relay a message.

First so far you are assuming a similarity to what you are use to.

Not all life will use the same methods we do. We are primarily an organism that relies upon one sense primarily, sight with the other four preforming as sub senses.

In order to even think about making contact there are a thousand things that have to be assumed. We start with the assumption that the aliens are real and work from there. I assume that they want to make contact, I assume that an alien might actually land at the base and, I assume that a race capable of traveling to Earth from a distant star, would be intelligent enough to attempt contact at our level.

One of my favorite people in recent history is Dian Fossey. Fossey spent years living with mountain gorillas in the wild. She became part of the group and because of that, she learned more about the species than anyone ever imagined. Dian Fossey didn't try to communicate with them in sign or any other "foreign" language, she adapted to their own method of communication. I assume that an alien species would do the same with our primitive species.

have a way to attempt construction of a common series of gestalts that both species can use.

Before I ever came to ATS, I spent more than a year researching the idea of a base to make first contact. I thought about how we might communicate with them.

Jonathan Vos Post
The above link is the best representation of how to speak with an alien. I have posted this link on my earlier thread.

I am not sure that math is the way to communicate with them. Perhaps sending a telepathic message would work. As for the landing pad, it has to accomodate them, do you know their needs. The amount of space needed, who should be there and not be there, how would they feel about the presence of computers and cameras? And how are you going to keep the Govt from interfering with them, that may be a fear they have of us and the reason hey haven't made their presence more pronounced. Any thoughts on these topics?

reply to post by crazydaisy


I pretty much covered all of those topics in my first thread.

Center for Human Initiated Communications

Unfortunately, that thread, like this one, was the subject of ridicule. People seem to believe that aliens are real but they are vehemently opposed to any idea of contact that does not include ESP. Since the human race is not familiar with the use of ESP, I do not believe that we should attempt that method. We can not expect to communicate on the aliens level, if they are so advanced. It would stand to reason that they would have no problem communicating on our level, like Dian Fossey and the gorillas.

I'd settle for something like this...

Clear and compact easy to set up in minutes- a completely political correct landing spot. No need for those pesky mathematics. Alienlot(c) says it all.




How about that Jim.

Great! Even my mom can lure aliens now.

And that is not all Jim, if you order your alienlot(c) now, you get a second one for free. Thats right Jim, double your change on contact in one great deal.

Order your's now!

(this product comes with a lifetime not good money gone warranty)

Originally posted by ChicUFO
reply to post by D.Wolf

 

Thanks for your post, it proves the point of my previous post. Any attempt to communicate with an alien species is ridiculed by believers and skeptics alike.

One is glad to be of service.

[edit on 31/7/10 by D.Wolf]

reply to post by D.Wolf


Thanks for your post, it proves the point of my previous post. Any attempt to communicate with an alien species is ridiculed by believers and skeptics alike.

Originally posted by ChicUFO
My example using the already posted landing pad

What's with all the pretty colours? Perhaps aliens are colour blind or perceive light in a completely different way.

IRM

reply to post by InfaRedMan


I just used what I could find as an example. Getting together a realistic diagram is what this thread is about. I hope that people can work toward figuring out a set of symbols or a design that most of us could agree with.

Originally posted by __rich__
There is one universal symbol....

Basically a circle with a line going through it.

This is the general idea:



emptyeasel.com...

I still think mine is obviously the best.

Think about it...sugar and fat with a cylindrical graphite core.

The implications are there...