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He is the worlds leading climatologist - planetologist - and was the head of NASA and advisor to several presidents - he the worlds foremost authority on the issue.
Originally posted by rozetta
reply to post by tauristercus
Great post! I forwarded it to a friend of mine who has some theories about the Earth's past.
P.S. Don't believe everything you read in New Scientist, etc. - those publications have an agenda and are often incredibly inaccurate, on purpose.
During the antediluvian period (4026 B. C. E. to 2345 B. C. E.) there was a universal warm climate over the whole planet totally different to that which we know today.
The Earth at this time spun on an almost perpendicular axis and was surrounded by a great vapor and ice-crystal canopy. This of course was the Antediluvian Veil through which all light shone, causing perpetual summer over the whole planet. There was no rain, no sun, no moon, no rainbow, no storms or winds, no reasons (as we know them), no great oceans or seas and man lived far longer than now.
This veil or canopy was none other than 'the waters above the expanse' recorded in Genesis 1:7, the 'crystalline firmament' mentioned in the first paragraph of chapter one, book one of Josephus' historical work 'Antiquities of the Jews' and the 'sky' help up by Atlas.
...Then came the Noachian Deluge. A surviving Mayan document, the book of 'Chilam Balaam' tell us:
"During the Eleventh Ahau Cantoun it occurred...when the Earth began to waken. And a fiery rain fell, and ashes fell, and rocks and trees fell down. And their Great Serpent was ravished from the heavens. And then, in one watery blow, came the waters, the sky fell down and the dry land sank. And in a moment the great annihilation was finished."
...The action which caused the breaking of the Great Canopy was the sudden movement of the Earth's axis from it's original perpendicular position to an angle of 26.5 degrees. This occurred in the year 2345 B. C. E. from which during the interval of the succeeding 3194 years, it returned to an equilibrium at the present inclination of 23.5 degrees by the year 1850. C. E.
This movement of the planet also affected the length of the year from 360 days antediluvian, to the 365.25 post-diluvian, which also suggests a possible shift in the Earth's orbit.
This results from the fact that there is a slow change in what is called the obliquity of the ecliptic - that is, the angle between the plane of the earth's equator and the plane of the ecliptic; this change is brought about by the attraction of the other planetary bodies affecting the plane of the ecliptic. If these planes approach each other, the obliquity will be reduced; the present obliquity is something like 23* 27'; we know that 5000B.C. it was 24* 22', nearly a degree more. A difference of 1* means, then, a difference of time of about seven thousand years. It may go down to something below 21*. ...
Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Essan
Maybe someone better versed in Egyptology can help me out but now that you mention it, Dodwell seems to have been relying upon some questionable information. He mentions "King Amen Emhat" (Amenemhat) as laying the foundation for the temple of Amon Re in 2045B.C. The trouble with that is that Amenemhat was not alive in 2045 B.C. and any work he did at Karnak did not survive (other than some statues).
That kind of messes up the curve doesn't it?
Oh my goodness. Stonehenge dated at 350 B.C.?
That seems just a bit too recent doesn't it. Even the most recent construction at Stonehenge is dated at 1600 B.C. The placement of the sarsen stones has been carbon dated in the neighborhood of 2500 BC. That seems to correspond pretty closely to the Lieske calculation.
I suppose Dodwell's "event" could have occurred after Stonehenge was built but it would seem to make the cyclical occurrence problematic.
Originally posted by TiM3LoRd
That was indeed an awesome and impressive post. Unfortunately my maths sux. Could someone dumb it down for me? Are we saying the earths axis revolves a lot faster than previously suspected and what possible impact would that have? Again sorry for my ignorance.
Originally posted by epsilon69
reply to post by tauristercus
i have a question about your chart. In the chart you list the observed angles of the earth. AT the bottom of that chart it says that someone at the Temple of Amen Ra in Karnak observed the angle of the earth. I would like to know how he left this data for us to find and can we be sure on the date that is left. If we are receiving this date based on a theory from an egyptologist then i am truely skeptical on the credibility of that measurement.
Originally posted by Essan
reply to post by epsilon69
A good point
What evidence is there that the Egyptians who erected the Karnak gnomon were aware of any axial tilt?
Maybe that's why it was wrong?
Originally posted by nataylor
I noticed a couple errors. First, the centuries used in the calculations are Julian centuries (36525 days), not 100 years.
Second, the Lieske formula is not the one currently used by the International Astronomical Union. They recommend ε = 84381.448 − 46.84024T − (59 × 10^-5)T^2 + (1.813 × 10^-3)T^3.
Third, the formulas (including Lieske's) only produce a linear trend in the near-term:
www.tenspheres.com...
You'll note that all the models are in good agreement +/- 6000 years.
The mean date, taken from a number of recent Egyptological works (Cambridge Ancient History, Breasted, Budge, etc.) places the commencement of the XII Dynasty at about 2050 B.C., and I have adopted 2045 B.C. as the date of the foundation of the earliest part of the Karnak Temple of Amen Ra.
www.odysseyadventures.ca...
The temple at Karnak was known as Ipet-esut (‘Most Select of Places’). No one knows for certain when the earliest one was built but it seems likely that there was at least a shrine there during the Old Kingdom if not before. Like most Egyptian temples, it was oriented towards the river—in this case, it faced roughly east. By New Kingdom times, however, there was a second avenue of approach, from the north where the sanctuary of Mut and the Luxor Temple were situated. It is so far unknown whether or not this alternate axis was present in earlier periods
Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by tauristercus
[At Karnak, Dodwell]...seems to use a certain amount of circular logic. ... and employs the same sort of circular logic [at Stonehenge]. Starting with an incorrect date, he "proves" that the data fits his curve. ....
Thirteen models for numerical expressions for General Precession and Obliquity of the Ecliptic are examined for long-term validity, and only seven of them found worthy to consider in this sense. Among these seven models, only two (La86 and B03) seem to be more accurate and meticulously framed than the others, and one (W94) is theoretically remarkable. Among the four models, which appeared after the IAU 2000 resolutions, B03 seems to be the only referable one for long-term applications. Yet, it seems quite possible that a more precise model can be developed in the future, by merging the theories of Laskar and Williams, and applying the new VLBI and LLR results, to build accurate numerical expressions for precession and the obliquity, which can be valid for a few ten thousand years.
Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by tauristercus
In reading Dodwell's explanations certain fudge factors appear which help to back up his hypothesis.
In the case of Karnak he seems to use a certain amount of circular logic. He rejected Lockyer because Lockyer came up with a date of 3,700 BC and he did select the date himself (erroneously, based on an erroneous date for the start of the 12th dynasty):
The mean date, taken from a number of recent Egyptological works (Cambridge Ancient History, Breasted, Budge, etc.) places the commencement of the XII Dynasty at about 2050 B.C., and I have adopted 2045 B.C. as the date of the foundation of the earliest part of the Karnak Temple of Amen Ra.
So, since the temple must have been constructed to line up with the summer solstice and 2045BC hits his curve then it must have been constructed in 2045BC, showing that his curve is correct. The earliest construction at Karnak apparently did occur at some time during the 11th dynasty (according to some texts of the time). But if there was a temple there there at that time there is no longer any evidence of it. It was not until Amenemhat that any of the existing remnants were built. Apparently it wasn't until later in the 12th dynasty that Amun Ra really took on any importance.
www.odysseyadventures.ca...
The temple at Karnak was known as Ipet-esut (‘Most Select of Places’). No one knows for certain when the earliest one was built but it seems likely that there was at least a shrine there during the Old Kingdom if not before. Like most Egyptian temples, it was oriented towards the river—in this case, it faced roughly east. By New Kingdom times, however, there was a second avenue of approach, from the north where the sanctuary of Mut and the Luxor Temple were situated. It is so far unknown whether or not this alternate axis was present in earlier periods
So, even if we do assume that the later construction was intended to be aligned with the solstice, it would move the data point several hundred years to the right, far from Dodwell's curve.
In the case of Stonehenge he is just wrong (the entire history he quotes is wrong in light of modern research) and employs the same sort of circular logic. Starting with an incorrect date, he "proves" that the data fits his curve.
But the alignment of Stonehenge is very close fit to the calculated value for 2500BC (the currently accepted age), only 4 arcminutes off (less than 1/10º).