Pre-Cambrian mass extinction/ ENUMA ELISH

Hi ATS

Well, what an interesting morning of speculation. This thread is a composite of my ideas from the two posts I've made so far today on the glorious "Ancient & Lost Civilisations" forum. Here's the gist:

1) The Enuma Elsih ties in beautifully with a couple of accepted theories as to the reason for the Pre-Cambrian mass extinction of 250 million years ago. I'm thinking of a global temperature increase of tens of degrees within a few thousands of years, and enough planetary stress to induce the rending of the Siberian Steppes - cumulatively leading to the eradication of 95% of life on Earth. Anyone who doesn't know about the Enuma Elish, I'll expand a bit in the next post.

2) Any evidence of truly advanced ANCIENT civilisations may well have been removed due to holocaust of global proportions, though (crucially) NOT caused by conventional nuclear weaponry (hence, not leaving tell-tale radioactive evidence). This is an offshoot of the idea that civilisation is cyclical, and that 'human nature' (or controversially, divine intervention) tends to lead us to destruction.

3) Ancient humans/ pre-humans/ advanced reptilians may have emigrated off-world many millions of years ago. This is the optimistic alternative to no' 2...

Now hold your horses all ye debunkers and sceptical masters, for just one moment. I'm not claiming any of this as fact - it's an exercise in imagination and possibility. I don't for one minute expect to be able to substantiate any of the above with hard archaeological fact. I'm just curious about whether any of it could have been possible, and if so - what sort of evidence/ indications might we expect to find of such things..?

All of this has been sparked from the idea that something incredible appears to have been found, in the form of evidence that goldmining took place 200k years ago in South Africa - at the moment in time when 'Mitochondrial Eve' DNA first appeared.

So basically, the very minute we (seem to have) developed vocal chords and certain other advanced characteristics, raising us from 'smart animal' to 'human', we started to mine gold. Maybe we just liked the look of it or something.

Once again, I stress the hypotheticals at this stage. I haven't validated the source material yet, and the nature of it is such that as far as I know, 'reputable/mainstream' archaeologists/geologists/anthropologists have not yet visited the site in question. The thread I started from is linked below:

ATS thread on 220k yr old S African goldmining operation


I would love to know whether:

a) Anyone else thinks that the Enuma Elish may have been related by 'visitors' regarding the events behind the Pre-Cambrian mass extinction.

b) Anyone can provide any unbiased - (ie not sceptical or hyper-believing) source material regarding the 'Mitochondrial Eve' theory and associated scientific/ speculative anthropological info.

c) Anyone can relate any legends of mass human/ near-human/ pre-human exodus from the planet we call home.

d) Anyone has any other ideas in any way related to the above that will enhance the imaginative exercise..


And once again - I don't claim any of this as fact, so please don't trash it. I am simply curious and enjoy firing up my imagination. As I said on another thread this morning - if Asimov can do it, so can I.


Thanks - look forward to hopefully stirring up some discussion!


Noah.


EDIT - spelling/ formatting



[edit on 26-7-2010 by NoahTheSumerian]

This idea almost sounds like a BattleStar Galactica episode!

really though, I wouldn't discount it. An additional theoretical idea on this is that the Annanuki left behind one of thier own to guide this new creation and help it develope, as the comparison between the Elohim and the Annanuki has been previously made, and that Yahwe is the same as Enki, so that it will have survived long enough to be present for when the Annanuki return.

As for actual humans departing from this place, I don't know, I think that all the previous cyclic cataclysms of previous times destroyed most of mankind and that a certain remnant was actually salvaged by Enki, to repopulate the place afterwards.

reply to post by NoahTheSumerian
Hiya Noah.

There's one or two initial problems with your speculation. I'm not here to spoil your thread, but it's worth pointing out a couple of inaccuracies. They're probably a direct result of trusting your 'alternative history' books...those guys rarely check facts. It's quite possible they just make stuff up if it sounds cool.

Pre-Cambrian is the extremely long period of Earth's history (80% iirc) when basic life began (prokaryotes etc). Pretty much, it's day 1 on the calender up until about 500mya. The extinction events your writers mean are the Permian-Triassic events of 250mya. These wiped out a lot of life on land and in sea. Basically, life at this time was a hell-fest with volcanoes, greenhouse gasses, global warming and possible asteroid impact events. Lotta destruction. Makes me shudder to imagine how bad that must have been...

We have a fair idea about these events because the archealogical record (fossils, ice cores etc) show a period of lots of life followed by very little life. So we have rich deposits of marine molluscs, fish, various dinosaurs and plant life. The ice cores show the composition of the atmosphere and tell us about what the air was like and how polluted it was. They even indicate how much plant life there might have been due to pollen spores. Lots of evidence coming from very different fields of study.

What we don't have, in amongst all this evidence, are the remains of upright humans or signs of any technology at all. The ice core samples haven't revealed signatures of foundries blowing smoke into the ancient air of Earth. Without this evidence, it's rather hard to imagine an advanced, technological society hiding in the gaps.

reply to post by Kandinsky


That's a fair comment Kandinsky - thanks for the pointers. In honesty, I haven't read up on any theories similar to my thoughts about the 'Enuma Elish as mass extinction event of 250mya'. I saw a documentary the other night ('The Day The Earth Nearly Died') which prompted the comparison in my mind, though it wasn't made in the doc itself.

I suppose that the idea of advanced human(oid) races being wiped out by mega-destructive weaponry can be rationally discredited, but I'd be interested to know your thoughts on whether any weapons exist (or are theorised) today that would leave no discernible imprint in the geological record? I know there's a 'dead zone' in the record just after the 8-10k years within which the Pre-Cambrian mass extinction event is posited to have taken place. I'm not suggesting such a weapon was utilised in that epoch btw

Any thoughts on whether a destructive device (at any other point in history, not necessarily global but perhaps on a mid-sized continental scale) could have devastated a technologically advanced society (perhaps one living in harmony with environment, hence no over-population or extraneous migration patterns) and left no trace, other than a minor dead zone in the locale.. H-Bombs? Antimatter devices?

RE: The migration of species to another world - I know that there are some random theories flying about saying that Mars used to be populated by humans/humanoids - and some say it still is...'Twilight Zone WWWOOOOOOoooooohhhhhHH'.

I simply wonder whether any legends (other than the Sitchin ideas commonly held to be exaggerations/mistranslations/fraudulent) exist regarding the migration of 'people' throughout the solar system and beyond..? NB - I generally don't read too many of the 'kooky' researchers - I've only actually given serious consideration to Sitchin in respect to the 'alien astronauts' theories; in particular, I avoid Hoagland and Icke like the plague

However, I sometimes enjoy browsing on Mars Anomaly Research for a bit of fun! The guy who runs that site is a classic.


Thanks also Megiddodiddo - funnily enough, when I was writing this I had the impression of a universal Deity (capital 'D' for transcendence) forming worlds, guiding advanced races as hands and feet for the task, shifting them around like chess pieces on a board. It reminded me of an episode of Stargate Universe where the crew slingshot around a beautiful, virgin world - one without rational basis for its existence. They realise that it almost seems to have been created with foreknowledge, and left there for them to find and colonise, to save them the agony of trying to get home to Earth...

Love to play that tune!


Noah.

I think I can give you a good answer since I work in a paleontology lab and am also an anthropologist.

Originally posted by NoahTheSumerian
1) The Enuma Elsih ties in beautifully with a couple of accepted theories as to the reason for the Pre-Cambrian mass extinction of 250 million years ago.

I don't believe we're reading the same version of the Enuma Elish. Also, 250 million years ago was not the Cambrian period -- it would have been the boundary between the Permian and Triassic periods:
en.wikipedia.org...

I'm thinking of a global temperature increase of tens of degrees within a few thousands of years, and enough planetary stress to induce the rending of the Siberian Steppes - cumulatively leading to the eradication of 95% of life on Earth.

The Siberian traps and Emeishan traps "basaltic flood events" (supervolcanos) lasted for at least a million years each and are thought to be a factor in the reduction of oxygen in the atmosphere (the "rusting out" of the atmosphere.) If memory serves, the Siberian steppes never get torn apart; they're part of a single crustal block.
en.wikipedia.org...

2) Any evidence of truly advanced ANCIENT civilisations may well have been removed due to holocaust of global proportions, though (crucially) NOT caused by conventional nuclear weaponry (hence, not leaving tell-tale radioactive evidence). This is an offshoot of the idea that civilisation is cyclical, and that 'human nature' (or controversially, divine intervention) tends to lead us to destruction.

The huge problem with this is that humans don't wake up one morning and say "I'm tired of being chased by lions and tigers and bears. I'm going to invent the Panzer tank and get rid of all this inconvenient flora and fauna." They would gradually develop, leaving lots and lots of traces (chipped flints and then mines for minerals and piles or garbage heaps (this is how we find traces of humans, you know)) and then eventually paved roads (transport) and so on and so forth.

3) Ancient humans/ pre-humans/ advanced reptilians may have emigrated off-world many millions of years ago. This is the optimistic alternative to no' 2...

We have a lot of evidence about what life was like back then. I work around it in the paleo lab.

I'm just curious about whether any of it could have been possible, and if so - what sort of evidence/ indications might we expect to find of such things..?

Well, the first thing we would have found is that Humans and their important food crops and food animals would have survived the event and done just fine. This was a slow extinction (millions of years) with 2-3 distinct peaks and any creature with high levels of technology could have found ways of dealing with it. Important food crops and animals would have been modified and farmed so that the survival of everything was ensured. An advanced civilization would be very aware of the problems of lack of biodiversity, so we would not have seen as great a die-off as we did.

For instance, we have zoos and cryogenically preserved ova and sperm right now. If there was a huge extinction event that happened in a blink of an eye, we could recover many species from these labs. If Yellowstone blew up right now, it'd affect most of the US immediately but Great Britain and Europe and Russia and Africa and Australia wouldn't have as drastic an impact... they'd still have electricity and scientists and cars and trucks and so forth.

All of this has been sparked from the idea that something incredible appears to have been found, in the form of evidence that goldmining took place 200k years ago in South Africa - at the moment in time when 'Mitochondrial Eve' DNA first appeared.

There's no evidence that gold was mined back then. I read paleo and archaeological journals, and such evidence would be front page news.

So basically, the very minute we (seem to have) developed vocal chords and certain other advanced characteristics, raising us from 'smart animal' to 'human', we started to mine gold. Maybe we just liked the look of it or something.

As opposed to communications about finding better ways of fending off animals ("OMG! It's Gastornis! RUN!!!"), dealing with climate changes that forced groups to enter each others' hunting territories ("Play nice with me, Joe, and I'll share my beer"), and changes in the types of animals available to eat and hunt and run away from ("OMG! Uintatherium stampede!!! RUN!!!!!)? We don't see piles of gold buried with bodies from back then or gold hoards or anything indicating they used or collected the mineral.

Once again, I stress the hypotheticals at this stage. I haven't validated the source material yet, and the nature of it is such that as far as I know, 'reputable/mainstream' archaeologists/geologists/anthropologists have not yet visited the site in question.

They have.

I would love to know whether:

a) Anyone else thinks that the Enuma Elish may have been related by 'visitors' regarding the events behind the Pre-Cambrian mass extinction.

b) Anyone can provide any unbiased - (ie not sceptical or hyper-believing) source material regarding the 'Mitochondrial Eve' theory and associated scientific/ speculative anthropological info.

c) Anyone can relate any legends of mass human/ near-human/ pre-human exodus from the planet we call home.

d) Anyone has any other ideas in any way related to the above that will enhance the imaginative exercise..

a) no (and the dates and eras are wrong... sorry.)
b) there's all sorts of DNA evidence easily obtainable through Google. It's dry and scientific and involves base pairs and worse but it's there.
c) the only legends involve climbing up through a previous world into this one.
d) Sure! Come out to an archaeological dig or a paleontological dig sometime (there's ways of finding them) and start learning about science and humans and history. I can guarantee you that you'll be fascinated, and (if you like digging in dirt for hours on end (I do!)) it's a really cool and fun thing to do! And oh, will you learn a LOT from the other people on the digs!

[edit on 26-7-2010 by Byrd]

reply to post by Byrd


Okay Byrd - thanks for your input. Let me just make the point that I've only recently started thinking about this sort of stuff, and by trade I'm a writer, so a lack of imagination would be quite inconvenient to me. I thought I'd made it clear that I'm posing open questions about ideas - not theories. As far as I was aware, the mass extinction was Pre-Cambrian. Kandinsky's input re: the dates threw me off-track a little, and I hadn't checked whether we were reading from the same hymn sheet.

So anyway - I get that my facts were a little askew, and will ignore the pedantic pointing out of that particular fact; however -

d) Sure! Come out to an archaeological dig or a paleontological dig sometime (there's ways of finding them) and start learning about science and humans and history.

is just bloody rude.

There's no need to be so goddamn patronising. I don't have a full university education (due to personal circumstances) but I've an IQ of 145, hence I'm not an idiot.

Here in the UK I started geology and biology A levels ten years ago with a view to becoming a paleontologist - since I never finished them and didn't go into uni I didn't fully qualify my general understandings, and have long since ceased any actual focused study in those areas. I'm a generalist, by nature of my work these days.

I stand rebuked that I should do my research more fully (in particular re: the steppes and dating of the mass extinction) before starting a thread. Please consider yourself similarly rebuked for being so bloody rude. Your tone of reply (which I've seen many times over in several forums) is why ATS is so damn frustrating to non-specialists at times.

Noah.



PS - I'll have a rethink about the original points laid out in my opening post before making my next response. If anyone who wanted to say anything hasn't been put off completely by Byrd's presence on the thread, please throw down your thoughts - I'll appreciate them even if the ATS intelligentsia don't.

EDIT - for clarity of a point, and to tone down my frustrations.

[edit on 26-7-2010 by NoahTheSumerian]

reply to post by Byrd


Hi byrd

The Siberian traps and Emeishan traps "basaltic flood events" (supervolcanos) lasted for at least a million years each

I also had a million year time period in my head, but I read just recently about the Siberian traps that only lasted for about a 100.000 years.

The final stages of the Permian saw two flood basalt events. A small one, Emeishan Traps in China, occurred at the same time as the end-Guadalupian extinction pulse, in an area which was close to the equator at the time.[87][88] The flood basalt eruptions which produced the Siberian Traps constituted one of the largest known volcanic events on Earth and covered over 2,000,000 square kilometers (772,204.3 sq mi) with lava.[89][90][91] The Siberian Traps eruptions were formerly thought to have lasted for millions of years, but recent research dates them to 251.2 ± 0.3 Ma — immediately before the end of the Permian.[2][92]

Source. Wiki.

Originally posted by NoahTheSumerian
I get that my facts were a little askew, and will ignore the pedantic pointing out of that particular fact; however -

d) Sure! Come out to an archaeological dig or a paleontological dig sometime (there's ways of finding them) and start learning about science and humans and history.

is just bloody rude.

There's no need to be so goddamn patronising. I don't have a full university education (due to personal circumstances) but I've an IQ of 145, hence I'm not an idiot.

This is typical of you Noah. Pretend to be interested and attack anyone that shows how wrong you are.

Byrd tells you, in a very polite way (as is always the case with Byrd, amazingly,) that you actually need to learn something and you act like someone slapped your face and stole your wife.

Perhaps Byrd will now opt to do as I have done and simply stop correcting your outrageous claims to avoid being called names or avoid the discomfort of being embarassed for you because of your behavior.

You'd like that, silencing an actual expert in the field so that you can pimp your hero Sitchin undisturbed.

With your high IQ, one might expect that you'd come up with something more creative to label me rather than the boring "Government disinfo agent" label you consistently try and put on me. Maybe, if Byrd deigns to respond to anything else you say, you could put a little more effort into your slander, for her sake?

Lastly, Mitochondrial Eve in no way represents the dawn of our species, and the 200,000 year old site in the thread you linked is almost certainly less than 2,000 years old.

Harte

there is proof that men were metalurgists along time ago before we would think that they knew anything of tin and copper and gold!

sorry i forgot to mention bronze aswell



[edit on 26-7-2010 by metalholic]

Originally posted by NoahTheSumerian
reply to post by Byrd

 

Okay Byrd - thanks for your input. Let me just make the point that I've only recently started thinking about this sort of stuff, and by trade I'm a writer, so a lack of imagination would be quite inconvenient to me. I thought I'd made it clear that I'm posing open questions about ideas - not theories. As far as I was aware, the mass extinction was Pre-Cambrian.

There were five major extinctions and a number of minor ones.

d) Sure! Come out to an archaeological dig or a paleontological dig sometime (there's ways of finding them) and start learning about science and humans and history.

is just bloody rude.

I'm sorry you viewed it as that. I love going to digs and invite friends whenever I get a chance. I also talk about open digs during archaeology month because they're so much fun and because you can go and learn a lot about sites and methods.

I stand rebuked that I should do my research more fully (in particular re: the steppes and dating of the mass extinction) before starting a thread. Please consider yourself similarly rebuked for being so bloody rude. Your tone of reply (which I've seen many times over in several forums) is why ATS is so damn frustrating to non-specialists at times.

Well, I do apologize if you took it that way, because it wasn't meant to be haughty or superior. I certainly don't have an IQ of 145, and folks correct me all the time when I don't check my work.

However, if you'd like to discuss your ideas WITHOUT fact checkers and archaeologists (there's at least 2 more lurking around), then let me suggest that you ask for it to be moved to Skunk Works. That's a great place, where people test out ideas and skeptics, in general, avoid it.

To have it moved, U2U me or another moderator in charge of this forum and we'll be glad to shift it there.

Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
I also had a million year time period in my head, but I read just recently about the Siberian traps that only lasted for about a 100.000 years.

Argh! Whoops! Good catch!

I guess that I think of them lasting longer because of the huge output of the volcano field. While I haven't read in depth on this extinction event, it's one of two that I find interesting (the other one is the K-T boundary).

Okay... one of three. There's also the Holocene extinction.

I think the big charm here is the fascination of so much oxygen rusting out of the atmosphere.

Byrd rude? What an odd thought

I would suggest reading a basic book on archaeology. I'd recommend:

Any of the introductory books by Fagan or Webster and a somewhat older book but an excellent source for those in the need, Archaeology: The Key Concepts (Routledge Key Guides) by Colin Renfrew, and Paul Bahn.

I would also note that I read an Archaeological '101' book every two years as a way to keeping up with the latest updates and how the pedological aspect of archaeology are playing out.

Oh and burn the Sitchin you'll do a lot better without his influence.

Firstly, my apologies to Byrd for my somewhat over-sensitive response.

Secondly; a fine point was raised - as this is a thread dealing entirely with speculation, Skunk Works (shudder) would be the best place for it.

Thirdly - after reading Byrd's post and making my irate reply, I realised I was 'out of order' to be so defensive - when essentially it was my big FAIL to post a thread without doing even the preliminaries of research.

So in all - I consider myself well and truly humbled, and will make efforts to research more fully in future. I do have a keen interest in geology, anthropology, paleontology etc, but due to the way my life has worked out, I've lost any true scholarly focus I ever possessed.

The one good thing to come from this is that I have a new-found sense of commitment to pursuing the facts and perhaps even towards some sort of specialism related to my former interests. I started doing an Open Uni degree a few years back relating to my employment - BEng (Hons) - but due to redundancy put it on the shelf. I can reclassify it as and when I pick it up again, and will probably start preparing to do so fairly soon.

Look forward to continued input and discussion - though not on this thread!

NB - Good call about burning Sitchin. Think I may just do that; I own about five of his books - it's probably worth starting the whole paleoanthropology thing from scratch.

Noah.

PS - the 145 IQ score is based on completion of Mensa testing aged 15. No idea whether it's strictly accurate now. Hopefully the remark didn't make me sound like an pretentious ****...