Time travel theory avoids grandfather paradox

My friend (who is studying physics at university) believes that if say man X travelled back in time, he would actually arrive in an alternative version of his past reality - which is created by the very act of travelling back in time.

So even if he did kill Grandfather X, he wouldn't be killing HIS grandfather X - Thus Man X would be in a reality / time that ISN'T dependant on him not killing Grandfather X.

Not quite sure how he came to this conclusion, but he stands by it 100% - he also believes travelling forward in time (beyond the present) is impossible.*


* Thus Man X would be trapped in an alternative past.

[edit on 25-7-2010 by mr-lizard]

Originally posted by Extralien

“Some little quantum fluctuation would whisk the bullet away at the last moment,” Lloyd explained.

I took a graduate course in quantum mechanics and what I was taught is that quantum fluctuations may occur with both small and large objects, but the effects are significant with small particles and insignificant with larger objects the size of a bullet. So I don't understand how a quantum fluctuation can significantly alter the course of a bullet, at least not enough to miss a human target.

And the article does say it's speculative. We have plenty of evidence for ways the universe is strange, so I'm not sure how necessary it is to speculate on new strangeness with no supporting evidence, but as someone said, it's hard to stop some scientists from speculating about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

And none of the physics majors understand travelling through time requires travelling through physical space..?

the earth will not remain static while someone attempts to travel back a day, it will move 18,000 miles in that time, the traveler would appear in empty space.

Would a time machine on earth be affected by earth's gravity?

If you do need speed to time travel, then how do you stop your machine and yourself from being destroyed by the build up of heat and G Forces? - I have never been a fan of the faster than light speed = time travel theory.

[edit on 26-7-2010 by YarlanZey] cos my = was a + (not wearing my glasses today!)

[edit on 26-7-2010 by YarlanZey]

If you can go back in time & meddle about at all,

it makes time seem much more sketchy & sort of aggregate web of events, rather than a clean linear sequence of events.

Like it is mostly directed down some sub-context topography channel(s).

But if you could make it jump its 'channel' to a new one, would you just be in a new channel where the entire long past was at least a little bit different too, & perhaps your 'old', original channel persisted, perhaps without you in it,

or might you completely shift the flow of the 'river' of event(s)?

A channeled sub-context would also make a certain amount of future casting possible i would imagine. Like one could sonar it out & get a sort of fuzzy outline of future events. Although if the chain of events jumps channel from time to time on its own, that would get nearly impossible to predict.

Thinking about time:

Imagine a sea of little automata and the way they become a part of the flow of events/time is they get rotated/aligned in some linked [polarized?] fashion, creating the 'path' of time. The way we think of it, we sort of assume they stay linked in a fixed fashion, making the past a [mostly] certain quantity.
Imagine slow lightening if you will going through some gas or fluid.
The overall power of the charge draws additional particles into ionization to continue its polarized pressure path till it reaches ground.
Except this one seems to leave some kind of lingering trail of former existence in its wake.

I have to think our present & available futures are deeply rooted in the past. Which is why we have all the consistencies of seemingly dependable physics.
It is not impossible that it is the result of immediacy rule following that creates an illusion of memory, but if that were the case it is hard to imagine someone would not have broken through it already with all of our willful ways.

I still have the impression that the eccentricities between future, present, past may be more profound than we can even imagine. It may be the supreme binary differentiation in our Universe & perhaps many others as well. Almost absolute coherency of the past & nearly complete incoherency of the future & the present is the weave &/or connection point/surface.

The way I see it, if you could go back in time, say to 1173, the future would not exist, would it? so you could not get back to your 'own time', so its one way, backwards,
As for shooting your granddad, simple, shoot your granddad after he sired your father/mother, also, it would be in your family history that your grandfather got shot, would it not?

Originally posted by Indigenous equity

And none of the physics majors understand travelling through time requires travelling through physical space..?

the earth will not remain static while someone attempts to travel back a day, it will move 18,000 miles in that time, the traveler would appear in empty space.

if the travel is though a time travel worm hole then at that point ,knowing how to make a worm hole for time and space would solve the issue with with where the point in time and space is be it forward or backwardsthe the other end is at.

[edit on 26-7-2010 by JO-ET]

[edit on 26-7-2010 by JO-ET]

Originally posted by Indigenous equity

And none of the physics majors understand travelling through time requires travelling through physical space..?

the earth will not remain static while someone attempts to travel back a day, it will move 18,000 miles in that time, the traveler would appear in empty space.

Ya they think that for some reason time is a entity in itself instead of a bye product of the human mind and world....If I would want to go to the past in this "spot i'm typing at" I would have to know were the earth was in relation to were it is at the moment i am typing this... And to do that I would have to know were the sun and other planets are in relation to the earth... And to do that I would have to know were our solar system..which is moving and expanding and contracting constantly though we don't fell it or know it... is in relation to were it was in the time that we want to go in the past...And to do that we would basically have to know how the whole dam universe is and was in relation to how it is this very moment in time which is changing as I am typing these words..And all this is just data the basic things one must know...much less the energy or time machine that would be required to phase out of being into a different being....


Kind of like the star trek nerds... who think that beaming a person to a different time and space is good for you...It could be done if one had the nano tech to basically deconstruction of a person in seconds from one place/time then recombine him from the atom up in another place/time or a impossibly powerfully supercomputer to hold and transfer all that data would be required in milliseconds...And once you take the magic out of it and know what it would actually be its not beaming to another place/time..It ads up to basically killing/deconstruction of that person in that place/time and bringing him to life in another place/time... It wouldn't be the same person but what the data of the process said was the same person if the data is wrong and mixed a few things then...oh man it could get ugly..literally...And that is not even taking in to account that each of us has a different memetic pattern based in our different experiences in life our memories and felling and thoughts which this process is in no way capable of knowing or reconstructing. It would basically kill the original and make a standard clone of him in another place/time....But here is the kicker this to can be controlled if one knew the basic mondus operati of that person all you would have to do is tell him that he is the original each time he beams and he would believe it because his memory would have to be implanted each time that would happen...So its basically a clone that thinks it's one continues being but in actuality it lives and is reborn each and every time it beams anywhere. But on the whole quantum binding thing it could be possible to actually transfer more then atoms..as in feelings and memes and things that are ethereal to the flesh/atoms... This same thing can be applied to time travel only instead of knowing and creating a whole human being from the atom up to his mind and brain each time...technically if one were to time travel you would have to create a whole universe every and each time you travel anywhere. Crazy huh but its all just theory's that is what lots of people forget...even a black hole is a theory based on what some dudes saw in data and a dot that wobbles on his screen far far away in a different galaxy. The mountain always looks smaller from far away...once close its a whole different animal.


Edit to say that I am not saying I don't like the star trek nerds. They were just an example... In fact they are pretty cool. Last time I used the word Nerd some dude thought I was discriminating against them whatever that means.

[edit on 26-7-2010 by galadofwarthethird]

Time itself is as unexplored as our oceans. we know more about outer space than we do our oceans.

Daft really.

We have got so much to discover about time and reality. For example there are threads on ATS about time slips and Australia being in the wrong place, reports of people who died only to re-appear alive and well years later.

I have also experienced the reported deaths of two well known british actors only to see them both in movies years after their 'deaths'.

Then there is the world of the paranormal. I feel that visitors from the other side may very well have no concept of time or time exists in a different manner or form.

We even read things that suggest, or try to make you believe, that there are already time travelers. but this case is kinda argued against by some saying that you first gotta make a time travelling machine...

Well, one thing we fail to take into account is that such a device may already have been made.. either in a civilization that pre-dates us, yet we have no account for, or maybe even on another planet millions of years ago.. A time machine does not have to be built on earth for it to be effective...

This has no substance about it. Quick! Lets start theorizing about the third appendage of the spaghetti monster, i have some ideas that could prove it is more tasty than the fourth!

that is easy to answer. if you subscribe to Hugh Everett's many worlds theory,the the world/time/universe/dimension that the person travels back to and kills his Granpy in,may not be his. this also explains some differences between the astral and our dimension.

So what about free will? Does this mean that your destiny is predetermined?

Originally posted by Indigenous equity

And none of the physics majors understand travelling through time requires travelling through physical space..?

the earth will not remain static while someone attempts to travel back a day, it will move 18,000 miles in that time, the traveler would appear in empty space.

That's absolutely my thoughts on the subject

A displacement in time of just 1 second could place you either 100000' in the air or 100000' underground depending whether you're on the leading or trailing edge of the earth. Not a soft landing either way so you'd need to be suitably geared up for it.

We can view the past but there's no way of interacting with it (like changing events) so no need to worry about paradoxes. The future hasn't happened yet so we can change it through direct action in the present but unfortunately it's not possible to see the results in advance, as much fun as it is to consider the possibility and how it could be used.

this is only slightly related, but they should make a new quantum leap series. that show was on when i was a kid and it was tight..

Originally posted by Indigenous equity
Attempting to travel in Time would require knowing exactly where the earth is located at a particular point in time in the past, which we can never know due to not knowing the center of the universe or the path of Earths position within all these ranges of movement. Time travel is a wonderful exercise in physics, quantum theory, etc, but it can never occur.

I agree, for the most part. There's always the potential for some groundbreaking discovery that defies our conceptions about how the universe works, but I generally suspect that time travel will probably never be easy enough to be used seriously. Also, there's an important question to be asked: if time travel is both possible and practical, where are all the time travelers? The reason I add practicality is because, even if time travel is possible and easy enough that it's able to become an everyday occurrence, it seems likely that time travel could perhaps have side effects which will lead to its restriction or outright prohibition in the future.
One of the things that a lot of people neglect is the fact that time travel, presuming its possible, is obviously a powerful weapon. Imagine, being able to travel back in time and murder all of your political enemies, either directly or indirectly. Time travelers could kill off, kidnap, or even frame (so as to place them in an accessible position for coercion) individuals who could one day develop some powerful new weapon or advancement in technology. Or, you could flip it around and send spies into the future to steal plans for weapons which won't be invented for hundreds or thousands of years. Or, better yet, take your advanced weapons from now, go back in time to 27 BCE or so, and then set up your new super-advanced dictatorship during a time when nobody can oppose you. Wait, I've got a better plan than that. Go into the future, steal some ultra-advanced weaponry, then go back in time and dominate an ancient culture (I'd go with the Romans, but that's me) during a time period when absolutely no one can oppose you.

Basically, I don't think time travel is real because, if it was, somebody would have inevitably thought of all of that and we would all be living under the dictatorship of Immortal Space Hitler.

So what if I used an UZI an riddled him with bullets?
Can a quantum fluctuation keep up with automatic weapon?
Oh and my surface to air missile I fire at him, What then?

Originally posted by keepureye2thesky
So what if I used an UZI an riddled him with bullets?
Can a quantum fluctuation keep up with automatic weapon?
Oh and my surface to air missile I fire at him, What then?

More distortions! The Uzi would jam, the missile would explode in your face. If you tried to nuke him, the weapon would fizzle, if you tried to choke him to death, your hands would be sweaty and you'd lose your grip, leading to him killing you.

This is why I suspect that a) time travel would probably be more like travelling to another universe that happens to mirror perfectly what Earth was like in... say... 1836, meaning that you killing Alois Hitler's pregnant mother before she could give birth would have no implications on present day reality and b) if we ever could time travel, the effects would probably be catastrophic. I feel like travelling through time would probably violate the First Law of Thermodynamics, which could lead to all kinds of untold consequences, if it were somehow possible. I guess you could argue that the existence of a dimension of time means that this isn't true, but I'm not sure. I'll try and find a prominent physicist that I can ask.

Originally posted by pr3l33t

Originally posted by keepureye2thesky
So what if I used an UZI an riddled him with bullets?
Can a quantum fluctuation keep up with automatic weapon?
Oh and my surface to air missile I fire at him, What then?

More distortions! The Uzi would jam, the missile would explode in your face. If you tried to nuke him, the weapon would fizzle, if you tried to choke him to death, your hands would be sweaty and you'd lose your grip, leading to him killing you.

This is why I suspect that a) time travel would probably be more like travelling to another universe that happens to mirror perfectly what Earth was like in... say... 1836, meaning that you killing Alois Hitler's pregnant mother before she could give birth would have no implications on present day reality and b) if we ever could time travel, the effects would probably be catastrophic. I feel like travelling through time would probably violate the First Law of Thermodynamics, which could lead to all kinds of untold consequences, if it were somehow possible. I guess you could argue that the existence of a dimension of time means that this isn't true, but I'm not sure. I'll try and find a prominent physicist that I can ask.

How about if I pushed him out of a plane with no chute.[snip] Why wouldn't the ultimate quantum fluctuation
simply not allow me to time travel?! Where does flucty draw the line?


Mod Edit - removed

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Originally posted by keepureye2thesky

Originally posted by pr3l33t
This is why I suspect that a) time travel would probably be more like travelling to another universe that happens to mirror perfectly what Earth was like in... say... 1836, meaning that you killing Alois Hitler's pregnant mother before she could give birth would have no implications on present day reality and b) if we ever could time travel, the effects would probably be catastrophic. I feel like travelling through time would probably violate the First Law of Thermodynamics, which could lead to all kinds of untold consequences, if it were somehow possible. I guess you could argue that the existence of a dimension of time means that this isn't true, but I'm not sure. I'll try and find a prominent physicist that I can ask.

How about if I pushed him out of a plane with no chute.[snip] Why wouldn't the ultimate quantum fluctuation
simply not allow me to time travel?! Where does flucty draw the line?

That's basically my point. I was kind of mocking the idea that quantum fluctuations are going to build this shield of invincibility around whoever you're trying to kill. I don't think it works like that. More likely, I think that time travel is just straight-up not going to work, due to the lack of time travelers showing up and trying to change history.

If you killed your grandfather you would probably just reincarnate in a different human body no? oh wait but hen you would have a different life experience..or not maybe that would just change your appearance, but you would still be in the past without changing what you have learned... ouch my head hurts..

[edit on 15-8-2010 by _SilentAssassin_]