I am one of the "parasites" on unemployment benefit who is draining your income

reply to post by Ko-Dan Armada


I was making a distinction between archetypal imagery used to illustrate a point or "fact" and provide a more concrete mental picture in the mind of the reader from the actual assertion of the "fact" itself. __Rich__ made an assertion in one post, but then appeared to provide the image in a following one as a queue to "look around", "observe" and "compare what you see to this".

Haha...that photo of some retirees at a health care Town Hall meeting rattled some cages, I see.

I did not offer it as anything. Not a proof, not evidence. Nothing except a photo of an angry old man yelling. I should have captioned it as a Town Hall meeting about "ObamaCare"...but I assumed it was obvious in the context of the conversation.

Here, how about a nice cartoon, instead?

reply to post by Ko-Dan Armada


Honestly, I'm not sure that video doesn't reflect enough of the state of things and that it shouldn't be a concern. I'm not saying it's evidence or more perhaps more stongly any sort of proof; I'm saying it does rhyme with my sense of the world. I'm not equipped to make perfect judgements, due to my limited knowledge, even in the presence of concrete data. I have to use some intuition and ancillary knowledge and extrapolate, taking my best guess. The tentative conclusion can change however.

Originally posted by EnlightenUp
reply to post by Ko-Dan Armada

 

I was making a distinction between archetypal imagery used to illustrate a point or "fact" and provide a more concrete mental picture in the mind of the reader from the actual assertion of the "fact" itself. __Rich__ made an assertion in one post, but then appeared to provide the image in a following one as a queue to "look around", "observe" and "compare what you see to this".

You're giving him a little more credit than due.

He made a fact statement in one post, was challenged in a subsequent post as to the veracity of that fact, and - in response to that challenge - asserted that observational phenomenon supported the fact statement.

Because one cannot observe "a majority of Obamacare opponents", personal experiential phenomenon may be interesting but that's about it.

To put it another way, poster descended into a thread, did a drive-by pooping with a patently ridiculous statement, was challenged on it, responded by puking up an incendiary photo, and then took flight, off to repeat in a different thread.

Originally posted by __rich__

I did not offer it as anything. Not a proof, not evidence.

This is correct. You made a fact based statement, were challenged on the accuracy of that statement, and had no proof to offer in support of a ridiculous assertion so did a copy/paste job on a photo you Google Imaged.

This seems to be your modus operandi in the best of land-grant college pedigree.

[edit on 25-7-2010 by Ko-Dan Armada]

Originally posted by __rich__
I did not offer it as anything. Not a proof, not evidence. Nothing except a photo of an angry old man yelling.

So, I was close? Just an illustration.

My cage isn't rattled. I'm enjoying the fun this place is meant to provide.

"ObamaCare"...but I assumed it was obvious in the context of the conversation.

Not with the semanics and logic Nazi nitpickers running amok!

Here, how about a nice cartoon, instead?

Si, si!

In the Micky Mouse one posted by the other fella, somehow I think he's flipping the double-birdie under those mitts.

So, Dan, you think most people on Medicare support Universal Healthcare?

People on Government assisted healthcare programs have been scared in to thinking they will lose benefits if more people are allowed in to their system.

That is not ridiculous, it's truth.

Originally posted by EnlightenUp

Originally posted by __rich__
I did not offer it as anything. Not a proof, not evidence. Nothing except a photo of an angry old man yelling.

So, I was close? Just an illustration.

My cage isn't rattled. I'm enjoying the fun this place is meant to provide.

"ObamaCare"...but I assumed it was obvious in the context of the conversation.

Not with the semanics and logic Nazi nitpickers running amok!

Here, how about a nice cartoon, instead?

Si, si!

In the Micky Mouse one posted by the other fella, somehow I think he's flipping the double-birdie under those mitts.

Ha...that's the spirit.

Yes, it was illustrative of my own perception of all the anti-"Obama-care" town hall meetings and rallies that happened.

Bunch of geriatrics ON MEDICARE yelling about death panels.

Originally posted by Ko-Dan Armada
Because one cannot observe "a majority of Obamacare opponents", personal experiential phenomenon may be interesting but that's about it.

It's doubful you could easily poll them either. I suppose you're trying to say we cannot say anything accurate about them. What does that say?

To put it another way, poster descended into a thread, did a drive-by pooping with a patently ridiculous statement, was challenged on it, responded by puking up an incendiary photo, and then took flight, off to repeat in a different thread.

I prefer dedicated, thoughtful, incisive trolling myself. But, this is an ad hominem, since you're trying to attack the poster to undermine the assertions, rather than dealing with the assertion itself. We're arguing about arguing.

And hum...just remember who first said "pooping" in a serious discussion.

Originally posted by __rich__

So, Dan, you think most people on Medicare support Universal Healthcare?

People on Government assisted healthcare programs have been scared in to thinking they will lose benefits if more people are allowed in to their system.

That is not ridiculous, it's truth.

(1) One would imagine there might be even just one independent source or statistic somewhere that would support this "truth." But, again, the best the local MENSA chapter can do is Google Image cartoons.

(2) I don't know if you actually know about the program that was recently passed but it does not expand Medicare. It does not establish a NHS. You strike me as one of the Obama voters in the video.

Originally posted by EnlightenUp

Originally posted by Ko-Dan Armada
Because one cannot observe "a majority of Obamacare opponents", personal experiential phenomenon may be interesting but that's about it.

It's doubful you could easily poll them either.

Why is that doubtful? I've seen a great many polls on a great variety of topics. Have you never seen a poll or a survey?

Here's some information on the history of survey research:

www.casro.org...

You'll be delighted to know that scientific surveys occur with great regularity in the United States.


[edit on 25-7-2010 by Ko-Dan Armada]

Originally posted by Ko-Dan Armada
You'll be delighted to know that scientific surveys occur with great regularity in the United States.

But you did talk about a "majority". This paper discusses methods of extrapolating properties of an unmanageably large group from smaller samples of the that group, thus not a "majority", but a small subset, which like a spoonful of vegetable soup, hopefully represents fairly accurately the content of the entire bowl.

Originally posted by EnlightenUp

I prefer dedicated, thoughtful, incisive trolling myself. But, this is an ad hominem, since you're trying to attack the poster to undermine the assertions, rather than dealing with the assertion itself. We're arguing about arguing.

Incorrect. This is politely accommodating the diverse social, educational and academic pedigree of the persons with whom one is speaking; using phrasing and verbiage that the conversation participants would most easily be able to understand unique to their background and ability.

I assumed since the discussion was revolving around cartoons and silly pictures instead of facts and figures this specific phrasing would be most easily understood by all participants.

I seek to achieve commonality of bond by speaking at a level that can be best celebrated by everyone involved.

[edit on 25-7-2010 by Ko-Dan Armada]

Originally posted by EnlightenUp

Originally posted by Ko-Dan Armada
You'll be delighted to know that scientific surveys occur with great regularity in the United States.

But you did talk about a "majority".

That is incorrect. I never used the word "majority" except in reference to an originating statement made by __Rich__.

I regret any confusion or angst you may have experienced.



[edit on 25-7-2010 by Ko-Dan Armada]

"Keep your Government hands off my Medicare!"

healthcare.change.org...


"There is no question older Americans are worried that any health care overhaul may cut end up cutting their benefits, even if the worst of those fears are being stoked by misinformation.

What may be more puzzling is how much confusion there is among Medicare recipients about what the program is — as evident in the variants of “Keep government out of Medicare!” that have been shouted at town hall meetings.

prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com...

reply to post by Ko-Dan Armada


woah, i never meant to insult you, and apologize if i di.
and you're right, as a Canadian my interactions with Americans are FAR more limited than an American. However, I also thought (or at least tried) that I made clear that I wasn't speaking about ALL or even a MAJORITY of Americans.
But it is ridiculous to deny that there are a LARGE number of Americans that buy into the Fox News view of the world lock stock and barrel (they're a business and if there wasn't a demographic for what they were saying/selling, they'd change what they were saying/selling).
I have heard horror stories from several Americans that i DO know regarding undue financial strains put upon them in order to pay for necessary medical care. Several is not ALL, and I'm sure there are many Americans who've had very positive experiences with health care, just as I'm sure there are many who have horror stories.
You seem like an intelligent, well read and thoughtful person, I would assume that most of the people you associate with are likewise. Just as I am fairly interested, if not involved, in political and social issues, so are the majority of those I spend my time with. That is to say that our view on people in general is skewed by the people we associate most with. I will also say that my views and statements were based on what I know from speaking with the few Americans or ex-pats I know, and the media, both mainstream and independent.
I seem to have mispoke, or at least spoke without knowing as much about the subject as would be ideal, but when I've heard people in your government making statements similar to the 'aaaah! socialism!' sentiment i alluded to, to say that my statements were completely lacking in truth is somewhat ridiculous.
anyway, as i said, i didn't mean any offense.
peace

Originally posted by __rich__
"Keep your Government hands off my Medicare!"

healthcare.change.org...


"There is no question older Americans are worried that any health care overhaul may cut end up cutting their benefits, even if the worst of those fears are being stoked by misinformation.

What may be more puzzling is how much confusion there is among Medicare recipients about what the program is — as evident in the variants of “Keep government out of Medicare!” that have been shouted at town hall meetings.

prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com...

There is nothing in your link that supports the fact-statement "a majority of people who oppose Obamacare are on Medicare and Medicaid."

You are almost perpetrating the logical fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc, but not even quite that.*

The only statistic in your source is "The majority of seniors — 78 percent — identified Medicare as a federal program."

This is was your M.O. in another thread: start flood-posting as many statistics as possible in hope one will eventually stick.

I don't care about the circumference of the Earth, the suicide rate in Suriname, the favorite American Idol contestant among Hispanic females.

You have a tepid strategy, that is, flood as much non sequitur written material in here as possible in hope that eventually someone will tire of reading it and stop challenging you to prove your rather ridiculous assertions.

That moment for me, I regret, is now. Regrettably, I have to make a conscious choice to only engage in arguments based on Logic and Reason. Irrational and emotional knee-jerk arguments are not ones that hold personal interest to me.

It has been interesting, though slightly odd, speaking with you. I wish you the best of luck in all your future endeavors in life and hope you feel better soon.

Warmest Regards,
- KdA

----

*
A Majority of Seniors Oppose Obamacare
does not equal
A Majority of Opponents of Obamacare are On Medicare/Medicaid

A Majority of People on Medicare/Medicaid Oppose Obamacare
does not equal
A Majority of Opponents of Obamacare are On Medicare/Medicaid

Originally posted by FuzzyDunlop
reply to post by Ko-Dan Armada

 

I've heard people in your government making statements similar to the 'aaaah! socialism!' sentiment i alluded to, to say that my statements were completely lacking in truth is somewhat ridiculous.

I've heard Borys Wrzesnewskyj support Hezbollah and many Canadian MPs make all sorts of inflammatory statements about any number of topics. I have never jumped to the conclusion that Canadians are in love with Hezbollah, or anything else. I recognize the difference in rhetorical speech of politicians and grounded opinions of people.

You also didn't explain to me what 3 or 4 social programs the U.S. should have that it doesn't have now. Recall, you implied the there was not an adequate social safety net in the U.S. I'm just on my way to the airport so it's doubtful I'll be able to check this thread again but if you could just PM me with a few of those that would be swell. I'll be happy to respond with a pointed and detailed criticism of the Newfoundland seal hunt, tactics of the Canadian Airborne Regiment in Somalia and an exhortation for my love of the FLQ and Quebecois independence. I'm sure all of Canada would very much appreciate an American wagging his finger and lecturing the Dominion on these critical issues.

Thanks!
KdA

"After all, more than 80 percent of
seniors are still in the regular Medicare program."

www.ama-assn.org...



"Senior citizens are emerging as a formidable obstacle to President Obama's ambitious health-care reform plans.

Seniors Remain Wary of Health-Care Reform

The discontent in the powerful and highly organized voting bloc has risen to such a level that the administration is scrambling to devise a strategy to woo the elderly."

www.washingtonpost.com...

[edit on 25-7-2010 by __rich__]

Originally posted by Ko-Dan Armada
*
A Majority of Seniors Oppose Obamacare
does not equal
A Majority of Opponents of Obamacare are On Medicare/Medicaid

A Majority of People on Medicare/Medicaid Oppose Obamacare
does not equal
A Majority of Opponents of Obamacare are On Medicare/Medicaid

Wasn't this about unemployment benefits anyway?

Anyhew, here's some low-pedigree thinking:
If at least 75% of seniors are on Medicade/Medicare and at least 50% of seniors oppose obama care, then a minimum of 50% of those that oppose Obamacare are also on Medicade/Medicare. I hope I didn't flub my mathums.