The universal suicide taboo--a religious conspiracy?

It's in chapter 57 starting on page 382 in "Old Path White Clouds". Some monks killed themselves after meditating on the impermanent nature of their bodies they no longer wished to lived. He say's that the brothers who killed themselves acted foolishly and did not understand (the teachings, or reality). He was saddened by their actions and immediately held a talk. He says freedom and enlightenment are not attained by escaping the world but by understanding the true nature of all Dharmas.

The Hindu ascetics did practice self-mortification and self-mutilation. But they were just trying to save themselves through the practice. Alan Watts once said the Buddha realized this (in his own early practices of self-mortification he was only trying to save his own skin) and saw that the trap and the trapped are one, and once you realize this there is no trap at all.

In my belief system.

The suicidal soul will have just as hard of a time resting as the murdered soul.

To me, this is why self inflicted death is a no-no spiritually.

Originally posted by Takka

reply to post by impaired

 

Also, some people are mentally unbalanced and in pain.

Fair enough , I can understand people who are mentally unstable or people in constant pain due to injuries/disease .
To be more specific I'm referring to those who have have nothing physically or mentally wrong with them , but kill themselves over things like break ups (I know of several people having done this , I dare say this is a very common thing) Putting their family and friends through this kind of pain and loss to me is very selfish . I understand they get themselves into an irrational state of mind , and may not be thinking about the consequences of their actions .
A stronger person wouldn't do such a thing , hence in my opinion - weak minded.
And no I can't put myself in their shoes , but I know I would never even consider doing such a thing .
There are plenty of people who have had very hard lives and haven't resorted to suicide .
I understand my point of view will piss some people off , but it doesn't change how I feel about the subject.
People who kill themselves for what seems to me to be silly reasons pisses me off .
I cant help that , that's the way my mind works , even watching people off themselves in movies makes me angry .
[edit on 18-7-2010 by Takka]

Oh! Then we're in agreement then.
I can totally get down with what you're saying - like how these Emo-kids pull their crap, and like you said about people offing themselves because of a break-up.

THAT is ridiculous... I've come to realize that some pains in life are indeed transient.
But when that pain is there for over 15 years with no sign of going away, then what?

If I may delve into some info on my position regarding myself:

I'm tormented (I mean CONSTANT anxiety that's off the scale, and totally depressed) - I will not lie or sugar coat.

BUT: I will NOT off myself because the way I look at it is life is a learning experience.

That said, I really believe in Karma (and yeah, past lives - sorry). With that in mind, I just look at it like I'm paying a karmic debt (a hell of a one, if I may say).

With every shred of pain that I feel, I also feel some sort of satisfaction BECAUSE of my belief in Karma. When something bad comes my way or when I feel like crap all the time, I just put my "paid karma" into the bank and just keep stacking it up.

I will not forfeit this life - I will ride it out until the wheels fall off. I recommend anyone else who "has no hope" to ride it out as well. Imagine the satisfaction when all is said and done and you hung in there while taking a beating!!!!!

Bring the karma!

Sorry - I had to get that out, as strange of a post it may have been!

[edit on 7/19/2010 by impaired]

'Suicide missions'. Or someone leaping into a swollen river to save a child. A policeman running to defend someone against an armed gang. A fireman charging into a burning building. A family-man or woman working 14 hours a day to keep his/her family housed and fed. Grandparents with medical conditions undertaking child-minding duties. Scientists working with lethal pathogens. X-treme sportsmen and women leaping from buildings, mountains, etc. Explorers and missionaries entering dangerous regions. Protesters faced with armed riot-police in defence of principle

All knowingly confront potential, often extremely-likely, death. Suicides ? Suicides under a different name ?

Troops in Afghanistan, ordered to engage suicidal Taliban who believe death to be glorious martyrdom. Suicide ?

Elderly folk determinedly striding out 'for a walk' during freezing weather - sometimes in secret and sometimes in defiance of all pleas by friends and family who insist they'll 'catch their death of cold'. Suicide ?

People are commiting suicide all around us every day, under a variety of guises. I plan to do the same when I deem the time to be right, rather than become a pathetic mess taking up valuable resources and bed-space in hospital or aged-care home

I feel very strongly about the right of people to end their lives any time they choose - to the point I basically believe suicide-booths should be liberally located within all cities and towns

Governments give themselves permission to murder tens of thousands of people every day, using various methods: water contaminated with a cocktail of poisons; Chemtrailed air: toxic vaccines; orchestrated phony wars; destruction of crops and engineered plagues and famines, etc. Yet those same governments (as reward to religions which in turn render populations obedient to government) have the hide - are so nauseatingly hypocritical - to criminalise suicide and to make it very difficult for people to end their lives with dignity

So what's the message we're getting from State and religion ? Is it a case of 'You'll die when we say you can. We can end your lives, but you're not permitted to end it yourselves' ? Yes. That's the message. And those same hypocritical goverhnments and religionists know where they can stick it

The other message that comes through loud and clear from governments and religion is: We're going to make you stay here and suffer. We become frothing-at-the-mouth enraged when you escape or try to

They INSIST we stay and suffer. They don't care if we die according to their whims. They lust for control. They can't bear to lose it. They can't stand the thought of OUR assuming control and escaping this hell

In order to prevent people from escaping, they use threat of punishment. They claim suicide is a sin. LOL. But notice how driving people to suicide (bankrupting and destroying millions through 'global financial collapse' or through wars or through created-unemployment and dozens of other means) doesn't ruffle their feathers ? No. Only one thing sends them bat-spit crazy -- and that's the mere hint that thousands of people have had enough and are leaving. Oh no, they scream. You shalt not depart. We have WARS for that. We have DRUGS for that. We have POVERTY for that. We have AIDS and other lab-created disease for that. We have phony 9/11s for that and oil-spills and mind-destroying DEPRESSION and life-destroying financial-hardships for that. We will torture you and make your life a living-hell -- but if you try to escape, we will do our best to scare the daylights out of you and fill you with even MORE guilt and despair. Tee hee. And we will make it so HARD for you to leave with dignity. If you insist of leaving anyway, you'll have to jump under a train or bus or leap from a high bridge. That way, picking up the pieces of you will create even more depression and despair for those assigned to that job. And it will make life even worse for those you leave behind. Because we HATE you. And our joy comes from making your life a torturous hell. Until your mind or body finally give out. At which point we're unable to force you to remain here any longer. BUT ... tee hee ... by then we'll have your children and grandchildren to torture

Suicide booths, or euthanasia clinics should be as plentiful as banks or libraries. But if they were ---- then governments would have to WORK a little to keep us here, wouldn't they ? And poof would go their satanic control, you see. Heaven forbid (and heaven DOES seem to forbid it) that people should enjoy their incarceration on this planet/dimension. No, misery and suffering is the lot of mankind. And that can only be by design -- the same design which decreed that everything on this planet is compelled to survive at the expense of something else

Makes perfect sense to depart. Even noble to depart. For by remaining, we become guilty by association

[edit on 19-7-2010 by Dock9]

the reality is that 99% of the suicides are based on crazyness

BUT yes, there are some old people that believe they are already done in life and they simply shutdown, without the need to warm themselves

if thats your theory, than I agree, otherwise you are just a teenager trying to justify your crazyness@lol

[edit on 19/7/10 by Faiol]

reply to post by hawkiye


To be clear, I make a distinction between my starting place, (my firm beliefs) and my theory about suicide and its religious taboo. My firm beliefs may certainly be considered as a theory, however, and I don't really see the conflict there.
I wasn't trying to alienate you from the conversation, however, point out that I believe we may not have the common assumptions (my firm beliefs) necessary to discuss the theory which depends upon them. My bad though, I should have laid them all out, like a theory and had a common starting point for the discussion.
For example, your question of how perfection came to experience itself in this reality. You can view it one of several ways. Conscious choice for the betterment of the self is one view. I don't share this view. And although I appreciate your input, if that view is correct then the "suicide taboo" theory is meaningless.
I actually think the act of creation itself caused a sort of identity crisis in the Created. I don't think any "real" error occured. In its power and newness it thought it had killed God and created this dream to hide in. Why do I think this? I think this because this dynamic is pretty much everywhere. This nameless sense of guilt. This desire to protect and attack. The "guts" of the world are made of it. Our interpersonal dynamics speak of it. Think of one's parents and the combination of guilt, resentment and love that is invariably there. I believe that comes from something deeper.
But we didn't really DO anything but dream. No sin was committed and we are still perfect.
Hope that answered your question a little better. I did not mean to seem dismissive.

If you're at the theatre and are not enjoying the movie or play --- you leave. And that's fine. It's 'normal'. No condemnation. No people wailing, Oh, but it's a SIN to leave the show early

If you don't like a party -- you leave

If you don't like a neighbourhood -- you leave

If you no longer respect a political party -- you no longer support it or vote for it

If you don't like your marriage or partner -- you quit

If you don't like your relatives -- you leave



If you don't enjoy your life or like the world -- you SHOULD be able to leave

Not as if you were going to live forever anyway. Not as if you weren't going to die anyway




.

[edit on 19-7-2010 by Dock9]

reply to post by ModestThought

There is truth in this type of thinking the truth lies in the idea of the individual deciding to leave of their own accord. Remember the Buddha and how he told his followers he was leaving and ascended the different levels of his mind until he was free of this world. Would that be considered suicide. It is my belief that until a soul is able to leave in this way then they are not ready to leave.

Excellent post and good way to put the above concept. You're not ready to leave until you have gained the experience you need. We are all on a journey for the experience. Reflections of god experiencing himself.

reply to post by joechip



Thanks for the clarification it is appreciated.

Why do I think this? I think this because this dynamic is pretty much everywhere. This nameless sense of guilt. This desire to protect and attack. The "guts" of the world are made of it. Our interpersonal dynamics speak of it. Think of one's parents and the combination of guilt, resentment and love that is invariably there. I believe that comes from something deeper.

Or perhaps it is just part of our evolution and the point we are at now? So when we were at earlier stages of evolution more a primitivel man and relied more on instinct like animls without emotion more connected to nature no sense of self, except as a human we had a newly found sense of self but were reluctant to trust it just yet. For many cycles it seems nothing changed. But then we began to discover self, individualism, but it took a long time for us to move away from animal type instinct. and so on.

So right now the desire to protect and attack has been our norm for many generations to serve self but as you may have noticed people are begining to awake to a new sense of connectedness and compassion moving away from self etc. we are at a new turning point in our spiritual and human evolution. But we are at the beginning stage and it will take a long time.

Anyway here is another article from that website that I really like that explains the journey in good detail and hopefully you might like it better then the last (one more try ). But it reflects my feelings fairly well: www.freeread.com...

One version of Religion's stand on suicide:

Billy Graham was asked these questions...

Q: Is suicide the unpardonable sin?

A: Billy Graham writes, "Suicide is always a tragedy—but in itself it is not the unpardonable sin. The only sin God cannot pardon is the sin of rejecting Him."


Q: A friend told me that suicide is the unforgivable sin and that I'll never see my husband in heaven (he was a Christian, but he took his own life). Is my friend right?

A: Billy Graham writes, "I regret that your friend upset you by saying suicide is the unforgivable sin, because this is not what the Bible says. Only one sin can never be forgiven by God, and that is the sin of turning one's back on God and rejecting His offer of salvation in Christ."

billygraham.org

This is one of those questions that depends on how you see life itself.

Some people believe life is an absolute good in and of itself, and that's just the way it is. If you strongly believe this, you are likely to be anti-abortion, anti-assisted death, etc.

Some people believe there are things that can happen in life that are much worse than death per se. If you believe this, you might see some situations where suicide could be justified.

These two views can't really be reconciled with each other and there is no logical or rational way to prove either of them. So the argument is in effect endless. I personally think there are many things in this life I'd rather die than live through. But its certainly not a decision to be made lightly. Like bringing life into this world, taking life out of it is one of the few truly irreversable decisions that a person can make.

I realize I shouldn't have called this taboo "universal"...

Thank you for that.

Who hates his life more than a suicide?

Suicidal thought often involves "problem solving." The person may think about how their own death will improve their siutation. The quality of that thought may vary from the coldest rationality (there are, after all, plenty of things worse than death) to utter mental collapse (the aliens say that they'll beam you up as soon as you're finished).

So, I would not infer that someone "hated life," knowing only that they performed, or seriously contemplated, suicide. Nor could I be certain of any rational connection between preference and behavior in their thinking, knowing only that one fact about the person.

It is also very unlikely that suicide has anything to do with what Jesus was talking about in the biblical passage you cited. However, one interpretation of Jesus' career is what we now call in the United States "suicide by cop."

Could the major world religions be blocking the door to the easy way out?
Wouldn't their main focus be on keeping people in the "black iron prison?"

Obviously, no vendor wants any paying client to commit suicide, just as the vendor doesn't want anything else that loses a customer.

On the other hand, I think it is absurd to attribute attitudes about a complicated subject like suicide to a marginal interest like that.

If you really believe that religion is an enterprise which controls the masses, then you must also believe that religion has a lot in common with other mass merchandisers, like McDonalds, say.

Uncle Mac would obviously rather you kept coming in regularly for your dead cow fix. But if you stopped, then he would hardly notice, much less grieve. There are plenty more customers where you came from.

Could the ultimate freedom be found through the ultimate renouncement of this world, suicide?
Why not?

That's very interesting to speak of "finding" anything. The waking consciousness can hardly conceive of its own non-existence, probably for many of the same reasons that sighted people can hardly conceive of what it is like to be blind from birth. It is "like" nothing.

So, if indeed, suicide extinguishes you, then you don't find anything at all. Not freedom, not rest, just nothing.

In the alternative, if suicide doesn't extinguish you, then Hamlet summed it up nicely, that there's the rub, who knows what dreams may come?

That makes it a little hard to offer advice, no?

reply to post by Dock9


That's exactly how I feel. "You'll die when *we're* thru abusing, playing and torturing you." I know too many people kept at the edge of absolute destruction. Unable to move, Unable to do anything but play the ugly little game set before them.

reply to post by eight bits


I believe you misunderstand my point about religion. The "customers" of religion are totally different than the customers of McDonald's. I'm not talking about profit motive here, but a mindset that leads nowhere on purpose to keep us coming back to this plane of existence.
And remind me where I offered advice of any kind.
Read the thread, maybe.

Originally posted by joechip
This thread will examine the possible conspiracy involved in the condemnation of suicide by major world religions, and will examine the theory (put forward here) that suicide is actually an act of great spiritual courage and is possibly the ONLY act that will break the wheel of rebirth and demonstrate true spiritual commitment.

It's cultural rather than religious. In many cultures, honor suicides are approved of and even spoken of very favorably -- the one that immediately came to mind was the Roman Empire, where religion had nothing to do with suicide.

There are also "sacrificial classes" of people -- those who (while not suicide) put themselves into dangerous situations for the good of society (military, police, firefighters, etc.) Again, religion isn't the motive (though patriotism may be) but some other cultural factor.

reply to post by Byrd


That is true about culture but look at the commandments or rules of religions, practically all of them make suicide against the rules. A culture may have it's ways but then a religion moves in and begins to affect things. Not that this is crucial, but even in Laveyan Satanism it is a "sin" to commit suicide. You have to look pretty long to find one that allows suicide. This thread is the first time I've heard of ANY religion that allowed it in it's rules.

Religions sell the ultimate, a wonderfull afterlife.
Now, once you have everyone believing that if they do as they're told, they will have this wonderfull afterlife, you then have to tell them that suicide is a mortal sin, else they would all be offing themselves to live with the God in the wonderfull afterlife you told them all about.
You wouldn't have anyone left to control!

I had a close friend who got totally inebriated and then drove off on his motorcycle. He wrecked his bike 3 blocks from home and died. It was listed as accidental death. I called it suicide. Unhappy doesn't begin to descibe this man's life. But because his death was listed as accidental, his wife got the insurance and free Navy funeral.

Whenever someone is murdered, we can blame the perpetrator. We have an outlet for our grief and anger. Whenever a person dies of old age/natural cause, we have time to accept that their death is near. Whenever some dies of accidental causes we try not to blame them and instead blame God or providence. This is why we don't want our friends or family members to commit suicide. We often blame ourselves. We feel guilty. We feel that if only we could have done x, y, or z, our friend/family member would still be alive.

Murderers should be held responsible and accountable for their actions. All other deaths should be accepted and the loss greived. Stop blaming! If I chose to commit suicide today it would be my choice and there is nothing you or anyone else could have done to prevent it! We are a selfish bunch and we don't want to let go of the people in our lives. We should just love one another and if that love includes letting someone go then so be it. My life or death shouldn't hinge on how it would make you feel!

I believe you misunderstand my point about religion. The "customers" of religion are totally different than the customers of McDonald's. I'm not talking about profit motive here, but a mindset that leads nowhere on purpose to keep us coming back to this plane of existence.

Great. So now you have seen another perspective on these issues besides your own.

Some people think that's part of the point of posting on a discussion board. Other views are possible, of course.

And remind me where I offered advice of any kind.

You go first. Remind me where I said that you did.

Read the thread, maybe.

I already had. Thanks so much for the advice, though. Umm... that was advice, right?

"That makes it a little hard to offer advice, no?"

If you weren't talking about the OP what advice are you referring to?
No problem with other opinions, but you seemed to argue that religion didn't care, really, if people suicide because they will always have customers, like a fast food joint. I was merely pointing out that the collection plate wasn't the point, at least not MY point, so my point stands. I mean, you were making a refutation based on an incorrect reading, right? Maybe I don't get YOUR point. You have one, right?