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Now, before we even get to that point of the discussion, we first have to believe that a Diesel fire, in an extremely damped situation, burning very inefficiently would have enough heat to liquefy even one piece of steel. There just isn't any science to even get that far, so how the building fell is really a moot point until we figure out how a Diesel Fire melted steel? If we give the OS a whole bunch of unlikely what-ifs regarding other fuel sources and wind-tunnel effects, and superheated drywall and paint, and stress fractures in the steel from the impact, even if we jump through all those unlikely hoops to an almost impossible conclusion, then we have to continue letting the OS speculate that all of the hundreds of beams were affected equally by this unlikely scenario?
So, looking at the information below, and remembering that there is not sufficient airflow in this fire to get to ideal temperatures, and remembering that there are numerous walls and insulating factors between the fires and the steel, and remembering that the building is designed with certain "worst-case scenario" safety factors involved to withstand an impact, or a high wind, or a deep freeze, or an intense fire, or an earthquake, and remembering that the radiating heat would be absorbed / reflected differently as it encountered each layer of insulating material in a number of directions and distances, how can anyone conclude that hundreds of steel beams melted and collapsed simultaneously from a kerosene fire?
Melting Temperature of Steel 1100-1600 deg. Cast Iron 1200-1350 deg. Pure Iron 1535 deg.
Ignition Temperature of Kerosene 229 deg. Diesel 399 deg. Acetone 465 deg. Asphault 538 deg.
At 550 degrees, the steel loses approx. 50% of structural integrity. Wall Masonry collapses at 760 deg. (Remember Kerosene burns at 229 deg.)
www.tcforensic.com.au...
We know about the fire ratings of concrete block walls, and it would be approximately 4 hours before dangerous heat would transfer to the far side. It would surely be longer than that for sufficient heat to melt steel would transfer! PreCast or Pre-stressed Concrete walls have even higher ratings.
www.masonrybc.org...
The fire resistance ratings of masonry walls are determined by heat
transmission measured by temperature rise on the cold side. A masonry
wall will not let flames or smoke through even after the temperature of
the wall on the cold side has risen above required levels. Few walls fail
due to load during the fire test, during cooling under the fire hose, or
during the double load test that follows.
Read "Double Load" test that follows on a second or subsequent fire after surviving an initial fire and a cold blast from a fire hose.
The fire rating is a little lower on that page linked.
Architects and Engineers design in a lot of redundant safety factors, so I would guess that even if the fire had raged for a full day, and even if several beams finally reached 50% structural integrity, that the building would still stand. I would also remind us that there is no way a damped kerosene fire gets us to that point in any amount of time, but especially in the short time span of 9/11.
Here is some interesting testing for Steel structures in PetroChemical plants where intense fires have the added heat of petrochemicals. 2000 degrees within 5 minutes is tested and the steel maintains structural integrity!
Petrochemical plant fire testing
The American Iron and Steel Institute (AISI) tested and reported
fire resistance ratings of load bearing steel stud walls with
gypsum wallboard protection (with or without cavity insulation) in the early 1980s. The study was conducted to develop an
analytical method making it possible to predict the structural
behavior of cold-formed steel framing in load-bearing walls under the conditions in the ASTM E119 Standard Fire Test. As a result, fire-resistant ratings, construction and material details are provided in UL Fire Resistance Directory as Design U425.
www.bfrl.nist.gov...
As noted previously, large buildings located in urban areas could be classified in higher performance groups than similar buildings located in less concentrated areas, thus justifying higher fire resistances for buildings located in concentrated urban areas. While the severity of the fires in such similar buildings would be expected to be similar regardless of the building location, the potential consequences of building collapse would be different based on the building location. Consequently, it would be reasonable to require a higher level of fire resistance for buildings located in urban areas than for similar buildings in isolated locations
Originally posted by getreadyalready
Care to elaborate? My information came from fire code in NYC, and from plans of the world trade centers. The post with all the pertinent links and sources exists on ATS. I am personally tired of reposting it, but you don't have to take my word for it. find my original post follow the links and see for yourself.
Originally posted by getreadyalready
I posted link for the concrete encasement
Originally posted by getreadyalready
It would never, ever have gotten the steel to drop even 50% in integrity, and if by some miracle it did burn that hot, it would have taken more than 12 hours.
Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
Interesting that there's such a resounding silence in the face of that video.
Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
We know it can't have been bombs that caused the collapse because, as shown in ANOK's video above, the destruction begins at the point of entry.
Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
And the WTC didn't fall into its own footprint anyway. Remember the sections being "blown 400ft"?
Originally posted by wmd_2008
reply to post by ANOK
Look at pictures of the fires you can see the full length of a floor
ON FIRE,not in one area to allow heat to dissipate along the steel as you claim
Another thing some posters (getreadyalready) on this thread still keep going on about the steel melting IT DOESN'T have to see graph in link below. IF YOU cant understand what it means ask someone who does!
Of interest is the maximum value which is fairly regularly found. This value turns out to be around 1200°C, although a typical post-flashover room fire will more commonly be 900~1000°C. The time-temperature curve for the standard fire endurance test, ASTM E 119 [13] goes up to 1260°C, but this is reached only in 8 hr. In actual fact, no jurisdiction demands fire endurance periods for over 4 hr, at which point the curve only reaches 1093°C.
Office fires can burn at 900-1000C kerosene started the fires but you had paper,
wood, plastics etc all burning NOT just kerosene NICE TRY!
LOOK at this video of the south tower collapse AND I mean LOOK at it !
WHAT DO YOU SEE WHEN YOU ACTUALLY LOOK!!!!!
Then try to tell ANYONE the top section of the South tower doesn't
fall as one section!
SO what kind of loads do you want to talk about ANOK
DEAD,IMPOSED,WIND,STATIC,DYNAMIC,SIESMIC,SHEAR, PULLOUT
PRYOUT LOADS ,BENDING MOMENTS,LIVE LOADS, ENVIRONMENTAL OR EVEN SHOCK LOADS