Time-Travel quandary :-/

Right this paradox has been sending me round the twist, any solutions would be a bonus ..

right here goes .. You are working in your garage when you future-self walks in and hands you the plans to a time-machine, You proceed to build that time-machine and in the near future, go back and hand the plans to your past self, this is a loop that would go on for infinity, and the big question is ....drum roll.......Who created the time machine plans?? lol

Btw if you didn't go back in time and give yourself the plans then what what happen?? also ?? ah my head hurts

[edit on 17-6-2004 by John bull 1]

Simple, Time is a human illusion. In reality there is mass and mostion and from these we observe time. But there is no actual time travel.

The problem with this and ALL other paradoxes involving time is they are only in the human mind.

The theory of perpendiclar time and other universes is a way to appear to time travel, but even then you aren't really moving through time, just space that looks like our past.

Hammering your head against a time paradox is like trying to make a cubical sphere... you can think about it, but it will never exist.

Originally posted by Mindsmog
You proceed to build that time-machine and in the near future, go back and hand the plans to your past self, this is a loop that would go on for infinity, and the big question is ....drum roll.......Who created the time machine plans?? lol

**Aren't you going by the assumption that yours is the only timeline--ie the loop--
** Your future self handed you plans...but we do not know if your future self said "here's something I invented, build it"
** This would also imply that either a) you had the plans in your memory and just hadn't thought of it when your future self walked in and handed them to you or b) your future self comes from a time where time travel is possible, and you were looking to get a jump on the commerce for it

If time is an illusion, then why does it measurably dilate according to Einstein's theory of special relativity?

Originally posted by Paul
If time is an illusion, then why does it measurably dilate according to Einstein's theory of special relativity?

It doesn't...exactly. Space and therefore motion does. This then makes what we see as time dialate with it. Time is a real dimension in the sense that humans can say this is now, and the future will come. But in reality there is no way to prove it and you don't even really need it to explain things.

For example, I can prove a mass is at point A now....and down the line I can prove the same mass is at point B. When I do that, how can I prove the mass was ever at point A? At best I can explain I saw it at A, or show you measurments of it having been at A, but the fact is the mass is at point B with a certain momentum.

Time is a bitch. You can quote me on that.

lol , some cool replies here I suppose time travel in my mind can only exist in an alternate timeline, and that would answer my question, meaning my future self is another me that has stepped into my reality and given me a timemachine , if i then go back i am also stepping into another alternate reality, this would go on forever creating a new reality every time, and wow that thought is makin me dizzy lol , thanks for replies, especially quest you bringing some decent argument mate

I think that perhaps instead of "time being an ilusion" time is a perception humans have. IE planting a seed and observing the growth, yes, that is transformation of matter seed-seedling-plant etc but there is the "perception" of the amount of "time" it took the plant to grow.
Ever wonder for example if a dog knows if you are gone 2 hours or 2 days? The dog not having been exposed to the concept of the "perception of time" would not know if it was 2 seconds , 2 days or 2 years. Perhaps time is a "force" like gravity or light that can be manipulated, maybe gravity and light need to be manipulated to allow for the manipulation of time.

Actually Netstorm...that is a great description...it is a force we can bend and control, but not pass through.

What are the clocks and watches made for? are we just measuring perception?

haha, thats a funny way to put it, but yeah, i guess clocks and watches do only measure perception! haha

correct me if i am wrong, but time is measured by humans in two ways. one is because of mass and movement... but isnt another way because we can remember things. Just because we remember events means we created time... so even though dogs cant say you were gone for two seconds, they know if you were gone for longer or shorter a time... correct?

Urgh.

Quest, I know a lot of people that think the way you do, and things I'll ask you not to ask me to do:

A) Think for myself.
B) Follow Logic.
C) Stop being a Scientist.

I know that may sound silly, but in my encounters with people who have the belief that time only exists because humans perceive it, some 95% of those I've run into believe that I am some patsy who sees an x=y and believes it, they believe that since they don't think what the rest of the world does, they must be right, and are the martyr, while we, the populous, and the educated, are wrong - I do not mean to label you as one of these, but they are common, and they are not people I wish to converse with, for their own closedmindedness and inability to think confuses me, as I am sure I and much of the intelligent world confuse them. Anyrate, onto my post.

If there is a dimension known as time that is actually worked into the fabric of space, that is not merely a consequence of perceptual cognition, then travelling back through it is in all theoretical means impossible. Wormholes are a possible exception, but a likelier concept than them is a dimensional bridge, where you would jump into a universe that is very similar to your own, but sits at a different point in time. If you know a bit about string theory and ekpyrosis, then you may already know, or already have thought of the idea that a time dimension may exist individually in each brane, while a larger overruling time dimension may exist outside all things, which prevents any chances of paradoxes, because while the person could be at a point behind their own intended time, they would still be moving ever-forward in the outer-time, which would be like the Universe's safety net. Anyrate, two universes that turn out identically could be created a minute apart. If you live in the one a minute ahead, then you could jump to the minute earlier one, and manage to 'travel back' a minute.

If time is all a human perception, and invention, completely 100% a creation by us, then the last 1000 years of human knowledge is baseless and we have no real point of existing - all we do is limit ourselves, and were we to meet another civilisation, we could infect them with limits too - if time is nonexistent altogether, then I don't think humanity should exist..

Then again, I am nuts. G'day.

Originally posted by Quest
Actually Netstorm...that is a great description...it is a force we can bend and control, but not pass through.

So then the concept of time travel is impossible? Because time is only a measurement that we as humans created, therefore a we cannot pass through it? Only control it through our perception? Am I on the right path?

Viendin ....applause that was a fascinating read matey...Thanks and no I don't think your nuts.

Wanna prove that time is a perception? Go tanking. If you do not know what tanking is, I'll give you a brief explanation.
You immerse yourself in water that is heated to body temp. In a box, with a lid. When you get in you float, because the water used is full of epsom salt. When you close the lid, it is DARK, so dark that can not see your hand in front of your face....without visual clues, you will have no idea how long you are in the tank. To you, what seems to be 5 minutes probably is actually 30 or vice versa, 30 seemed like 5.
I never said time did not exist, I simply stated that instead of time being an ilussion, it is a perception.
other definitions of time

"time -- (the continuum of experience in which events pass from the future through the present to the past)"

"time -- (a period of time considered as a resource under your control and sufficient to accomplish something; "take time to smell the roses"; "I didn't have time to finish"; "it took more than half my time")"

"fourth dimension, time -- (the fourth coordinate that is required (along with three spatial dimensions) to specify a physical event)"

www.cogsci.princeton.edu...

www.google.com...:time

time-the fourth dimension of spacetime that allows events to occur linearly as humans recognize them, presumably in the direction of increased entropy
time dilation-relativistic incongruence of two interpretations of time due to differently accelerated reference frames
timeline-series of events of a distinguished reality

people.ucsc.edu...

Originally posted by Narnia

Originally posted by Quest
Actually Netstorm...that is a great description...it is a force we can bend and control, but not pass through.

So then the concept of time travel is impossible? Because time is only a measurement that we as humans created, therefore a we cannot pass through it? Only control it through our perception? Am I on the right path?

Yes. It is impossible All my dreams are gone because of it wait 'till i told more people.

A variable outside of the loop as tangent to the loop itself, introduced them, (the plans) as co-efficients to the entire equation. On the probability scale, it is likely that the tangent or co-efficient factor itself only happens once and for all and never again. Everybody falls their first......and last time at once.