NEWS: China is Sending Nuclear Technology to Iran and NK

Originally posted by Muaddib
I don't see any pentagon report in there. I just see the view of people who seem to be loyal to the Chinese government and some Chinese officials saying such report exist. You gave links from the same source. The whole thing started from a Chinese newspaper, which would be completly biased against the West... Once more, is there such thing as freedom of the press in China?......

[edit on 19-6-2004 by Muaddib]

Muaddib, please see the following Chinese links from the same source:

www.threegorgesprobe.org...

www.threegorgesprobe.org...

www.threegorgesprobe.org...

Why should Chinese media be completly biased against the West??? No, it is your bias!!! Chinese has reported the whole process of this news and please see the above Chinese links carefully.

The original of the news does come from your US media
Why not does US media refute this news in stead of Taiwan's media???

BTW, is there such thing as freedom of the press in US?......
I have known the performance of your US media in Iraqi War, which is partly controlled by Bush governmet. Dont feel embarrassed to agree



[edit on 20-6-2004 by devmim]

[edit on 20-6-2004 by devmim]

[edit on 20-6-2004 by devmim]

Originally posted by Muaddib
I don't see any pentagon report in there. I just see the view of people who seem to be loyal to the Chinese government and some Chinese officials saying such report exist.
[edit on 19-6-2004 by Muaddib]

If your words are true, you dont need to see my view anymore, because I am not loyal to the Chinese government and not a Chinese official!!!

I am not a Chicom and only ordinary Chinese. I am olnly loyal to our country and the truth

Originally posted by devmim

Why should Chinese media be completly biased against the West??? No, it is your bias!!! Chinese has reported the whole process of this news and please see the above Chinese links carefully.

The original of the news does come from your US media

Why not does US media refute this news in stead of Taiwan's media???

BTW, is there such thing as freedom of the press in US?......
I have known the performance of your US media in Iraqi War, which is partly controlled by Bush governmet. Dont feel embarrassed to agree

Show me one source of Chinese media that speaks against the Chinese government, just one source "from China."

You want to see proof that the US has a free press? Look at the diverse newspapers that there are in the US. Do all US newspapers speak highly of the president or the administration? No. That shows that the US has a free press. Now, show me the same from the Chinese media...

Last time there was a major gathering in China to demonstrate against the government the government responded with shooting "real bullets" at your people and using tanks to roll over Chinese students.........and none of the students were armed.... According to the UN at least 1,000 Chinese people were killed in Tiananmen Square. That's what you call freedom of speech or the press in China?


[edit on 20-6-2004 by Muaddib]

This link is a good example of the evidence that points that this old country is still alive and kicking.....btw if communism is dead in Russia how come Putin is geting tough on freedom of speech in Russia and they are still having anti-american propaganda over there?

Oh yea, because our freedom of speech in the form of protest is not restricted here, yea right. Look at the last G-8 meeting, look at all the restricted areas for protest.
I'm pretty sure we have anti-Mulsim rhetoric over here.

You know why the Arabs, don't like, it's because of Israel. The founding members of Israel decided they could force their way into the Middle East, and the other Arab countries aren't dumb enough to think the West had not part in it. Not to mention all the funding Arab countries received from Western countries in the past.

You think Americans are good, I couldn't agree more. But the fact is is that US is not calling the shots. Bush is staunchly pro-Israel with many connections all around and members of the administration were so even before Bush's election (John Kerry is too by the way).

OK, OK, so we were attacked by terrorists on 9/11. Did you know most of them were Saudi Arabian?

So we attacked both Afghanistan and Iraq because of it, and so who will be next, you can bet a lot more. If you don't see this as a quest for American global domination (not really America though, they are just the faculty) then you are not even true to your neo-conservative views. That is precisely what the Bush Administration wants, refer to PNAC documents by members of his administration.

I think everyone forgets that these countries do have a common bond, namely economy.

I would not put it past China, Russia, US, UK to cause their own problems and then many years down the line use it to their advantage for global conquest. After all, we know about US Iraq and US al Qaeda ties and now we know where the other countries fit in.

They cause the problem and then offer the solution, get over it.

Originally posted by Muaddib

You want to see proof that the US has a free press? Look at the diverse newspapers that there are in the US. Do all US newspapers speak highly of the president or the administration? No. That shows that the US has a free press. Now, show me the same from the Chinese media...

[edit on 20-6-2004 by Muaddib]

Just as you said, the US has a free press. I admited it and appreciated it greatly. It is no doubt that the freedom of US is better than China, and you dont need to testify it to me because I agree with you in this point.

Originally posted by Muaddib

Show me one source of Chinese media that speaks against the Chinese government, just one source "from China."

[edit on 20-6-2004 by Muaddib]

What is the meaning "speaking against the Chinese government", which include criticizing? If so, I can give a few of links. Of course, they are not as freely as US media. But, I'm sure you are very surprised at their contents. I found you've always underestimated China's changes!!!!

The links are only in Chinese, do you know Chinese?

[edit on 20-6-2004 by devmim]

[edit on 20-6-2004 by devmim]

Only in Chinese? after all the links you posted translated in English there are only Chinese text where you say that the media is dissing the Chinese government...... If that was true it would have made it to the news media in other languages, not only Chinese.


Oh BTW, yeah, I can see the change of the Chinese government by the way they are handling the situation in Taiwan....the promise of some chinese officials that "war with the US is inevitable"... and by their threats to the US, with the help of the Russian government, if we continue building a missile defense system... It sounds like the same old China, well, perhaps now they are trying not to have the same economic problems that Russia fell into by using capitalism...but appart from that, sounds like the same old China.

Originally posted by Jamuhn

You know why the Arabs, don't like, it's because of Israel. The founding members of Israel decided they could force their way into the Middle East, and the other Arab countries aren't dumb enough to think the West had not part in it. Not to mention all the funding Arab countries received from Western countries in the past.

OK, OK, so we were attacked by terrorists on 9/11. Did you know most of them were Saudi Arabian?

They cause the problem and then offer the solution, get over it.

The people of Israel have as much of a right to be in the Middle East as the rest of the Arab people and your statement above about Israel shows that you either hate Jewish people or don't know enough about the history of why they are there.

There are radical Muslims all over the world...did you know there are radical Muslims that are Brittish, American, Russian, and probably other nationalities too?........

The thing is that their training camps are "mostly" all around the Middle East, and other areas, as it would be hard to have a training Al Qaeda camp, or other terrorist camp, in the US or in Brittain or some other countries without the authorities of those countries not finding these out.

[edit on 20-6-2004 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib

Oh BTW, yeah, I can see the change of the Chinese government by the way they are handling the situation in Taiwan....the promise of some chinese officials that "war with the US is inevitable"... and by their threats to the US, with the help of the Russian government, if we continue building a missile defense system... It sounds like the same old China, well, perhaps now they are trying not to have the same economic problems that Russia fell into by using capitalism...but appart from that, sounds like the same old China.

What you said above only demonstrate that you are out of logic and you have the paranoia for the hatred to communism according your or your parents' pitiful living experiences in some other socialist countries other than China. I'm much sympathying with you.

Who on earth did threaten to other??? Dont quote the scandals from your media, and please see the facts everybody can see distinctly!!!

Whose military power do often come into other country's neighborhood????

Who did stealthily support the other country's separatists and openly declare supporting this country's unification?????

Whose fighter planes did bomb other country's embassy?????

Whose scout planes did invade other country's territory????

And so on.

The answer: The aggressor is US, the passive country is China!!!!!

You are so poor person!!! i think it only wastes my time to talk with you again!!!!




[edit on 20-6-2004 by devmim]

[edit on 20-6-2004 by devmim]

Originally posted by devmim

Who on earth did threaten to other??? Dont quote the scandals from your media, and please see the facts everybody can see distinctly!!!

Whose military power do often come into other country's neighborhood????

Who did stealthily support the other country's separatists and openly declare supporting this country's unification?????

Whose fighter planes did bomb other country's embassy?????

Whose scout planes did invade other country's territory????

And so on.

The answer: The aggressor is US, the passive country is China!!!!!

The scandal from "US" media as you call it can be found in other countries' media also...
www.smh.com.au...

As for your separatist country comment, my guess is that you are talking about Taiwan. i do not know where you get that we support the unification, I guess you mean of Taiwan with China.... The Taiwanese people don't want to be part of China...and China never had any claim over Taiwan anyways, just their lust to have the economy of Taiwan for the betterment of communist China.

The comment on "whose plane bombed the other's embassy"....you will have to be more specific about that...
If you refer to the "1999" incident....you have to talk to democrats about that....Its not the first time that during the Clinton administration bombs somehow failed to hit the intended targets....and Clinton paid 28 million if I remember to the Chinese for that....accident

This is a western link.

www.cnn.com...

The following is a Chinese link.

www.fmprc.gov.cn...

The other comment about invading Chinese territory.....First off the Chinese government made the outrageous claim of territorial claims farther out than any other country in the world, and there have been several problems with other countries because of China's claims. Second if you are refering to the 2001 incident between a Chinese F-8 jet fighter and a US EP-3 Aries II, the US plane was well off Chinese territory....but after somehow a big clumsy US aircraft bumped into a "fast moving Chinese aircraft fighter" the US plane had to do an emergency landing..... The Chinese government systematically ripped the American plane appart to study it and probably even try to copy its technology...i guess for you that shows the Chinese government wants peace with the US....

" A similar policy of calculated vagueness is maintained by Beijing in respect of the area of the Natuna gas fields of Indonesia. At the fourth informal workshop on the South China Sea attended by China and the ASEAN countries held in Surabaya, Indonesia, in 1993, China, which had previously been reluctant to produce any documentary evidence in support of its claims, produced for the first time a map which indicated what it called its historic waters. The Indonesians noticed to their surprise that the Chinese claim line was marked between the Natuna Islands of Indonesia and a gas-bearing area located 250 KMs to the North-East of it, which lies within the limit of the Exclusive Economic Zone of 200 nautical miles (320 kms) claimed by Indonesia, thereby raising the suspicion that China probably looked upon this gas-bearing area also as historically belonging to it even though it had never claimed it in the past before the discovery of gas. "

Excerpted from.
www.saag.org...

" The Case of the Mischief Reef

China has on-going disputes with Vietnam, the Philippines, Malaysia and Brunei regarding conflicting claims of sovereignty over different islands in the Spratly group in the South China Sea, but its assertion of its claim over the Mischief Reef at the expense of the Philippines is an educative case study of how China doggedly pursues its irredentist territorial claims - by stealth, if possible, and by other means, including force, if necessary."

Excerpted from.
www.subcontinent.com...

China a passive country?


[edit on 20-6-2004 by Muaddib]

Also, btw i have nothing against chinese people, just the Chinese government and any communist government. None of them have ever shown to be good governments for the people as they are supposed to be, and the system itself would never work since there is no incentive for people to study for positions as doctors, lawyers, etc. This is one of the reasons why there are so many disgruntled Russian scientists, more so that in the States or other non-communist countries.

The people of Israel have as much of a right to be in the Middle East as the rest of the Arab people and your statement above about Israel shows that you either hate Jewish people or don't know enough about the history of why they are there

I knew you would say that. And you know what, not all Jews are the Jews of Biblical Israel. 90% of Jews, including the ones that were persecuted during World War II, became Jews after their Khazar ancestors converted, which was post-Biblical Israel. The Khazars were from the Caucas Mountains near Russia, not even from the right area. The original Jews have been in the region all throughout history and even during WWII, living in the Arab countries and around the Middle East.
Why would you even accuse me of hating Jews, if you obviously cannot even get your facts straight? You know why, because you don't know anything about Israel. I love Jews as I love everyone else, but just because I say there is a conspiracy between Israel and others you would say that. So you believe the Israeli government isn't allowed to be critized because they are Jewish? I can't even express how absurd that is.

Once again, realize that while all Israelis are pro-Jewish, not all Jews are pro-Israel....My god man.

Originally posted by Jamuhn

Why would you even accuse me of hating Jews, if you obviously cannot even get your facts straight?

Originally posted by Jamuhn
You know why the Arabs, don't like, it's because of Israel. The founding members of Israel decided they could force their way into the Middle East, and the other Arab countries aren't dumb enough to think the West had not part in it.

The above statement of yours seemed to be biased, seeming to blame Israel for all problems in the Middle East, which in itself seems to imply hatred towards Israel.

BTW, you got some of your facts messed up..... Of those over 5 million of Russian Jews, after the assassination of Alexander II, 90% settled in the US.

Here is a link.
www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk...

So most of the Russian Jews came to the United States and did not settled in, or had anything to do with Israel.


[edit on 21-6-2004 by Muaddib]

Well, the truth hurts. Israel is and does cause major problems in the Middle East, even the Bush Administration says so. I am against the fact that many people believe the Jewish people currently running Israel have a Biblical basis in Israel because they are actually the Khazar Jews. But Israel is the US's major ally in the Middle East, they are very,very close. And I am fairly certain there is a conflict of interest in this current War on the Middle East. FUnny how other countries with ties to al Qaeda are not being targeted.

BTW..I am not talking about a recent migration of Jews from the Caucas Region, but rather something that started over a thousand years ago and occured through the Huns invasion and so forth. Many of the Jews in Europe came from the Khazar dynasty, not Israel. We are not talking about Russians, look up Khazar...

[edit on 21-6-2004 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by Jamuhn
I am against the fact that many people believe the Jewish people currently running Israel have a Biblical basis in Israel because they are actually the Khazar Jews.
BTW..I am not talking about a recent migration of Jews from the Caucas Region, but rather something that started over a thousand years ago and occured through the Huns invasion and so forth. Many of the Jews in Europe came from the Khazar dynasty, not Israel. We are not talking about Russians, look up Khazar...

What exactly are you talking about? The Khazar lost their lands to the Rus prince Svyatosla in the 10th century, and some of the Khazar migrated to Romania, Hungary and Poland, but not Israel. Can you post a link to your information?

You know that Israel did not exist until later on right?...


[edit on 21-6-2004 by Muaddib]

Yes, exactly the same Khazars that went into those countries, including Germany, were the ones persecuted by the Nazis. And in their name was established Israel. That was my whole point that the establishment of Israel was not for the people who had the "Biblical right."

In 1989 around 1 million Jewish people immigrated to Israel, about 80% of those were Russian Jews, but there are roughly over 5 million Jewish people. The majority, 90%, of the Russian Jews migrated mostly to the States when Alexander II was assassinated. I don't think that 90% of Israeli Jews are descendants of Khazars. And anyway there is this.

" Land of Israel

Israel today (including the West Bank) occupies most of the land that it did during biblical times. Many proposals were made for locating a State for the Jewish people elsewhere, even in Kenya Africa. In the end, the social-historical importance of the Holy Land and Jerusalem to the Jewish people has proven essential to the Jewish Identity and it's rebuilding. Especially since approx. 1/3 of the world's Jewish population was destroyed as civilians during the last world war."

Biblical Israel


The above and picture and excerpt can be found at the following link.
www.eretzyisroel.org...

(Edited as I forgot to put a link and credit the site from where the picture and above statement can be found)



[edit on 22-6-2004 by Muaddib]

Yea, thats what i was sayin, there were the real Biblical Israeli Jews...I think they are called Sephardic, and those guys have been around the Middle East forever. But then 90% of Jews WORLDWIDE are Khazarian. Many of these flooded to Israel as well, but I think you are right that the bulk are Sephardic.
I think the creation of an Israeli state was great especially considering the prosecution by all Jews throughout history. But the first thing I don't like is the manner in which they established the state in the Middle East.
Even beyond that, I think its really messed up that these Khazars have usurped the power from the original Sephardic Jews. These Khazars largely do not speak for the Sephards and I think it is unjust the Israeli governments feelings towards their Arab neighbours and vice versa.
But the original Sephards have always lived in the various Arab countries and many are displeased by the manner in which Israel has conducted and continues to conduct itself.

Muaddib and devmim,

I am new on this site and have been following your debate on the China-Taiwan-US issue. I find this debate interesting, because I have lived and worked as a lawyer in both Taiwan and China. I am from Canada, but I do speak some Chinese although I cannot read well enough to read the Chinese language newspapers. I get Chinese views from Chinese friends, and I also consult US newsites daily for western information.

What I am trying to say is that I get the news from both sides. Judging from the arguments in your debate, I see both sides are very successful at spreading their own propaganda and making their own citizens believe it.

What the Chinese achieve with restrictions such as blocking websites - this is changing very fast Muaddib, CNN was blocked a few years ago but now I can access it from my Shanghai office - the US has achieved with the concentration of media ownership. Wether it be Conrad Black or the Aspen family in Canada, Clear Channel for radio and the big News networks there is an effective control in North America over what info makes it to prime-time news. Look at the IRaq war coverage. Spin spin and more spin. You are free to publish your rant, however you can be guaranteed that it will not be widely distributed. Micheal Moore in this respect is the exception rather than the rule. Both sides create an Other as an enemy, this enables them to better control their population.

Muaddib I think you need to come over here and check it out for yourself. Life is not freer in the US than it is in China, nor is it freer in Taiwan either. I don't have anyone following me around here. I am in China now, writing this to you. I can do what I want. So the old cliche that that China is an evil communist country, well it's simply not true anymore. It calls itself a communist country but let me tell you one thing: China is not communist, it has become an authoritarian regime with a capitalist economy and huge social policies. The bottom line is that China means business right now. It's easier to start a company here than it is in France for example. Even for foreigners things are being made simpler since China joined the WTO in 2002. The country is completely reforming its laws. The pace of modernization is flabbergasting, I am watching skyscrappers sprout week by week.

You will say that the government is authoritarian, and that is true. There is no nationwide election in China, however there are local ones. This is one area where progress needs to be made, along with government accountability and stemming corruption. Economic prosperity means that the country is slowly democratizing the political apparatus, but this will take time. Given the fiasco in the last presidential elections however, I am not sure that Americans are in the best position to hand out lessons on electoral politics.

This is too long, I will cut it short. But the last thing is about Taiwan. I don't like to hear people say "Taiwan wants to be independant" or "Taiwan wants to be part of China". These stats are bull#. Talk to the Taiwanese. The reality is that what Taiwanese want is a good job, a house, and possibly a car to upgrade from the scooter. What they want is a stable economy, and therefore what they want is the status-quo. Who is manipulating this issue? Governments of course. Chen sui bian buys weapons from the US and pisses off Beijing, he needs to justify his raison d'etre (his government wouldn't be around if Taiwan became part of China). Similarly, Beijing sees Taiwan as part of a global positionning of menacing US forces around the country (Okinawa - South Korea - Taiwan - Philippines - Afghanistan - bases in other central Asian countries, granted these forces are present, although they are not about to attack China) and maintains a useless tough rethoric. The government hypes the threat, we all need an evil empire.

The Taiwanese are just a pawn in these goestrategic games. Shame really.
Will write more soon, gotta go. Keep up the good debate.

just like a movie said about Geology, are what we need in the evolution of the government system in China.

Thank you Analyst for introducing the new concept of China here. It's really necessary for from what I saw here, it seems quite a few people still think about words like China, Russia or communist in a cold-war way. "An authoritarian regime with a capitalist economy and huge social policies", I think this definition is rather accurate.

Of course I am not denying that China's government is authoritarian, and it is a system not as optimized as America's democracy. As a matter of fact as a Chinese I am afraid that I sense more about the dark side than Analyst, who is a foreiner living in China. I mean, there are injustice and corruption in China, and we Chinese people believe that, although such things happen all over the world, we could systematicly reduce them if we get our system improved (or "political renovation", a term frequently used in China today). But please understand, a nation with 1.2 billion people and an at least 3000 year history of authoritarian trying to get democracy is not easy, can't happen over one night. Things ARE changing, though we people are complaining all the time about the rate at which the changes are happening, and angry about bad things happened due to this slow rate.

In this time-and-pressure game, America is playing a very important role. On one hand, you are our teacher in terms of democracy (oh, not "the fiasco in the last presidential election" though), and on another, too much pressure in a short period of time could screw things up. We just need time to develop our economics, then evolve the government one step by another, and that process should be in peace we hope, no more blood, no collapse of nation and starvation of people.

Guess I have talked too much. Just want you guys know what a Chinese's thought and hope. And apparently I am too off-topic. I don't know much about military, but I feel somehow some people treat China as an enemy and push China to a certain "axis" they arbitrarily defined. I am not too sure why but I don't think that is a good idea for people from both side could suffer the results.