Arizona Militia Engaging Mexican Narcos & Military, 2 Mexi KIA

reply to post by ProjectJimmy

What if they are American innocents butchered in their own homes by criminal invaders from a foreign nation? You going to cover that too?

reply to post by merkaba93


Militas. Gotta love them.

I'm actually playing Empire total war, and I don't think I ever use much beyond green coats and militia men. Not much use for line men who just stand in a line and die shooting.

Same rings true today. Militia wins.

reply to post by Ghost of Chewie


That's harsh man.

They are PEOPLE! They should under no circumstances be harmed if they are unarmed civilians.

They can can be detained and deported, but not murdered.

And, yes, it is murder to kill an unarmed civilian.

As I stated in my previous post, if ACM and the Cartels want to have it out at the border, that's fine...that is two sides that are willing to die for their causes.

But killing the poor and disenfranchised because of a line on a map is cold.

Originally posted by ChrisF231
reply to post by ProjectJimmy

 

What if they are American innocents butchered in their own homes by criminal invaders from a foreign nation? You going to cover that too?

Absolutely, innocent people are just that, civilians on either side are innocents. I'm not going to go down there with any anti-American bent, but I am going to be fair about it. When civilians die you'll hear about it from the international media, no matter which nation those civilians belong to.

reply to post by peck420


I understand that it was harsh, it was meant to be. Imagration is one thing, and is done legaly, the way my great-grandparents, and so many others have did it, but what we have going on on the Mexico/US border is not imigration, it is a non-military invasion.

I understand that the vast majority of these people come from Mexico with the hopes and dreams of a better life. That is understandable, from what I have seen things couldn't get much worse in Mexico. However, they need to do it LEGALLY!!

If they come over LEGALLY, then we know that they have at least passed a cursory criminal background check, and we are not letting in a bunch of mass murderers, and drug dealers. We have enough of them already.

If all of these people were honest-to-goodness "Suzie-homemaker" and "Joe-goodfather" types, I would say "Welcome to America, I hope your Dream comes true!", but then why would they come here in such a way that the very way they entered this country, is a crime.

The way it is, is that none of these people can come here without breaking the law, within the first halfsecond they are here.

If you go to somebodys house, do you break-in, make them feed you, make them care for you, and make them house you? NO!! Common courtesy would tell you you first, ask permission, then don't make a nuisance of your self. You feed yourself, care for yourself, and stay at the housing arrangement you made before you showed up (wether that is with them or elsewhere).

Why can't these people get that idea thru their heads? I understand that life sucks in Mexico, and America is a utopia by comparrison, but I also know that it doesn't take very long to do it the right way and then we (most if not all of the people against ILLEGAL imigration) would probablly welcome them into this country with open arms and a nice, "Hello neighbor!" I know I would.

But as for the post in question, that kind of sign may be the only kind of deterent that they listen to. I hope not.

And as for arrested and deported? Why should we sink farther into a financial hole, that we are digging fast enough already, to deport people that will just "jump the fence" as soon as we send them back?? And have you read the post on the new changes to the ICE? ("ICE Meltdown" I believe) They want to be caught, hell I want to be caught and I'm a citizen. Pick all my meals, free movies, little security, out passes for holidays? Sounds like summer camp. Should be HELL, so they wont want to come back and be held there.

I am sorry that my views seem to be "HARSH" but as the son of a Police Officer, I was taught that the only way that a civilization can function, is to follow the laws of the country.


[edit on 16-7-2010 by Ghost of Chewie]

reply to post by Ghost of Chewie


If the American government wasn't the cause of half the problem, I would be more willing to agree with you.

But, your government helped create this mess, and it is your government's responsibility to help clean it up in a humane manner.

Alot of americans seem to forget that a big portion of the illegal mexicans coming into the United States have left Mexico due to problems the US government helped create.

When I first started reading about illegal immigration, I was very "harsh" with my ideology aswell, but the more I have learned, the less inclined I am to blame the poor guy at the bottom for being stuck in a game played by players way above him.

Edit for spelling.

[edit on 16-7-2010 by peck420]

Originally posted by peck420
reply to post by Ghost of Chewie

 

If the American government wasn't the cause of half the problem, I would be more willing to agree with you.

But, your government helped create this mess, and it is your government's responsibility to help clean it up in a humane manner.

Alot of americans seem to forget that a big portion of the illegal mexicans coming into the United States have left Mexico due to problems the US government helped create.

When I first started reading about illegal immigration, I was very "harsh" with my ideology aswell, but the more I have learned, the less inclined I am to blame the poor guy at the bottom for being stuck in a game played by players way above him.

Enlighten me? How has the government of this country caused the problems in Mexico?

How could we screw Mexico up, we were to busy screwing up our country.

reply to post by Ghost of Chewie


I will give a couple of links, but the rest of the research is up to you.

source

"The surge in narcotics trafficking and drug addiction go hand-in-hand with destructive free trade policies which have fueled their growth. NAFTA, in particular, has triggered a massive migration of people who have been pushed off the land because they couldn't compete with heavily-subsidized agricultural products from the US. Many of these people drifted north to towns like Juarez which became a manufacturing hub in the 1990s. But Juarez's fortunes took a turn for the worse a few years later when competition from the Far East grew fiercer. Now most of the plants and factories have been boarded up and the work has been outsourced to China where subsistence wages are the norm. Naturally, young men have turned to the cartels as the only visible means of employment and upward mobility. That means that free trade has not only had a ruinous effect on the economy, but has also created an inexhaustible pool of recruits for the drug trade."

source

"Mexican peasants were heavily affected by such subsidies. After NAFTA was passed, they were unable to compete with heavily-subsidized food from the US. Consequently, they were forced to leave their land to work in factories for low wages and in harsh conditions. Many of these factories had relocated from the US, destroying US jobs, in search of lower labor and environmental standards. This "race to the bottom" works to almost everyone's disadvantage, except for the few who make economic policy."

The US and Mexican governments have screwed the people, and now there is a problem with people migrating to find work and food.

And you want to blame the poor guy at the bottom.

reply to post by peck420


No, actually I agree that the governments of the countrys screwed everything up for those under them. I agree that the guy at the bottom got poo'ed on, but if he/she wants to do what is right for thier familys (and I am all for that), then why would they do something illeagl to start.

I have friends that immagrated from Mexico, legally, and they say it isn't that hard, you just have to apply and pass the background check. If they can't pass the background check then we really don't want them here, we don't need murderers, drug dealers, and other criminals here, we have enough of our own here already.

Did I read that right? The US caused the downturn in Mexico by being prosperous? And I hate the very IDEA of NAFTA. I have worked with and for farmers in the US and NAFTA has damn near killed the family farm in America.

Thank you for the links. They were a good read and vary informative.
I will continue my research.

[edit on 16-7-2010 by Ghost of Chewie]

Originally posted by Ghost of Chewie

Originally posted by peck420
reply to post by Ghost of Chewie

 

If the American government wasn't the cause of half the problem, I would be more willing to agree with you.

But, your government helped create this mess, and it is your government's responsibility to help clean it up in a humane manner.

Alot of americans seem to forget that a big portion of the illegal mexicans coming into the United States have left Mexico due to problems the US government helped create.

When I first started reading about illegal immigration, I was very "harsh" with my ideology aswell, but the more I have learned, the less inclined I am to blame the poor guy at the bottom for being stuck in a game played by players way above him.

Enlighten me? How has the government of this country caused the problems in Mexico?

How could we screw Mexico up, we were to busy screwing up our country.

Oh that's cute, well let's see here where to start:

First and foremost, you the American people create the massive market for drugs that makes Mexico into a hellhole thanks to the cartels. If you enacted sane education programs (D.A.R.E. was a joke) and treated addiction as a disease instead of the absolutely ineffective and insane "War On Drugs" then you could actually cut down on the abuse in your country.

Secondly, American companies, backed by the US Government who refuses to put standards on worker treatment for international operations, abuse the hell out of the Mexican people in sweat shops. The answer here would be simple, federal regulation of all American-owned facilities in other nations.

Thirdly, American governmental meddling in the Mexican government has resulted in massive corruption because of the America-first policy taken in backing political candidates. Letting the Mexican people choose their own elected officials without pumping money into their system would help.

Fourth, The gun-culture of the United States, and lack of punishment for straw-buying has allowed a massive influx of firearms into Mexico. If the states started making straw-buying a felony, then this would go a long way to help the situation.

Fifth, the immigration policy of the United State totally ignores the massive refugee crisis that the above problems have created. Mexico is in a civil war, it's time the United States acknowledged this and allowed refugee status to those fleeing across the boarder for a better life.

Finally on top of this, the United States should focus their efforts on the violent boarder crossing criminals, they are the ones who have made Phoenix the kidnapping capital of America and kill ranchers on the boarder.

Originally posted by ProjectJimmy
Fourth, The gun-culture of the United States, and lack of punishment for straw-buying has allowed a massive influx of firearms into Mexico. If the states started making straw-buying a felony, then this would go a long way to help the situation.

My apologies, could you please explain the term "straw-buying"? I am not familiar with that term.

And I agree that we need to stop the drugs in this country, and the whole world would be better off if the politicians in DC would keep their collective noses in their own business, and stop trying to dictate what is the best for the entire world, I mean , good God, we cant even keep our own country above water, what in the hell makes them think they can tell ayone else how to run their country. And as for sweatshops, I hate them, but arn't those mostly because foreign governments let companies come in and do it? It seems to me that, the government that allows it to happen would be to blame as much as the US who imports their products, and the companies who do the practice in the first place. Why can't companies just pay people for what they work. My family and I activly try to buy from companies that do not use sweatshops, thats why most of our clothes and goods are locally sourced. Other than it's a good way to boost the local economy.

Thank you for your reply, more good stuff to ponder. thanks.

Originally posted by ProjectJimmy
Finally on top of this, the United States should focus their efforts on the violent boarder crossing criminals, they are the ones who have made Phoenix the kidnapping capital of America and kill ranchers on the boarder.

I agree whole hartedly!

But how do you supposed we figure out who are the violent ones? Ask them for their "thugs" card?

We do need to stop the "baddies, and druggers" but as soon as you do the cartels will start using the refugees to pack for them, and we are back where we started.

The only answer is to keep out all of the imagrants , except the legal ones.

[edit on 16-7-2010 by Ghost of Chewie]

Originally posted by ProjectJimmy
Secondly, American companies, backed by the US Government who refuses to put standards on worker treatment for international operations, abuse the hell out of the Mexican people in sweat shops. The answer here would be simple, federal regulation of all American-owned facilities in other nations.

Again, Full Agreement! Our country needs to keep an eye on the companies in other countrys , that we import from, to make sure that there is fair working conditions. But why arn't the countrys that these sweatshops are set up in regulating this as well? it seems that it would be their responsability, along with the common decency of the parent company, to make sure the employees are being treated fairly. And I am all for Fair treatment of workers. A man (or woman) should be paid fair for the work done, and children should never be forced to work at the expence of their childhood. That is stupiddity on a massive scale.

[edit on 16-7-2010 by Ghost of Chewie]

Reply to post by ProjectJimmy

Straw-purchasing *is* a felony, dude. Punishable by 10 yrs in prison and a hefty fine. Step down from the "blame the US" soapbox and open a law book...or even the ATF website. Its there; I would provide the link but the site doesn't get along well with my phone.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by Ghost of Chewie


Explaining straw-buying: This is when someone whom is legally entitled to buying firearms in their area knowingly purchases a gun for someone whom is not legally able to buy one such as a violent felon, illegal or mentally unstable person. The Mexican cartels and street gangs use a network of American citizens to make their gun purchases for them.

I fully acknowledge that enforcing a law that bans this practice is hard to do, because the prosecutors would have to be able to prove that the citizen had knowledge of the illegal status of the person they were buying the gun for, but even if you can get a few convictions out of this, it would go a long way to cutting down on the number of guns being smuggled into Mexico without hurting American's second amendment rights. I'm not for over-regulating gun shows or anything like that, beyond keeping records of sales. It's a hard one to tackle because of the disparity in gun laws between the US, which has a constitutional right to bear arms, and Mexico where it is illegal to own most guns.

I think another good thing would be legalizing guns in Mexico, but that's on their government not yours and don't even get me started on all the reforms and changes I think Mexico should make, that would go on for pages!

As for stopping the criminals instead of the innocents, I think the US could set up some kind of refugee program, whereby the actual residents of areas that are warzones in Mexico could get into the US legally. I think they should be monitored for a time while here too to make sure that they are not partaking in illegal activities, and they would have to work towards their citizenship still, it should not just be granted. Perhaps they could be given a choice, to either work for their citizenship over a course of years, as most any legal alien refugee in the US can, or to wait out the troubles in their area of Mexico before they go back or to another country they wish to.

I will agree though that nobody should be crossing the boarder illegally, and I am all for the enforcement of laws, so long as they are applied fairly and to everyone.

I also agree that working conditions should be done through international partnership. The US should have no obligation to take a strong-arm policing of their companies overseas, but when abuse is reported either by a human rights organization or especially the government of the country where it is happening, there should be an investigation and punishment of anyone whom has abused their workers.

Another thing that should be done to stop this I believe is that the United States should not give any kind of reward to any company for moving American jobs to other countries, ever. I'm not even an American but it seems absolutely insane to me that your country would want to loose jobs. One of the things that the US government should be trying to do is protect their own people's living, that's what most other countries in the world, including mine do. It's a large part of why we still have an industrial sector here.

America, especially America's government, should buy American every single chance they can. I understand globalization is reality, and cannot be turned around without killing what's left of everyone's economies, but it should be done with dignity and care instead of exploiting everyone and putting Americans out of work.

reply to post by netwarrior


Straw-buying is a federal felony but the federal system cannot handle all of the cases that come up, and in some states it is only a misdemeanor, hence why I specifically mentioned states in my post, not the federal government. Local and state systems have much higher capacity in their legal systems than the federal system does because of a limited number of prosecutors and courts.

If states enacted felony laws for straw-buying I believe you would see a much higher number of prosecutions and it would not clog the federal system as much.

Here's a story about one such situation where a federal prosecution of a straw-buyer actually made the newspaper in Milwaukee, where I used to live:

Milwaukee Straw-Buying Case Article

[edit on 16-7-2010 by ProjectJimmy]

Thanks to you for the deffinition, ProjectJimmy. I had never heard of it before, but I agree. Any person(s) caught doing a straw-purchase should be shot with the guns they are buying, and the person they are buying them for, because these guns will probably be used for violent crimes. Thank you for the enlightenment, folks. I do apreciate it.


[edit on 16-7-2010 by Ghost of Chewie]

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix

You don't serve in the U'S military for honor and duty, or even to protect our country. You serve to be a pawn in a game of political life and death for a few corrupt men who want more money and power.

I challenge anyone to prove me wrong.

Since WW2 every war we have been involved with has been unconstitutional and only to serve the needs of the men in power. No one has ever threatened this country where we needed to go and stop them before they invaded us. That is The Only reason America should have a military and the Only reason to go to war.

Now after all these years we have a situation that correct6ly counts as an illegal invasion and occupation and what are we doing? Nothing? That's ass backward. THIS IS the reason we need our military and or legal militia here and at the border to do their job.



[edit on 14-7-2010 by JohnPhoenix]

Hmmm thought provoking statement...How about we do this,
We could have 2 Militaries:
We will have one that serves those in power. The pay would be phenominal and you could travel and see the world. We could call it The UN Forces;
The other one doesnt pay anything, and you dont get to travel abroad, but you work for your Homeland and must be satisfied knowing you and your loved ones in the Homeland are safe and secure. Honor and Glory abounds in this Military. We could call it The US Armed Forces.
Of course both would be voluntary...I wonder which would see more recruits?

How about that for a concept?

[edit on 16-7-2010 by Elostone]

Originally posted by Asktheanimals
I wouldnt be surprised if the US government steps in and arrests said militia members. If they were smart they would not report their activities until they were out of the area. I doubt they would be so open about killing 2 people, which is why I wonder if this has any validity at all. Last I heard crossing the border was not a capitol offense.

Above post makes it sound as though as I am pro-illegal immigration and anti-militia. Those are not my sentiments at all, I would hate to see any militia get into trouble or for any incidents to occur that garner sympathy for the illegals.

[edit on 14-7-2010 by Asktheanimals]

crossing the border illegaly with an AK47 and an intent to kill makes you an invader.

if it doesnt, i dont know what does.

blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com...

Arizona neo-Nazis J.T. Ready and Harry Hughes have apparently been busy to judge by a recent item on Hughes' blog "Just Another Day... " There, he's posted photos of Ready, himself and others wearing camouflage and toting high-powered firearms as they watch over 11 illegal aliens that Hughes claims the group encountered Wednesday.

vandal49588.blogspot.com...