There is PLENTY of evidence of ZPE in action

reply to post by just an allusion


Oh, gotcha. Nope, no evidence of it to date (and unlikely for the foreseeable future).

Originally posted by john_bmth
reply to post by just an allusion

 

Oh, gotcha. Nope, no evidence of it to date (and unlikely for the foreseeable future).

"...evidence of..." WHAT? Apologies, I seem to have lost track of the train of the discussion, please clarify.

reply to post by just an allusion


What you said in your post, i.e. zero point energy/over unity

Originally posted by just an allusion

Originally posted by john_bmth
reply to post by just an allusion

 

Oh, gotcha. Nope, no evidence of it to date (and unlikely for the foreseeable future).

"...evidence of..." WHAT? Apologies, I seem to have lost track of the train of the discussion, please clarify.

If the temperature of something is really at zero degrees Kelvin, that's the lowest possible temperature it can have, there's no way to extract any heat energy from something that's at zero K.

Likewise, a system at zero point energy means it's at its lowest possible energy state so that means you can't extract energy from it. If you do an experiment that shows you DID extract energy from it, then it was NOT at Zero Point Energy, because it would have to have energy above its lowest possible state to be able to extract any energy from it. That is why even beyond the foreseeable future, we won't be extracting energy from zero point energy, because if we extract energy from it, that means it wasn't really at zero point. See the problem?

Originally posted by john_bmthWhat you said in your post, i.e. zero point energy/over unity

Originally posted by ArbitrageurIf the temperature of something is really at zero degrees Kelvin, that's the lowest possible temperature it can have, there's no way to extract any heat energy from something that's at zero K.

Likewise, a system at zero point energy means it's at its lowest possible energy state so that means you can't extract energy from it. If you do an experiment that shows you DID extract energy from it, then it was NOT at Zero Point Energy, because it would have to have energy above its lowest possible state to be able to extract any energy from it. That is why even beyond the foreseeable future, we won't be extracting energy from zero point energy, because if we extract energy from it, that means it wasn't really at zero point. See the problem?

So, it is your contentions that the phrase "zero point energy" is an oxymoron, or a misnomer at the very least...?

On the one hand (john_bmth) because, in the context in which the phrase has often been bantered about, i.e., as in relation to an energy supply or source, it is an impossibility to extract more energy from a systems' function than that which is required for it to achieve the output...Yes?

Then, on the other hand (Arbitrageur), it is your understanding that the phrase cancels itself out by producing an incongruous, seemingly self-contradictory meaning, and that ALL discussions of "zero-point energy" or "zero-point modules" (Stargate reference), are a misnomer and there is a need to devise a more so appropriate term to address the proposition...Yes?

My philosophy teacher once showed the class people who claimed to create "free energy" machines. A couple of the people were flat out frauds and like the OP said, they were not hindered. On the other hand, there were people who tried receiving patents and ended up on an endless goose chase. Firms would come out to investigate, see that it was working and play:

"The Waiting Game"

Others were relocated to locations where they couldn't make any fuss, bought off by governments or various energy companies who wanted this to stay hush hush. People even KNOW about Tesla now, but they still doubt free energy. It's a shame how people will automatically doubt anything that they haven't seen before, but I guess that's why many legendary artists stayed poor and lonely until death.

reply to post by prepared4truth


The majority of peoples minds are conditioned to follow and rely on conventional technologies to such a degree that they view anything new as "witch craft" or "magic" or simply "bogus".

For example, try having a discussion with a coal miner about solar or wind-produced energy, or with an oil man about using electricity to power our vehicles, and you'll find yourself locked in an endless loop of denial and incongruity, be it out of actual ignorance, or merely a steadfast sense of propagating job security.

It is because of this that it has become necessary to circumvent the normal channels of product disbursement to the public and to simply put it out there for all to see the reality of it so that there can be no deniers or naysayers, much the way that Musk has done with the Tesla Roadster (www.teslamotors.com...) and the Tesla Model S (
www.teslamotors.com...), leaving little, if anything, to doubt about the feasibility and real world application of the technology.

That and just a bunch of post-modern industrialists with their mouths agape who knelt down one day to tie their shoe laces only to see confetti scattered all about their feet who, ever so slowly and definitely reluctantly, came to the realization that the parade has passed them by.

I have done ALOT of research into this field myself... Being a physicist I believe Zero Point Energy is out there. Through many finding I discovered that many of these people who invent these tools are bought out because they really are a nobody when they created it so they take the money. Then, the people that are actually trying to use these items and get them in the society have been made to sign contracts, deal with harrassment by the government and some even killed to protect the industry...

It's apart of a huge conspiracy... I'm a believer of it all... I haven't quite figured out who is behind all of it or what their intentions are, other then control. You take a mass of people put them in the same place and tell them all they are apart of something bigger then them... Then you squeeze the economy to a wide split between the rich and the poor. Till its near slavery. Then you have the government support these people into even more poverty and that huge group of poverts is relying on the government to support them. The rich bask in their money and need not worry of the future or survival. They are blind. Unless they have opened their eyes and minds to reality of our failure to be a society that works together. We have no conciousness and the ones that do are helpless because its the people that are stuck in a world that asks to much to be worried about a collected conciousness.

We should all be aware of the suppression of technology.


Along with the first post....

It has alot to do with everything its the grand scheme of things. Government = Corperation, so it must run like one. The bosses don't tell their employees what they make a year... Or what might be coming like a down-fall... NO!!! They wait untill last minute sucking up all the resources they can to defend themselves and only themselves, then LAY-OFF they people that made them rich... Do any of us honestly think that whatever( if something) comes in 2012 that the government is going to be able to save us? # NO! We must gain as much knowledge as we can to be able to defend ourselves... Knowledge is power, and we must not abuse it like our ancesters.

[edit on 24-8-2010 by Theyarelying]

Originally posted by just an allusion
Then, on the other hand (Arbitrageur), it is your understanding that the phrase cancels itself out by producing an incongruous, seemingly self-contradictory meaning, and that ALL discussions of "zero-point energy" or "zero-point modules" (Stargate reference), are a misnomer and there is a need to devise a more so appropriate term to address the proposition...Yes?

Yes I think at the very least people need to stop calling it zero point energy if they expect to be able to get any energy out of it.

On the other hand, it saves me a lot of time researching ideas from ignorant people when they claim that they can extract energy from something that by definition is already at its lowest possible energy state:

Zero-point energy

Zero-point energy is the lowest possible energy that a quantum mechanical physical system may have and is the energy of the ground state...

The discovery of zero point energy did not alter the implausibility of perpetual motion machines. Much attention has been given to reputable science suggesting that zero point energy is infinite, but zero point energy is a minimum energy below which a thermodynamic system can never go, thus none of this energy can be withdrawn....

You can read the rest of the explanation at the link.

By the way we've already built the "Atmos clock" runs with no batteries or winding and extracts its energy from thin air without violating the laws of physics, so why are people so intent on trying to violate the laws of physics to extract energy, when we can extract energy from thin air without violating the laws of physics?

[edit on 24-8-2010 by Arbitrageur]

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

By the way we've already built the "Atmos clock" runs with no batteries or winding and extracts its energy from thin air without violating the laws of physics, so why are people so intent on trying to violate the laws of physics to extract energy, when we can extract energy from thin air without violating the laws of physics?

Been curious about that one myself as I've been the owner of a "perpetual motion, self-winding" watch that requires no batteries, or physical winding, for some time now.

With these examples having been &/or becoming, eventually, common knowledge, one is left to wonder why this simple form of mechanical engineering isn't upscaled to address any number of our current &/or developing energy needs..."?"

reply to post by just an allusion
My self-winding watch is less impressive, because if I decide to wear a different watch, and let it sit on my dresser, it stops running after a few days. So it's self winding from the motion of my arm moving.

The Atmos clock doesn't require any motion. It gets its energy literally out of thin air, just sitting there, so it's more impressive than my self-winding watch.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur
reply to post by just an allusion

 

My self-winding watch is less impressive, because if I decide to wear a different watch, and let it sit on my dresser, it stops running after a few days. So it's self winding from the motion of my arm moving.

The Atmos clock doesn't require any motion. It gets its energy literally out of thin air, just sitting there, so it's more impressive than my self-winding watch.

Yours, apparently, is operated by kinetic motion, mine is not.

As for the Atmos clock...An intriguing piece of machinery and, to a certain extent, you are correct about the "thin air" attribute, but only if it has been pre-calibrated at the shop to operate at higher altitudes.

You see, the 'trick' to the Atmos clock is the winding of the mainspring by a chemical reaction.

Specifically, there is a bellows (the round bulb/diaphragm located on the back of the clock) connected to the mainspring by a chain threaded through a couples pulleys that contains an amount of 'ethylene chloride', a chemical that is susceptible to temperature fluctuations, you know, like those that occur from day to night shifts, which causes the diaphragm to expand and contract, alternately pulling and releasing the connecting chain, which causes the winding of the mainspring.

So, nothing magical or particularly extraordinary, just the combination of a couple technologies to achieve a desired result, ingenious though it may be.

Originally posted by just an allusion
Yours, apparently, is operated by kinetic motion, mine is not.

Interesting, how does your watch get its power then?

As for the Atmos clock...An intriguing piece of machinery and, to a certain extent, you are correct about the "thin air" attribute, but only if it has been pre-calibrated at the shop to operate at higher altitudes.

The expression "thin air" was intended in its idiomatic use rather than literal. Therefore it was meant to say it appears to have no visible power source, rather than it works in Denver!

Out of thin air

if something appears or is made out of thin air, it suddenly and mysteriously appears or is made

Actually I don't know if it will work in Denver or not, it might.

But since we live in air, isn't it actually easier to extract energy from "thin air" (idiomatic usage) than from a vacuum? To get a vacuum we either need to travel outside the Earth's atmosphere or make a vacuum somehow if we don't leave the Earth. ("Vacuum energy" and "Zero point energy" are sometimes used interchangeably). I never said the Atmos clock was magic, in fact that was part of the point I was trying to make, there's no need to change the "magic" of perpetual motion machines/ZPE when we can make pretty much the same thing like the Atmos clock, without magic.

reply to post by Arbitrageur


I see what you're saying, i.e., we're arguing semantics (although, isn't it the general purview of scientists and engineers alike that "the proof is in the details"?) instead of addressing the actual issue under discussion, which begs the question: Are YOU aware of any "...evidence of ZPE in action"?

As for "vacuums"...A vacuum can be induced in a sealed &/or sealable chamber in our atmosphere through either mechanical or chemical processes, so that feat is one easily pulled off.

Originally posted by ArbitrageurInteresting, how does your watch get its power then?

Via my bodies' own bio-electro-chemical molecular interactions.

You see, as we've all learned in intro physics, everything is made up of atoms and since our bodies are also huge masses of atoms, we can generate electricity. A resting male can put out between 100 and 120 watts of energy, more than enough to power any number of the typical devices we've become accustomed to the use of in our daily lives.

Originally posted by ArbitrageurThe expression "thin air" was intended in its idiomatic use rather than literal. Therefore it was meant to say it appears to have no visible power source, rather than it works in Denver!

Out of thin air

if something appears or is made out of thin air, it suddenly and mysteriously appears or is made

Actually I don't know if it will work in Denver or not, it might.

But since we live in air, isn't it actually easier to extract energy from "thin air" (idiomatic usage) than from a vacuum?

Perhaps it is that I interpret things a bit too literally? All the same though, just as my watch is powered by the bio-electro-chemical molecular interactions contained within my body, the air itself is also a composition of interacting atoms and so, poses a potential source of power in and off itself, with the proper application of technology, whereas a vacuum, by it's very definition, would be absent of all manner of atomic molecules and so, unable to generate any form of power.

And, yes, with the proper adjustments to compensate for the altitude, the Atmos clock would work in Denver.

Originally posted by ArbitrageurTo get a vacuum we either need to travel outside the Earth's atmosphere or make a vacuum somehow if we don't leave the Earth. ("Vacuum energy" and "Zero point energy" are sometimes used interchangeably). I never said the Atmos clock was magic, in fact that was part of the point I was trying to make, there's no need to change the "magic" of perpetual motion machines/ZPE when we can make pretty much the same thing like the Atmos clock, without magic.

"Magic" is just as good of a euphemism as any other term used to describe something which we do not understand, like Arthur C. Clarke's third law of prediction states: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

However, as you've intuited, as it is, it would appear that "magic" and "technological innovation" are just as interchangeable as perhaps "Vacuum energy" and "Zero point energy" are, though "Vacuum energy" would, inevitably, prove to be an oxymoron.

someone needs to get a ZPM to harness that energy STAT

on another note, what happend to the 2 germans who had apparently mastered a free energy motor? O_o

reply to post by Arbitrageur


OK so there some abiguities over the term 'zero point energy'-Wiki is right in as much as the (thermodynamic) zero point is where all bodies stop moving-they are at their lowest possible enegy state, except for the electron, which NEVER stops moving-but that's a whole new topic in itself.
But all matter also has 'rest energy'-intrinsic mass energy, even when it has no kinetic component, i.e. it is not moving.
Bearden's view on a 'zero point' is SPATIAL, not thermal. A zero-point in space, where humungous amounts of energy may be channelled, this is also the origin of the phrase 'vacuum energy'-implying that it is not static or temperature related.
I hope this clears up any misunderstandings, i tend to agree with Bearden's hypotheses, even though his MEG (still) isn't on the market

reply to post by constant_thought


"on another note, what happend to the 2 germans who had apparently mastered a free energy motor? "

Zey vere taken avay voor qvestioning, ja?

reply to post by DutchBigBoy


Yes you are right, it's all about the money, power and control at any cost, with no regard to how this outdated technology is affecting our planet and the billions of people.

The people that are holding this back and the governments that have been bought out or blackmailed by these people all border (IMO) along being psychopatic.

They have no moral conscious, they only consider themselves with no regard for anyone else, even to the point of mucking up our planet. This to me, is true evil.

Originally posted by just an allusion

Originally posted by playswithmachinesIf it worked, they would be selling the machines themselves.

You mean like Elon Musk has and is doing with the (aptly named) Tesla Roadster and Model S:

blogs.discovermagazine.com...

www.caranddriver.com... _info/2012_tesla_model_s_sedan/tes_model_s_12_burstein_13/2077202-1-eng-US/tes_model_s_12_burstein_13_cd_gallery.jpg


- "?" -

Apologies, people, just noticed that the link was broken to the second vehicle:

www.teslamotors.com...

All better now, one hopes....