Operation Truth: Toxic Rain Reality Check Testing

reply to post by wishes


nm, thought you were Curiousisall, lol.

reply to post by sweetliberty


I'm extremely curious! But I also respect the time it takes to do things proper and rushing before its truly ready just to satisfy personal curiosity (mine included) should not be the motive - I'm absolutely positive the wait will be worth it.

I know Pax and Clouds are working extremely hard and long to get this together, there's just a lot involved to get it 'together' so that it presents properly, otherwise it will all be for naught and no one will benefit.

Originally posted by Dilligaf28
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

Find out about the Missouri rain samples! They said they would have an article up over the weekend but have yet to post anything and I am very curious.

I would like to address the statement I made concerning the release of our results of the Missouri rain sample.
I did say an article would be written and posted on the testherain last weekend.

The truth is we do have the results. However, I don't think you understand the complexity of what we have accomplished. This was not a simple undertaking by any means. This is not a "hoax" nor a lie, nor a conspiratorial issue. We did not gather rain and test it with a simple dip stick! For months we have worked tirelessly to gain objective scientific results. We organized and pursued a double blind study that had to meet the requirements of the scientific community. Sure, I could just tell you what was discovered, but our research was so ground breaking that we have been approached to publish our results as well as our study. This means the research was so sound that it would be written up in scientific journals everywhere and accepted by the scientific community as valid.

There are several reasons for not posting our results yet. Legalities, being the biggest issue. Please try and understand there is a right way to do something and a wrong way. This is not a "halfass" project we launched. We have been to the wall and back.

Our findings once released will be extremely controversial. They are of such a delicate nature that we must be very careful. No doubt, once we tell the world, there will most likely be consequences. We are weighing the proper way to do this. I am asking for your patience, but I will not beg. Either you understand and accept what I have said or you don't. We promise to let you know soon.


Pax

reply to post by wishes


I am not sure what it is that you hope I have learned. You have taught nothing and offered nothing but a flimsy excuse for your SPAM.

How is it digression to want to see the results of the test?

reply to post by paxnatus


Pax,

I must admit to being somewhat confused by your response to me. While I respect the complexity of the effort you have undertaken there are some points in your post that I have to get clarification on. Please understand I am not attacking you or your project. I just want to make sure I have a clear understanding and there aren't any mental sticking points for me to mull over.

A double blind study is indeed an amazingly complex and intricately detailed undertaking and I thank you for having the fortitude to engage in the effort! What I do not understand is given the complexity of what you have organized I find it somewhat incongruent that you gave no consideration to the legalities of what you were doing until the results of the tests were already in hand. Respectfully I must say that to have given no consideration of legalities while organizing such a logistically complex study is, frankly, hard to believe. I think anyone whom capable of doing what you have done would have considered the legalities from the onset of the project. You defended your study with

][iThis is not a "halfass" project we launched

[I]
but surely to have given no consideration to legality from the onset of the project could be deemed using the expletive you used in the above quote.

I am not sure why you defended your work against it being a hoax. I am not aware that this accusation has been made for you to feel compelled to defend against. I also must say the closing of your post had somewhat of an authoritarian intimidation style which bordered on hostility to it IMO. I sincerely hope you were not compelled by my curiosity to use that tone!

In closing I must say that I want to be able to move past the points I find "sticky". I would like your help in doing that. Please do not take offense at my earnest desire to dismiss any "sticky" points so that I may fully appreciate your endeavor.

Pax & Clouds have been involved in legalities from the beginning. They have been working extremely hard in not only putting the project together, but making sure they absolutely had top scientist & a qualified lab for testing with everything kept confidential. As far as I know there very few labs that have the capability to test accurately for all the possible chemicals we're looking for as well as understanding the results, parameters, & the possible effects to the all living plants & creatures. When you are involved in any major projects large or small there are always on going legal issues, many changes occur, & etc...Pax & Clouds are trying their best to make sure everything is right to the "T". It would be sad if they put all this work into this project with everything being right up to the last second & have some minute problem discredit it all.
Extensive lab testing is very involved & time consuming. There are many controls & parameters that have to be set up & etc...I know it seems like a long time to wait for the results but think about it...the project was launched sometime in Aug; Pax & Mike spent a tremendous amount of time researching & choosing the right scientist & testing lab; rain samples are being collected & submitted from all over the US & other countries; they also have to wait to receive the samples, it doesn't always rain, I didn't have rain from the end of May until the middle of Sept, so with that being said many samples from different areas are needed to test...

I did not mean to drag that on...& that is just barely a touch of what is all involved...However, we can't
forget that Pax & Clouds are people who have families too. I can see them possibly getting a little over whelmed with the 1st test results coming in & all the ramifications to deal with on top of HOLIDAY season especially if they have kids. I am glad we have people putting it out on the line in order to get honest results from a double blind study being backed by the scientific community. And it's people from our community here at ATS that made it happen. I feel honored being part of Test the Rain project.

Ektar

reply to post by Ektar


Again let me say that I am anxiously awaiting the results of this unprecedented but long overdue "grassroots" effort! However, I must point out that we are not waiting for the results. We are waiting for Pax and Cloud to post at least the one result we know they have to www.testthereain.com. They have said themselves that they have the results of the MO rain in hand and had previously said they would be posted the weekend of October 5, 6 ,7. Its not that we have results to wait for that makes the wait so excruciating; its that Pax and Cloud have the results and haven't posted them yet. That kind of suspense is absolutely killing me!!

There is another thing I am curious about. How does one legally expose a government/industrial coverup? I think rather than worry about how to legally do this its time to let the steam they have gathered blow the whistle on this issue once and for all! Its far to important of an issue to keep the lid on anymore!

It almost seems like a disservice to all those sick people in the gulf and a disgrace to the families of those that have already passed to hold back information that could potentially help bring about resolution and maybe even precious closure when you think about it.

Originally posted by Dilligaf28
reply to post by Ektar

 

Again let me say that I am anxiously awaiting the results of this unprecedented but long overdue "grassroots" effort! However, I must point out that we are not waiting for the results. We are waiting for Pax and Cloud to post at least the one result we know they have to www.testthereain.com. They have said themselves that they have the results of the MO rain in hand and had previously said they would be posted the weekend of October 5, 6 ,7. Its not that we have results to wait for that makes the wait so excruciating; its that Pax and Cloud have the results and haven't posted them yet. That kind of suspense is absolutely killing me!!

There is another thing I am curious about. How does one legally expose a government/industrial coverup? I think rather than worry about how to legally do this its time to let the steam they have gathered blow the whistle on this issue once and for all! Its far to important of an issue to keep the lid on anymore!

It almost seems like a disservice to all those sick people in the gulf and a disgrace to the families of those that have already passed to hold back information that could bring about resolution and closure when you think about it.

It wouldn't hurt to be a little more patient and a lot less demanding. It is THEIR decision how and when to release this. I know what Pax said but that was at first thought - on second thought it is WISEST for them to think carefully about how they want this released because once it's said it's OUT THERE and will NOT be retrievable or given a second chance!

Is it best to release one result or wait until its substantiated (or not) with the others? Is it best to release one result and risk the entire remaining samples somehow mysteriously 'disappearing' before being secured? Which is the safest and most effective for them? Should they take an extra few days and BE SURE of their procedure of just spit out one result to satisfy you?

To infer they are doing a 'disservice' and 'disgrace to their families' and 'holding back' 'if you think about it' is not what anyone with half a brain would conclude after "thinking about it". They would conclude just as Ektar, myself and some others have. Have you even tried asking them nicely when we might expect to hear anything instead of throwing insults for taking some extra time to be sure of how they want to reveal this??? Because 'if you think about it' civilized, mature people would first go to the source and ask themselves (like I do) instead of trying to bully them and use sufferers to try and lay guilt trips on them. Shame on you! What have YOU done or CONTRIBUTED to anything to put yourself so far above everyone else?!

You even questioned why they should take any time for legalities? It's not YOUR ass on the line, is it? You don't even deserve to be in the front row (as everyone here is) for these. You are not showing any respect or consideration for their hard work and risks they're taking """for the sake of everything!"""

I haven't tested or researched ANYTHING in regard to the Gulf of Mexico and I can still tell you with authority that the "toxic rain" conspiracy theory is a lot of baloney. How do I prove it, with no evidence? Same way the conspiracy theorists prove it with no evidence — just KEEP REPEATING it until people start believing it.


audience roars in agreement

— Zesko Whirligan

Originally posted by Zesko Whirligan
I haven't tested or researched ANYTHING in regard to the Gulf of Mexico and I can still tell you with authority that the "toxic rain" conspiracy theory is a lot of baloney. How do I prove it, with no evidence? Same way the conspiracy theorists prove it with no evidence — just KEEP REPEATING it until people start believing it.

audience roars in agreement

— Zesko Whirligan

edit on 11/13/2010 by Zesko Whirligan because: typo

Honestly, truly, I wish with my entire being you were right - but it's important to not be so blinded as to miss the obvious either and I personally do believe the rain is toxic. We'll see

I'm sorry, but perhaps I am missing something obvious to everyone else.

What exact legalities could be faced concerning simply posting results of tests? What are the legal risks of just telling the truth? Are we really talking about legal jeopardy? And if so, at what level? What law or laws might it be that are being considered that non-biased laboratory testing and the results thereof would put the collectors of data, the testers of the samples, and the public posters of the results in jeopardy of?

Facts are facts. If they are damaging, the public release of such facts nor the releaser is at fault. It would be the entity who caused such facts to be damaging that would be at risk of legal jeopardy.

Now if the reporting contains conjectures or conclusions that are simply extrapolations of the data and test results, and they are stated as FACTS instead of opinions, well yep, that could be treading on legally shifting sand.

Hopefully I didn't wake up this morning in a country whereby telling the truth has now become illegal.

reply to post by wishes


Wishes,

I am not sure why you are addressing me with such disdain, disrespect, and outright hostility. I am right here in the front row and on the edge of my seat waiting for these results and for the fallout from them just like everyone else is. I do not understand why you chose to lambast me with such a reply as you did. I wasn't aware that I had replied to you and in fact it does seem that my reply was directed to a post by Ektar. Granted you (Wishes) and Ektar have both utilized similar grammar and syntax, as well as a methodology bordering on SPAM within these threads recently, and you both are very strong defenders of Pax and Cloud's work so I could see where a mistake in whom replied to whom could easily have been made by you.

I have addressed Pax and Cloud with my statements not you Wishes. I do rather wish myself (pun somewhat intended) that you would allow Pax and Cloud an opportunity to respond to me, or if not them then whomever I was addressing, before you offer your observations and insights. I do feel that given that Pax and Cloud are the one's with the drive to undertake such a task that they are indeed the most appropriate people to respond to my query.

I do not see a need to individually quote the items within your post that warrant a label of hostile or any other such label. I do want to address something you said as it is so utterly incredulous that I cannot bear to ignore it. You said "shame on you" to me! You shamed me for asking questions with the sole intent of more clearly understanding an effort I already applaud. You also asked what I have done to contribute to this effort. What I have done or have not done should not be discussed! If you are truly so concerned with the scientific integrity of their study I do not think you would ask someone to reveal if that someone has sent in samples. I think that would take a blind out of double blind unless I am mistaken. Let me remind you that I only want to insure that the discussion on this thread stays true to the topic of Pax and Cloud's utterly amazing efforts!

I sincerely hope that my statement to you here today does not prompt another reply from you that, in order to match tone and hostility as well as utter contempt in moviedom, would have to be presented by a giant multi screen projected face over a room of uniformly dressed workers. Please do not be so hostile and condescending towards me. I truly feel I haven't done anything to provoke you and that you are bullying me for not staying in line like a good little sheep. This attitude is very distressing to me and is seriously damaging to your credibility. Also if you are trying to censor people from asking questions of this study you are in danger of damaging the credibility of the study as well. Do you think Pax and Cloud do not want people to ask them questions? Do you speak on their behalf officially or have you just taken upon yourself to speak for them?

Sincerely

Dilligaf

Wow, I had no idea that your study was going to be published. That's pretty intense as the results must be pretty serious for this to be happening. I, too, am curious as to what legalities prevent you from posting the results, but I know little about all of this and just hope the results are posted soon. I'll keep checking this thread for those results. Get them to us as fast as you can!

reply to post by Dilligaf28


It was your statement : """It almost seems like a disservice to all those sick people in the gulf and a disgrace to the families of those that have already passed to hold back information that could bring about resolution and closure when you think about it.""" that caused the 'shame on you' response from me for using those poor people there as an excuse to chastise, bully, Clouds and Pax for not being fast enough for your liking.

I wasn't asking for anything confidential to be revealed, I simply asked what you have done to help in the Gulf since you are so quick to sit back and criticize others who ARE doing something for being too slow at it for your satisfaction instead of being even remotely supportive and respectful of their process.

You again are more focused on being right than being constructive. Also since you've now mentioned 'spam' at least three times, please check the definition before using it again so you will know what you're really talking about.

Legalities - anyone who has to ask what legalities there are has no idea what they're asking. It's their ass on the line, period. It will be well worth the wait to get these results. It won't be much longer. People who like to throw insults at them (like you did) gets me irked.

Do I officially speak for them? No. Do they know who I am and what I'm posting? Most definitely! I've known both of them for about two years and have been helping them behind the scenes with this and communicate with both of them regularly.

It.... won't.... be.... much.... longer.... before.... these.... are.... released.... Be impatient and anxious (we all are!), just don't throw insults around like it's productive or mature, because it isn't. Try adding something constructive and supportive to these threads instead.

Re Legalities - to clarify -

It is in their interest to cover their asses before presenting this stuff, isn't it? Shouldn't they take a few extra days to ask what about this? what about that? and then be prepared for those when (not if) it occurs?

There is no legality in them posting the results - there is legality "if" these results are to be used to hold you-know-who accountable in that they be iron clad from the beginning because that's the first thing that will be attacked (their authenticity and conclusions) from TPTB, otherwise the results will have NO value to HELP ANYONE other than satisfying people's curiosity about what is in the rain!

There is a safer way to release these results and I'm expecting (hoping) that is what they're doing - double checking - I'm just as impatient as everyone else to see them all!!! - they are doing it as fast as possible under the circumstances, I know this. Just a little more patience and it will be well worth the wait!

reply to post by wishes


Wishes,

I have noted your opinion on the matters that I am curious about. Thank you for your input. I look forward to hearing more from Cloud and Pax as they are obviously better able to offer a definitive answer to me. No offense regarding your opinions of what I have queried but I would rather base my view on Pax and Cloud's statements/standings. The source is always the best place to go wouldn't you agree?

I really do appreciate your opinion though!

Dilligaf

So how much of the intellectual property will the publisher own?

2nd

reply to post by Dilligaf28


Sorry I wasn't more clear in my posting re legal issues. I was referring to legalities of making sure everything that needed to be dealt with had been covered, as things often change, & insuring your butt is covered if you are making something publicized in the media...so to say. The government/industrial cover up you mentioned never entered my mind. I was just trying to explain what might be going on in a nice simple round about way...that's all.
Cheers
Ektar

Originally posted by wishes
Re Legalities - to clarify -

It is in their interest to cover their asses before presenting this stuff, isn't it? Shouldn't they take a few extra days to ask what about this? what about that? and then be prepared for those when (not if) it occurs?

There is no legality in them posting the results - there is legality "if" these results are to be used to hold you-know-who accountable in that they be iron clad from the beginning because that's the first thing that will be attacked (their authenticity and conclusions) from TPTB, otherwise the results will have NO value to HELP ANYONE other than satisfying people's curiosity about what is in the rain!

There is a safer way to release these results and I'm expecting (hoping) that is what they're doing - double checking - I'm just as impatient as everyone else to see them all!!! - they are doing it as fast as possible under the circumstances, I know this. Just a little more patience and it will be well worth the wait!

Perhaps so..... But if there actually ARE results that prove that there is a very serious problem afoot, wouldn't TIME be of the essence to try to mitigate the damages as much as possible? Speaking of legalities, if an entity knows of damages being inflicted by circumstances they have knowledge of and NEGLECTS or WITHHOLDS such information, will they not then be liable for damages that withholding of information may cause?

Yep, the legal world is a messy place to stick your toes into. If you are afraid to do that, you will be paralyzed by the fear and wind up doing nothing at all.... How many people have died because citizens were afraid to try to render basic first aid to a victim of a medical emergency because of the liability they would incur doing so? Basically, perhaps the best course is "damn the torpedoes.....", if your conscience is clear.

reply to post by Rich Z

if an entity knows of damages being inflicted by circumstances they have knowledge of and NEGLECTS or WITHHOLDS such information, will they not then be liable for damages that withholding of information may cause?

Nice try Rich, but we're not buying it. Are you that gullible to think that once we tell the people of ATS
somehow that is miraculously going to make a difference. That me or you or millions of us will be able to undo the damage.

We have results and will release them soon. But maybe we need to shore up our on personal safety before we do that. A little common sense goes a long way. You just like thousands of others want and deserve to know. Soon Rich soon.

Pax