Why does God allow the existance of people who go to hell?

reply to post by adjensen


Hi,
How can you say that God has love for humanity? Does a scientist have love for the mouse as he lets it run through the maze? The world is full of contradicting each other but equally making sense spiritual beliefs.

Originally posted by Stateless Person
Hi,
How can you say that God has love for humanity? Does a scientist have love for the mouse as he lets it run through the maze? The world is full of contradicting each other but equally making sense spiritual beliefs.

The Scientist did not create the mouse though. He/she therefore does not have an innate understanding of the nature and purpose of the mouse in the sense that God would in relation to humans.

In the religion before Christianity (the Greek Pantheon) EVERYONE went to hell... it was the final resting place of the dead. Olympus (heaven) was reserved for demigods and Gods. So, this concept of hell, it's not new and I think that it's evolved into something to scare little children into behaving.

That being said, I don't think that there is a hell. I think that when God calls us we either stay where ever we are called to OR we come back here and start again (reincarnate)... maybe that is punishment enough, being cast out from eternity, left to suffer in a miserable and sometimes heartless world... sounds like hell to me. Think about it. 80 or so years of life, a lot of it mired in tribulation and conflict, sure there are lots of good things, but there is an intense negativity on this planet that can be described as hellish.

reply to post by AllIsOne

You await a worthier opponent? One to battle your train of thought? No, my friend. There is no battle, there is only wisdom.

Clearly you are not that worthier opponent.

Not if you think that simple-minded parable you quoted is profound or difficult to understand. As far as transcendence goes, you're at kindergarten level, kid.

And as for the spiritual superiority you tacitly assume, well, Pharasaical holier-than-thouness is equally unenlightened, fatuous and kickable whether the Pharisee is Jewish or a smug, self-blinded Zen Buddhist.

And by the way, All is not One. You have been misinformed.

[edit on 25/7/10 by Astyanax]

reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO


Well, you are not alone. It doesn't make sense to a lot of people. People are still, and have always been, trying to make sense of it.

People are their own worst enemy.

This is utopia. Ask the animals.

We are simply willfull, and so never satisfied.

reply to post by monkeySEEmonkeyDO


Something else you must know...if I had answered this without bothering to read your elaboration...my answer would have been hurtful. You should forgive people who may misunderstand you. It will always happen.

Dear People,

God is not something outside of you. God is within you. You are one with God and all of Creation. You are in charge of your own life. You make the decisions and choices in every moment that lead to the next. You know if you are living your life up to the highest possible standards. You control your thoughts and actions. There is no one and nothing more than you. You are the point of your own existence. There are no excuses.

In order for this world to change, WE MUST FIRST CHANGE OURSELVES.

In the end right, wrong, good, bad, left, right, up, down, are all perceptions and IDEAS. This is polarity, for one to exist the opposite equal must too. It is all around you it is everything and everywhere. The Yin and Yang.

When it comes to morality, simply put yourself in the other person’s position and ask. If I were this being would I want this done to me?

TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOURSELF. BE AWARE OF YOURSELF IN EVERY MOMENT.

Remember life is about balance.

Stop looking for a God outside of yourself.

It is time for humanity to stand equal and one with all life.

Let go of your Ego!

Because everybody has a right to their choice. and i understand that god would know in advance, but it is the persons right to make that choice for themself. are you saying that since your an atheist, you dont deserve a right to life? no, you do deserve a life, and thats why you have one. Which of course this all depends on your religious beleifs.

reply to post by EQUAL73




Of course. Which would make sense considering god gave us free will. You can be religious and do what you want, that is the beauty of free will, and its not just religion that blocks peoples rights to free-will. there is also something called the law.

God is not like us. He does not need anything or anyone. He willed all that is into existence. He sustains His creation out of His mercy. His choices do not need any cause or reason. If He wants, He could put everything into Hell, and it would not be unjust in the least. If He wants, He could put everything into Paradise, and it would only be out of His mercy. One could similarly ask, "Why does God create anyone to put into Paradise?" and it would be an equally valid question.

That said, God also promises to judge everyone justly and that His mercy outweighs His wrath. So everyone has a chance to be spared from Hell, to achieve Paradise. He commands us not to despair but rather to have hope and belief in Him at all times. He created us with purpose. He created us with free will. We experience time linearly, so we face choices in our lives. We can do good or do evil. God tests us and continues to give us chance after chance. Then, we die and we are resurrected to stand before God. He declares that no one will be wronged in the least. Every deed, no matter how insignificant, will be examined. God will look at our hearts, our intentions, as well. Those who choose evil, rebelling against God, are the people of Hell. Those who choose good, submitting to God, are the people of Paradise.

These are my beliefs as a Muslim by the way.

I leave with a couple questions: If there is no Paradise or Hell, what is the point of trying to be righteous when one is surrounded by misery? If there is no Paradise or Hell, then where is there reward for those who sacrificed their lives helping others and where is there punishment for those who got away with murdering millions?

Originally posted by muftanan
God is not like us. He does not need anything or anyone. He willed all that is into existence.

Why did He bother, if He didn't need it?

He sustains His creation out of His mercy.

Why is it, then, so full of pain, misery, suffering and death, not just for humans but for all living things?

His choices do not need any cause or reason.

That's not up to Him, mate. If other people want a reason, then a reason is needed, whatever God thinks. If He gave human beings free will, then the necessity or otherwise of supplying reasons for His behaviour is no longer up to Him, all-powerful though He may be. Why should God be held to lower standards than His creation is?

If He wants, He could put everything into Hell, and it would not be unjust in the least.

Why not? Because God decides what justice is? But then, if God keeps changing the definition of justice to suit Himself, how can He expect His creation to understand the nature of justice or to act justly?

If He wants, He could put everything into Paradise, and it would only be out of His mercy.

I think you mean caprice, not mercy.

One could similarly ask, "Why does God create anyone to put into Paradise?" and it would be an equally valid question.

An equally meaningless one, rather.

If there is no Paradise or Hell, what is the point of trying to be righteous when one is surrounded by misery?

What is 'righteous'? A nonsense word. If you mean 'what is the point of trying to behave morally?' then the point is simply that living amongst others of our species demands tolerance, cooperation, reciprocity, a degree of alturism and submission to recognized authority so long as the demands of that authority do not contradict the foregoing values. These values are the basis of all morality. No divine authority or religious sanction is required to develop or justify moral behaviour.

If there is no Paradise or Hell, then where is there reward for those who sacrificed their lives helping others and where is there punishment for those who got away with murdering millions?

On Earth, or nowhere. Neither is guaranteed. Get over it.

[edit on 2/8/10 by Astyanax]

reply to post by muftanan

If there is no Paradise or Hell, what is the point of trying to be righteous when one is surrounded by misery?

Interesting question. It's like you're trying to hint that without God, heaven or hell, then there is no point in being moral, not even for the sake of simply being moral.

Honestly, religious people scare the crap out of me for such statements. If you can be so bold as to question the basis of morality *if* there was no God or reward for moral behavior, then honestly, how moral are you really?

If there is no Paradise or Hell, then where is there reward for those who sacrificed their lives helping others and where is there punishment for those who got away with murdering millions?

Another interesting question...

So, one can not do good without reward for doing good? Is that your personal mindset or is this same line of questioning you posed something that all religious people think about before they do 'good'?

It simply amazes me that religious people bring up acts of kindness and morality as only being able to exist if and only if God and his reward system exists to compensate for those acts. You folk are not moral or kind, your simply selfish doing good and moral deeds in hopes that God will pamper you in the afterlife. Selfish little trolls is what you are.

When it comes to spirituality and religion, we are constantly being told that we are all a part of God. So if God sends us to hell, he basically sending himself to hell. Maybe he likes hell and just wants to experience what it's like. Unfortunately some of us don't have a say in the matter.

Originally posted by sirnexIt simply amazes me that religious people bring up acts of kindness and morality as only being able to exist if and only if God and his reward system exists to compensate for those acts. You folk are not moral or kind, your simply selfish doing good and moral deeds in hopes that God will pamper you in the afterlife. Selfish little trolls is what you are.

And yet you complain religious people are irrational. Take your pick, are they irrational or are you? Can't have it both ways. If there's really no rational reason to be moral in a given situation, is it really irrational to not be moral?

One could argue people are simply selfish, only being moral to survive longer and spread their genes. They are not moral for the sake of being moral. How dare they! Selfish bastards!

Originally posted by Maddogkull
Who knows the god of the bible might be real, but not exactly how they portray him in the bible. Remember the bible was written by man. Men make A LOT of mistakes. A god would not send a good person to hell because he did not believe in a guy who existed 2000 years ago. That would defeat the perfectness of god. Honestly I believe in the god of karma. Hell is subjective. If you are a good person you would not go to hell, if you are a bad person you will go to hell. I also read that eternity was originally translated from "eon". Meaning that no one stay in hell "forever" but for a period of time, i they did bad things.

how do you exactly define good and bad?

there's stealing sweets as a child bad..
robbing a bank bad...
killing your family bad..
killing millions of innocent people bad..
and michael jackson bad..

but what defines the bad that goes to hell, and the bad that is OK?

and to another question about people who don't know about god/the bible, would this also be the same for somebody who is mentally ill? if somebody burns down a hospital because they are insane, are they any more "bad" than you and i?

Heaven and hell are not places you will go when you die. Heaven and hell are states of being. To know god is heaven and to feel as though you are without god is hell. God is not what you are looking for, what you are looking from is what you are looking for. God can be talked about all day, but never seen. It is the transparent presence that is always here, that is you. When we step out of this now moment, into what is not happening, a made up story, we step out of heaven.
Why are people so blind to this moment? This moment is still and peaceful.
The mind ( a tool for you to use ) when believed will lead you into temptation, to hell. The mind works with stories about what is not happening and can be very scary for the body, it experiences what the mind tells it, even though it is not happening!!!
This moment, this always now moment is despised, denied by the mind because the mind can not exist here. Like the devil and god fighting for the top spot, yet they can not exist at the same time.

Originally posted by Dr Slim

Originally posted by Maddogkull
Who knows the god of the bible might be real, but not exactly how they portray him in the bible. Remember the bible was written by man. Men make A LOT of mistakes. A god would not send a good person to hell because he did not believe in a guy who existed 2000 years ago. That would defeat the perfectness of god. Honestly I believe in the god of karma. Hell is subjective. If you are a good person you would not go to hell, if you are a bad person you will go to hell. I also read that eternity was originally translated from "eon". Meaning that no one stay in hell "forever" but for a period of time, i they did bad things.

how do you exactly define good and bad?

there's stealing sweets as a child bad..
robbing a bank bad...
killing your family bad..
killing millions of innocent people bad..
and michael jackson bad..

but what defines the bad that goes to hell, and the bad that is OK?

and to another question about people who don't know about god/the bible, would this also be the same for somebody who is mentally ill? if somebody burns down a hospital because they are insane, are they any more "bad" than you and i?

Up and down are also relative, but not in there tendencies. Good mean up, bad means down. All clear?

"Robbing a bank is bad..." I am not sure, because they are bad, so...robbing the bad guys is bad? - Yes it is, okey.

BTW. Killing guilty people is also bad on the whole world, but in USA, it is good - Don't!

Because Gods are good and bad themselves...

If we are in their image then perhaps it's just a bad trait or it runs in the family

Unfortunately life is a duality from the very smallest to the very biggest.

reply to post by Seventytwo


if we are made in the image of god, is god a "bad" man.. sometimes? you know, like on weekends.

reply to post by 547000

And yet you complain religious people are irrational. Take your pick, are they irrational or are you? Can't have it both ways.

Uh. What?

If there's really no rational reason to be moral in a given situation, is it really irrational to not be moral?

Who said there is no rational reason to be moral? You don't need God or a reward system in place in order to be moral. The point I was making is that those who do need a God and a reward system for moral behavior are simply not as moral as they like to think they are, especially when they make statements such as the one I had replied to.

One could argue people are simply selfish

I'm pretty sure I pointed out the selfishness aspect of religious "morality". When they make statements such as the one I had replied to in which they question the necessity to conduct moral behavior in the absence of reward for that moral behavior, then they are simply being moral only for the prospect of receiving a reward for doing so by their deity of choice/indoctrination/personal invention.

only being moral to survive longer and spread their genes

In all honesty, the propagation of genes does not require morality.

They are not moral for the sake of being moral.

Didn't I mention that as well? What exactly is your reply to me supposed to entail? Is there a point or is this mindless bitching without any intelligent substance?

How dare they! Selfish bastards!

So, in your opinion it's perfectly acceptable on a psychological level to ONLY be moral IF you receive reward for doing so and without prospect of any reward we can simply drop all morality?

[edit on 2-8-2010 by sirnex]