It wont rain oil....however...

Those thinking that the areas around the gulf will be affected by oil rain, need to relax and take a deep breath. Im not saying the oil spill isnt a bad thing, because it is quite a significant disaster, particulary for marine ecosystems, and coastal communities.

Now, oil cant actually evaporate as a whole. It is composed of many components, including benzene, hydrocarbons, nitrogen, sulfur and various heavy metals. The temperature at which oil will begin to break down and seperate these components is approximately 650F (400C), which is a temperature the earth is not capable of producing naturally. However, lighter components within the oil such as some hydrocarbon based gases will be lost in the few days through evaporation, while the heavier, more toxic parts of the oil (such as the polyaromatic compounds, which are the more carcinogenic compounds) will be left in the water.

Fortunantly, hydrocarbons will not bond with water molecules, meaning there will not be any trace of these within the water droplets and ice crystals forund in rain bearing clouds (including benzene). However, due to the light weight of these materials, they are able to be transported with winds. (Where and in how much of a concentration these affect, is highly dependant on wind directions and speed). This is probably why, many residents of beaches within close proximity to the spill, may expererience slight nasuea or headaches, along with a faint smell. Astnmatics shoudl take particlar care, as these chemicals have the potential to irritate the throat and lungs in high enough levels. Hopefully though, before it these materials reach inland, the chemicals will have been dispersed enough to safer levels.

So, recapping what I said:

1. It will not rain oil, as the components either too heavy in molecular weight, or will not bond with water molecules

2. Air pollution from the lighter chemicals may cause issues, but will be highly dependant on winds

Relax a little bit people, it will not rain oil, its physically impossible for this to occur, but as I mentioned, also be wary of winds and people with respiratory illness should pay particular attention to the forecast of wind directions.

reply to post by OzWeatherman


Thanks for the shot of rationality and sanity. I am honestly surprised you haven't been flamed all to hell yet. Anytime I say it's not going to happen, I am called a sheeple or closed minded idiot.
Anyway, S&F

Have you seen this video?



What are you're thoughts?

I am being sincere.

Edited to add: My thoughts would be the rain cycle would be messed up due to an outside chemical being introduced into the ecosystem.

[edit on 3-7-2010 by Quickfix]

reply to post by Quickfix


I have seen that video, have you noticed where exactly that the video was shot?

Its right on a road. When you get rain, all the oil on the road form cars and other modes of transports floats to the surface of running water, and pools down the side of roads, which gives the appearance of flowing oil. I actually noticed this last week here in Australia. If the guy had actually captured some rain in a glass or something it would have been more convincing, but this video shows nothing but the ground, which indicates oil rain.

BTW, gunk in drains is also not an indication. All types of rubbish are floating into the drains, you cant simply blame it on oil

reply to post by OzWeatherman


Okay, sounds reasonable.

Have you seen this video?



Any thoughts?


Edited to add: This may be related.

And so do these. It sounds like acid rain is/can come from the gulf.

Below is a total explanation if your are willing to take like 5 minutes to browse it.

www.epa.gov...

[edit on 3-7-2010 by Quickfix]

[edit on 3-7-2010 by Quickfix]

[edit on 3-7-2010 by Quickfix]

reply to post by Quickfix

I can take this one....

What you are seeing is acid damage from acid rain. The acid rain is not from oil (or even any of its constituents) in the rainwater, but rather from an acidic chemical, probably sulfur. There are reports of extremely high levels of H2S in the area and that would lead me to believe that there is also an excess of SO2. Both chemicals are commonly associated with oil pockets. In the atmosphere, SO2 becomes H2SO4 (sulfuric acid) and can indeed mix with rainwater. Sulfuric acid is completely soluble in water, unlike hydrocarbons.

I am not 100% sure, but I believe hydrogen sulfide (H2S) can also convert into H2SO4...

TheRedneck

reply to post by Quickfix


Home made youtube videos are NOT proof of anything.

Go to any city, you will see oil on the streets after it rains. It is from all the cars, buses, etc.

It is usually much more prevalent in parking lots though.

It will be interesting to see the effects over the coming months in this area, especially if a Hurricane passes through.

I;m not 100% convinced that the rain will not be affected some way by the spill though.

Hence why I started this thread - www.abovetopsecret.com... asking the Gulf area members to sample the rain themselves and get it tested, rather than just rely on Youtube madness.

At least that way we will all know for sure if the water is clean or not.

G.

reply to post by Quickfix


I think Redneck answered that perfectly.


So nothing to add.

Why have my flowers stopped blooming?
They were just coming into full bloom and were beautiful a few weeks ago. These flowers usually bloom continuously from late spring, all through summer and right into early winter.

Now, every bloom is gone. I am near the gulf and we have rain almost every day.

There have been many reports of odd objects falling from the sky that should not.
Charles Fort spent his life tracking down such events.
Such as this one of fish falling from the sky.

www.news.com.au...

Sure not by evaporation, but it is technically possible for something to suck up stuff in to the atmosphere and dump it to the ground elsewhere.
I think tornados are typically claimed to be the cause.

Anyway, it is not impossible for it to "rain" oil; I think you are assuming that things that rain from the sky only get up there via evaporation.

Just an observation of possibility. Highly improbable perhaps but indeed possible.

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
Now, oil cant actually evaporate as a whole. It is composed of many components, including benzene, hydrocarbons, nitrogen, sulfur and various heavy metals. The temperature at which oil will begin to break down and seperate these components is approximately 650F (400C), which is a temperature the earth is not capable of producing naturally. However, lighter components within the oil such as some hydrocarbon based gases will be lost in the few days through evaporation, while the heavier, more toxic parts of the oil (such as the polyaromatic compounds, which are the more carcinogenic compounds) will be left in the water.

Fortunantly, hydrocarbons will not bond with water molecules, meaning there will not be any trace of these within the water droplets and ice crystals forund in rain bearing clouds (including benzene). However, due to the light weight of these materials, they are able to be transported with winds. (Where and in how much of a concentration these affect, is highly dependant on wind directions and speed). This is probably why, many residents of beaches within close proximity to the spill, may expererience slight nasuea or headaches, along with a faint smell. Astnmatics shoudl take particlar care, as these chemicals have the potential to irritate the throat and lungs in high enough levels. Hopefully though, before it these materials reach inland, the chemicals will have been dispersed enough to safer levels.

So, recapping what I said:

1. It will not rain oil, as the components either too heavy in molecular weight, or will not bond with water molecules

2. Air pollution from the lighter chemicals may cause issues, but will be highly dependant on winds

Relax a little bit people, it will not rain oil, its physically impossible for this to occur, but as I mentioned, also be wary of winds and people with respiratory illness should pay particular attention to the forecast of wind directions.

So according to your analysis here, I should be able to get a jug with some sea water in it, add some raw petroleum and proportionate amounts of Benzene, Hydrogen Sulfide, some Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons, dissolved Methane, and other petro-chemicals with some dispersant added for good measure, and you're trying to say that none of the compounds will escape with the water vapor unless I heat it to 650 degrees? Then you're conversely saying that some of these lighter compounds will escape because of evaporation?

Nobody's claiming that these lighter hydrocarbons "bond with water molecules". I'm guessing that you understand the process by which clouds pick up particulate and various chemicals, so I'm wondering why you've chosen this notion of molecular bonding as the crux of your thread when you probably know that cloud moisture maintains the properties of cohesion and adhesion. They act like a vaccuum cleaner, picking up crap and depositing it. Also there are petroleum related chemcials which are perfectly capable of bonding to water molecules, I trust you are familiar with the chemisty that causes acid rain, and I trust you understand what burning petroleum en masse produces in relation to that simple chemistry. You are right, it won't rain oil, but it isn't the oil we're worried about.

Oh yeah, and the earth is perfectly capable of producing temperatures in the thousands of degrees, and in 'high enough levels' some of the chemicals in question won't just 'irritate your throat and lungs', they will kill you. Telling people to relax is admirable, mitigating the dangers of the largest oil spill in human history is not when you know that there are chemicals involved here that are perfectly capable of being captured by clouds and redeposited, particularly with them burning large quantities of oil offshore. The entire south eastern US receives it's moisture and precipitation from this area.
There's no need to panic, but come on, you really think 60 mile long plumes of dissolved methane and 1/3 of the Gulf's surface being covered with petroleum isn't going to make it past the beaches? Not to mention we may only be seeing about 2% of this crap.

reply to post by TheRedneck


www.ausetute.com.au...
A simple site which outlines the basic chemistry involved in the formation of Acid Rain...

reply to post by OzWeatherman


Yes, a call for moderation is in order. However, components of the oil slick will clearly evaporate.

“Two basic approaches to the mechanism of evaporation are proposed in the literature, first-order decay and boundary-layer limited. Several workers propose a first-order decay process which yields a logarithmic decrease in evaporation with time. Most workers use boundary-layer equations adapted from water evaporation work. These equations predict a constant evaporation mass transfer rate dependent on scale size and wind speed” (www.sciencedirect.com)


Weather phenomena with the presence of crude and the products of combustion have been observed, furthermore:

“Previous investigations of the weathering of crude oilslicks on the sea have demonstrated that all of the lower boiling components evaporate or dissolve within a few hours of slick initiation (2-5). Although little is known of the relative percentages of loss of these slick components due to evaporation and dissolution, it is assumed that they are mainly lost by evaporation, at least under conditions of low sea-surface roughness. Detailed studies of the fate of slick components during the early stages of slick aging are crucial because the lower boiling fractions contain almost all of the lethal components of the slick (6)” (pubs.acs.org...)

Which essentially means that the most harmful components of the spill are evaporating as we speak.

Recall the massive oil field fires during Gulf War I.

“The oil field fires caused immense amounts of smoke and an oil rain or mist. The fires generated plumes of smoke that dropped to ground level during air inversions and still winds. Troop reports of battlefield operations in conditions of heavy smoke and petroleum rain verify the severity of the actual exposures to the oil field fires” (www.penfield-gill.com...)

The nature of the gulf spill is obviously different than millions of gallons of combusting crude, but pay careful attention to this CDC paper:

“A study was also done on the 11 ACR (Armorer Calvary Regiment) that deployed to the Persian Gulf on June 10, 1991 and returned to its Germany base on September 20, 1991. The 11 ACR was stationed 30 to 80 miles from the oil field fires during a time of high winds (Shamel winds) that dispersed the smoke plume from the fires and at a time 40% of the oil fires had been extinguished. The exposure of the 11 ACR to the oil fires would not be comparable to the combat troops in ODS. With a much more limited exposure to the oil fires, the 11 ACR reported major symptoms while in Kuwait of fatigue, burning eyes, eye irritation, trouble breathing, nose and throat irritation, and skin rashes. These symptoms have also been reported by ill Gulf War veterans” (www.penfield-gill.com...).

“Both smoke and petroleum as found in the Kuwait oil fires are known to be highly carcinogenic and toxic” (www.penfield-gill.com...).

The paper proposes a correlation between the oil fires/rain/mist and gulf war syndrome. [Ed: The presence of depleted uranium is also suspected in the etiology of GWS. The hazards of DU come from its chemical toxicity rather than radioactivity. When introduced into the water/food supply I’d suspect effects would be noticeable, yet the average GI did not regularly interact with DU (to my knowledge). Rifles are typically not loaded with DU rounds. The cannons on A-10s, tank/artillery shells, armor contained DU, yet is seems exposure to oil rain/mist is the common denominator. Corrections to this welcome.]


If I lived in the gulf region and had the financial wherewithal to pack up and leave, I'd be out asap. I'm not saying, I'm just saying...



Mod edit: link corrected.

[edit on 4/7/2010 by ArMaP]

Originally posted by tetrahedron
Weather phenomena with the presence of crude and the products of combustion have been observed, furthermore:

“Previous investigations of the weathering of crude oilslicks on the sea have demonstrated that all of the lower boiling components evaporate or dissolve within a few hours of slick initiation (2-5). Although little is known of the relative percentages of loss of these slick components due to evaporation and dissolution, it is assumed that they are mainly lost by evaporation, at least under conditions of low sea-surface roughness. Detailed studies of the fate of slick components during the early stages of slick aging are crucial because the lower boiling fractions contain almost all of the lethal components of the slick (6)”

I hope everybody reads that bearing in mind we're talking about an incessant and ongoing two month long event on the magnitude of 100,000 barrels a day which is already covering 1/3 of the surface of the entire Gulf Of Mexico and that we may only be seeing as little as 2% of the actual spill as well as what some scientists are calling the most vigorous methane release in the history of modern man. While I agree that alot of this speculation is indeed fear based, let's not mitigate the reality of toxicity. Any tom fool knows petroleum is nasty stuff, especially in this kind of volume in this kind of proximity to highly populated areas.

Tetrahedron, I did a good bit on Depleted Uranium a while back here.

Originally posted by Alethea
Why have my flowers stopped blooming?

I am near the gulf and we have rain almost every day.

I think you've answered your own question there

The only thing I can add to what Oz has quite accurately said here is that there is always the risk of a tidal surge in association with a hurricane spreading oily water inland, and the much smaller risk of a tornado sucking up some oily water and then depositing it in a very small area inland.

Incidently, were oily water possible to rain down having initially evapourated from the Gulf, it would affect much of N America and even Europe depending in the track of any hurricane. England would be as much at risk as Louisiana. If I see any oily rain in my garden later this summer I'll be sure to let everyone know!


Edit to add: for those still concerned about oily rain from this spill, how much oily rain came from the Ixtoc I spill? I know trhis spill has now exceeded that one in turns of volume, but both occurred in the Gulf in summer in hurricane season. Was America covered in oily rain in 1979? That should answer any remaining concerns

[edit on 4-7-2010 by Essan]

Another OP working for BP sigh, they are taking over the world.

Originally posted by trolleleet
Another OP working for BP sigh, they are taking over the world.

What a stupid and ignorant statement.

No wonder people don't bother to share factual threads anymore, with this kind of attitude.

Oil components definitely end up in atmospheric precipitation, even the heavier hydrocarbons. Here is a quote from this article,

www.iwojel.webpark.pl...:

"The following compound groups were identified in the precipitation samples: n-alkanes in the range of n-C13-n-C26, acyclic isoprenoids (mainly pristane and phytane), polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons with 3-6 condensed aromatic rings and in some cases also their aliphatic derivatives, oxygenation products of polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, carboxylic acids and their methyl esters, phenol derivatives, sterols and several functionalised compounds of anthropogenic or vegetation origin such as dihydromethyljasmonate, diethyltoulamide and 8,12-epoxylabd-14-ene. n-Alkanes present in the samples show a distribution type similar to that found in both coal extracts or in crude oils (Fig. 1). It indicates the importance of these sources participating in air contamination. "

There are many papers that I have to read to become familiar with this subject well enough to be certain about anything, but from what I know already, the relationship between polar and non-polar molecules(water and oil in this case) is a bit more complex than first meets the eye. Water will dissolve small amounts of nearly any non-polar compound and I get the feeling that when you are dealing with the quantities of water entering the atmosphere the effects of this relationship may be surprisingly significant.






[edit on 4-7-2010 by mrwiffler]

Just another note on this subject; a small amount of knowledge about chemistry often leads one to erroneous conclusions. For example, with a chemical with a high boiling point such as sodium hydroxide(NAOH) which boils at 1388 °C, it might seem as though it wouldn't enter the atmosphere with water...but it does quite readily in aerosols. Dangerous amounts of NAOH can become airborne given the right conditions.