Definite Proof: (The) God (of the Bibles) DOESN’T EXIST! Part1

First we need to agree that a TRUE GOD can ONLY be All-Loving, All-Knowing and All-Powerful (ALAKAP). That is a necessary statement as the ones who have faith in God give Him these attributes.
Read up a definition of God and that's what you'll find. It's not MY statement... But it seems logical that a "true" God would be ALAKAP.
What would be a God who lacks of only one of these attributes??! All of them?
Certainly NOT GOD.
Thus, I can prove that the character presented in the Bibles is NOT, I repeat, IS NOT, ALAKAP!!! In fact, he’s none of these things!!! And I have MANY (logical/rational) proofs/evidence. The concept of God we (Jewish, Christians and Muslim) know about is a logical fallacy. The (Good, All-loving) GOD we believe in doesn’t exist!
I will present in this (lengthy) discussion (split in 2 threads for more comfortable reading) 4 points/questions to illustrate my claim.

I will use simple words and reasoning to express «my» ideas. Not only for everyone to understand but to show that it’s not necessary to use complex/obscure words to explain even the most difficult topics. And to don’t let or make people think that they understand something, in fact, meaningless…
The following is NOT an attack on anyone. It’s a genuine attempt to transmit/share some «knowledge» to explain «our» (mis)conception of «God». Later on, I will have more material/questions like: Does having faith in the Bible mean having faith in the men who wrote it? Can we be Righteous, thus worthy of Heaven? A text on ‘The Holy Spirit, Christ, sin, miracles…

I have nothing to sell, no book nor DVD.
I guess, if you had to, you could call me a skeptic-agnostic.
I am not a follower nor a «hater» of the God of the Bible(s) nor ANY other conception of God (religions).
I’m not an atheist either. That’s a belief system too. Yes it is, because contrary to their claim, it’s not only that they don’t believe in God, but they believe God does not exist. There is no doubt in their mind or, if there is, they are unknowingly agnostic.
I especially don’t believe that we (human-beings) are Gods nor perfect. Far from it. I believe we are desperately scared, thus delusional, selfish, pervert little creatures. But it can be changed! We can evolve! But for that, we have to painfully loose our illusions first.

Don’t ask me questions on specific quotes of the Bibles. This thread is meant to be a metaphysical one. I don’t want to discuss any particular religion. I am no theologian. And please, keep the discussion on the arguments I present. Thank you.
So, let’s begin…

A- Is God omniscient (All-knowing)? Is it compatible with free-will?

I - God doubts!
We’ll see Job’s test (part C), in the light of God’s fairness or perfection but now I will show that these «tests» reveal something much more troublesome about God: His apparent DOUBT/lack of knowledge! We’ll use the First Test, the one which decided our fate as mortal human-beings: Adam & Eve‘s.

Why test Adam and Eve (A&E), beings that HE, HIMSELEF, created? Does He NOT KNOW their perfection? How come, even being perfect GOD still (can) have doubts(?) about them and need to administrate a test?! 
God is supposed to be OMNISCIENT (All-knowing), for him to doubt... Wouldn’t that mean that HE ISN’T omniscient in fact? Knowing EVERYTHING means EVERYTHING, no less.

Also, does He not KNOW their future reactions?
He's supposed to know anything anyone will do before they're even born/created! Past, present, future (because time is meaningless for him and because he is the one deciding of the course of the future) action/thoughts, HE KNOWS it ALL, right?
That means there is NO result of any "test", NO choice to make that He doesn’t know about before one is even confronted with it!

He even send (or let) Satan/the Serpent to tempt them. He, at the very least, knows the Serpent try to do so. Don’t tell me He doesn’t (know) because if you do, that’s proof He isn’t All-knowing.
So, one has to wonder: Does God WANT to cast A&E out of Eden? Because or He’s VERY doubtful of their obedience (BTW is obedience a necessary component of perfection???) or He’s trying hard to make them disobey (By sending or letting Satan convince us)!
This logical evidence should suffice to understand that something's wrong, shouldn’t it?

Really, how is it possible that GOD (All-knowing) doesn’t know how HIS OWN creations would react in any situation? What's even the purpose of testing the righteous/perfect ones? Does He need to be sure? Again, GOD not being sure, doubting, NOT KNOWING makes perfect sense to you???
Or, is it that, TRULY, He is NOT ALL-knowing?

II - Free-will
Some would, at this point, pull out their wild-card, the magic word, for any such impossible, illogical account of potential «events»: free-will. I mean that once the concept of free-will is introduced in our mind/reasoning, we (more accurately Faithers) forget that HE ‘put it there’.
This word is supposed to explain by its own nearly all the inconsistencies and stop all further embarrassing questions. It's just that… It doesn’t.

What means free-will when, again, our creator knows EVERYTHING we have done (thought of), are doing (thinking) and will ever do (think) as an All-knowing God is supposed to?
It simply means that we (as Adam or Job) have the ILLUSION of a choice, but everything is known beforehand by GOD.
I know... It would mean that we have a pervert liar as GOD, because HE knew that HE'd cast out A&E out of Eden even before to create them, and make them (thus mankind) think that He didn’t (know).

Or is it that He doesn’t know everything?!.. No alternative.

[edit on 2-7-2010 by Project_USA]

[edit on 2-7-2010 by Project_USA]

(Thread continuation)

More?
From our (A&E or Job) point of view we believe we have a choice but GOD knows better. Hence the concept of a Destiny written in stone for everyone of us.

To try to get around the problem, I heard some Christians say: «God knows the laws of nature perfectly so he created us in a way that suits us perfectly.» Did He now?
You see that’s exactly the kind of intellectual compromise and mistakes that prevents us to see the inconsistencies in religions and the proof that it’s manmade.
(The) God (of the Bibles) doesn’t only KNOW the «laws of nature» and what is needed for us to be peaceful, worthy and have a meaningful life.
He doesn’t only reveal them to us to «help» us and let us make true choices by giving us free-will.
As you think, yes, it seems beautiful to want to be truly followed by true choice and free-will.

The problem is: IF HE KNOWS THE RULES, WHAT WE SHOULD DO TO HAVE A MEANINGFUL AND PEACEFUL LIFE, IT‘S BECAUSE HE CREATED THEM, ALL OF THEM. Like he did for our «free-will».
He didn’t merely explain us any rules… HE CREATED THEM! That changes everything!
If he truly wanted to help us he would have created laws that were, at least, «applicable» by humans! Even with a lot of determination and strength through out our whole life…
But, As I will explain in a later thread, it’s simply IMPOSSIBLE to any human-being to be righteous, to follow ALL the rules and NEVER SIN, to be PERFECT. (That’s why priests are of the worst kind… As they try to make us believe that they are…)
So, this kind of argument doesn’t hold a minute. WE BELIEVE we have free-will but it’s a lie because HE KNOWS and CREATE everything: EVEN THE LAWS OF OUR UNIVERSE, THE LAWS PRESIDING OVER OUR MIND. Because if He didn’t created them, WHO or WHAT DID? Would the concept of a God still be valid or even useful?

Truly, it’s a mistake because the writers couldn’t see free-will would be INCOMPATIBLE with an ALL-knowing God BECAUSE CREATOR OF ALL THINGS! They were limited, humans. and by deduction, it’s a proof that God didn’t write the Bible!
Still think the Bibles show clear genius?

Even so, only knowing the rules, why did he still create us knowing that we couldn’t (or even WOULDN’T) abide by all of them? Does that seem All-loving to you?
And IT STILL DOESN’T CHANGE THE FACT HE KNEW, EVEN BEFORE CREATING THEM THAT HE WOULD SACRIFICE AND COMDEMN TO HELL A&E, THUS US!!!
All-loving, indeed…
Thus, let‘s examine exhibit B:

B- Is God All-loving, pure Good?

How can an All-loving God create evil creatures??? Even if they are not evil from the start.
How can perfect/All-loving beings can become evil??? (Satan, Nephilim, men). And don’t tell me by choice/free-will!
If a being is 100% perfect/loving, pure… He shouldn’t be able to experience nor choose evil because it’s not in him (his being)!
So it means that some of His creations were partly evil. Was it a choice or was it because Evil is part of God??? Because and anyway, for Evil to exist, it MUST BE God’s creation! He created EVERYTHING! Or, isn’t He the God we think he is? Because, for sure Evil (suffering, injustice, violence, atrocities, fear…) exists…
These questions should, again, suffice to show the misconception and anthropomorphism of the concept of God. And I find that to be a clear paradox demonstrating blatant incoherence between a PERCIEVED All-loving God and a behavior qualified by HIMSELF of «Evil».

We can point out some passages where it is said (by God) that he brought Evil on men.
How could a pure All-loving being, as Supreme as HE may be, kill anyone, bring EVIL on men? (Jeremiah 6:19, Deuteronomy 30:15 & 30:19 -« death, cursing »- and more…) There are only examples, there are more of these passages in the Bible.
Isn‘t it the worst paradox ever?!?
If Satan is also responsible for atrocities committed on mankind, why did God create him?? How can God even let him act? Is there even a need for Satan if God himself can be Evil??

Well, if He created him (Satan) on purpose, that’s his mission, right? And if He didn’t create him on purpose, He’s not God. Simple, really.
Does HE approve of Satan’s actions because (all?) the targeted ones deserve it? Does HE let Satan do HIS dirty work? How can a newborn baby or a child can deserve to go to Hell???
How come that, for the same actions, Satan is considered evil and God loving?
Also, how can anyone believe in Satan (an evil God rival) when it‘s CLEARLY stated in the Bible that he’s his right hand (Lucifer. See Job and the test)?
Well, I guess it’s not that clear. Is it because the concept of an Evil One appears in The New Testament?
And IT CHANGES A LOT OF THINGS. Like Hell, maybe? Like saying « GOD is all Good and it’s Satan who’s all Evil.»?
But, did the right hand of GOD become evil long after the creation of Man and its demise in the eye of GOD??? Yes, because we have to assume that as Moses (first God’s «contactee») was not told of the existence of Satan, he didn’t exist in his times! Or did God (or Moses) lie by omission?

Is God even concerned by our salvation? Does HE simply stay back, watch and wait for a drastic reduction of the population to finish us HIMSELF with his vengeful wrath (Final Judgment)?
Is that His way of «saving» the righteous ones? Who are the righteous ones , by the way?
Will Chinese, Indians... anyone who never had the "chance" to learn about even the existence of Christ nor, even, the concept of an All-loving-yet-vengeful GOD (loving, vengeful... Oxymoron anyone?) will be denied Heaven? Is that fair and loving?

How many will be worthy of HIM? 2billions? 1? 500 millions? Hmm, I know this number from somewhere, don’t you?
Do you see the incoherencies of all this? Because now there is an All-hating entity (Satan) and a God who can also be hating/vengeful/angry… So not All-loving I guess.

Continuing, how could He condemn ANY of HIS creations, of HIS children, HIS beloved ones to ETERNAL DAMNATION???
To kill, is harsh already... He does that because HE’s judging us: we are not «worthy» of HIM, therefore it’s Hell for us! And Hell is ETERNAL damnation… I think many of us don’t know what it takes to be truly righteous (Yet, they BELIEVE they are)… Nor grasp the meaning of eternal, really.
All-loving indeed... Sorry, vengeful indeed... Confused already? Wait it‘s only warm up time.

For some passages in the Bible (Isaiah for example) I certainly agree that it shows real evil men doing evil deeds (like throwing their own children in the fire) and worshipping evil gods. I would easily clean the face of the earth of them because, IMO, they aren’t human-beings anymore.
Still, I’m not as loving as (an All-loving/merciful/perfect) God (should be), and His message of ABSOLUTE non-violence.
Also, He intervenes when HE is concerned, but not to help us… Clearly caring indeed…
There should be no possible EVIL act from a PURELY GOOD God. NO exception.

What about violence?
Jesus, himself, forced the merchants out of the temple yelling at and kicking them. If this doesn’t imply anger and violence, I don’t know what does… And this to protect a «pile of stones» from sacrilege…

Did God truly wrote the Bible through carefully chosen men?
But in this case, how can we explain the obvious contradictions like this one. Jesus is known for its peaceful teachings. He even asks us to «give the other cheekbone», but him and his father, God, allow themselves to be violent, homicidal or even Evil??? Are God and Jesus liars, hypocrites?
How many clear paradoxes, incoherencies does one need to understand the nonsense of it all?!

It can also be that Jesus never asked of us to «give the other cheekbone», maybe violence is accepted only when justified in the defense of others‘ lives, ourselves and certain principles (like «you don’t do commerce in the house of God» maybe?). I would think that would be fair and just…

The definition of god as all knowing and all powerful precludes him from being bound by mortal logical paradoxes.




What does it matter anyway? How do you feel after this little rant I wonder?

[edit on 7/2/2010 by eNumbra]

i didn't even read anything but the title,,,,dude....or dudlious...haha... DEFINiTE proof...well we've been waiting for that yeszzzz

[edit on 2-7-2010 by GBP/JPY]

Well religion and the god you are referring to only exist in thoughts. More specifically religion exists within one's pride.

(Thread continuation)

But that would also mean that the words of Jesus have been distorted/corrupted or simply created/put in his mouth to serve some people’s agenda?…
For example, would that be beneficial for the masters of this era, the Romans? Guess what? Yes! What better way, for Romans (and for any wannabe masters), to enslave/slaughter a whole bunch of people? Make them believe that their God forbid violence/rebellion in any way, for any reasons!

Even «better» (sarcasm) and utterly outrageous: if someone rob you, give him more; if someone punish you (even unfairly): ask for (or do) more…
I can understand that we’re not supposed to own anything and, even, that ownership is just an illusion. I can also understand that the best way to be (seen as) strong is being able to (show that you can) endure more than others and more that our masters can even think about… For the remote chance they leave us alone because they cannot break us… Still, they can simply kill us.
But we don’t care, we’ll go to Heaven, right? Everything is based on our belief that there is an Heaven, that we have a soul… We’ll come back on that in a later thread.

We need to be serious a minute... How come what is BEST for wannabe masters/thieves/selfish-careless/evil men is also the best way for us to behave to go to Heaven? Convenient, strange you say? No... «For what we suffer on earth, more will be enjoyed in Heaven» (for the remote chance there's anyone there because as we will see it‘s impossible to be perfect/righteous) and for them the opposite... Right...
Can wolves ask for more than sheep WILLING to get slaughtered? That's the beasts wonderland...

But hey, for the ones who cannot endure the pain, misunderstanding, void… of our seemingly pointless lives, remember... We cannot commit suicide, doing so is taking the highway straight to Hell for us... Come on now, what's a dead slave good for?
We don’t even have a right over our own lives. If THEY get the chance, THEY will decide when and how our sacrifice must occur. Nothing is to be wasted, it would be a shame, wouldn't it?

Don’t forget that the «non-action/non-violence» paradigm, is only understood/valid in the light of the belief in the existence of the «soul» . Again, a convenient belief that serves, at least HERE (in the life we KNOW without doubt exists) only our «masters» and would render us slaves of ANY cruel, «evil» person who would decide it.

More? Go on reading the next thread: Definite Proof: God DOESN’T EXIST! Part2

reply to post by Project_USA


Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)

7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Go figure...

this thread is sad. have someone hug you.

Want to know something funny? Your beliefs make it so you have to bash others beliefs. All in all, people have different beliefs.

Try not having beliefs

Its difficult at first, and will seem very paradoxical, but keep at it.

Maybe you should rename your title to The Christian God in stead of God.

Originally posted by Project_USA
Don’t ask me questions on specific quotes of the Bibles. This thread is meant to be a metaphysical one. I don’t want to discuss any particular religion. I am no theologian. And please, keep the discussion on the arguments I present. Thank you.

Sooooooo...Your entire argument, offered as "definiite proof" is based on direct arguments of the Judeo-Christian religion and their text. Yet you don't want to be questioned on that text? And, you claim you don't want to "discuss any particular religion", while only presenting arguments to one?

Kinda causes one to lose interest in attempting to engage in constructive discourse.

Originally posted by eNumbra
The definition of god as all knowing and all powerful precludes him from being bound by mortal logical paradoxes.




What does it matter anyway? How do you feel after this little rant I wonder?

[edit on 7/2/2010 by eNumbra]

1 - Would you care to develop your statement?
"Little rant"? If that's what it's called nowadays... No doubt you didnt even read it.

And it matters because this belief guide/influence directly the life of billions of faithers and directly the ones around them.
And this as much no than throughout history.

It also matters to analyse what is the core of faith in the Bibles or arent you even insterested in a logical approach on your own beliefs?
I'm not even surprised...

reply to post by WTFover


I dont discuss one religion, I analyze one concept of God which is slightly the same for Jews, Christians and Muslims.

Of course I use the concept of the Bibles... I meant that that I dont want to discuss endlessly over passages of the Bible where God would endeed be described as All-loving, All powerful... That's no proof.

You thought you found a flaw in the way I present my wish of the direction of the discussion on this thread and you jumped on it...

Read it Columbo and lets talk about its content.

reply to post by Project_USA


It's faulty logic to attempt to prove a negative. Absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence . I am the furthest thing from a theist but in my opinion it's just as fanatical to say there isn't such a thing as God as it is to say there is a God.

all loveing - he created you
[absolute act of love]

all powerful - he can destroy you
[absolute act of power]

all knowing - he is in a greater state of awareness than you
[absolute state of being]

____'s God.

you can fill in the blank with whatever you want... "you".."mankind"..."Joe Schmoe"


thats how i define "ALAPAK". you took "ALAPAK" and just made your own definition for it as well, and that is why you came to the dead end that you did.

Originally posted by Mumbotron
reply to post by Project_USA

 

It's faulty logic to attempt to prove a negative. Absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence . I am the furthest thing from a theist but in my opinion it's just as fanatical to say there isn't such a thing as God as it is to say there is a God.

I dont try to prove that GOD doesnt exist.
I prove that the conception we have of the one of the Bibles is utterly non-sense, thus false, thus (the) God (as) descbribed in the Bibles CANNOT exist.

I changed the title of the thread for less confusion.
More, this statement: "Absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence" doesnt apply at all to this thread as I present numerous arguments. So dont try to use sentences that sound good when it's not justified.
And you could at least read it before to post on it, no?

Originally posted by LurkerMan
all loveing - he created you
[absolute act of love]

all powerful - he can destroy you
[absolute act of power]

all knowing - he is in a greater state of awareness than you
[absolute state of being]

____'s God.

you can fill in the blank with whatever you want... "you".."mankind"..."Joe Schmoe"


thats how i define "ALAPAK". you took "ALAPAK" and just made your own definition for it as well, and that is why you came to the dead end that you did.

That's powerful argumentation...
Please... At least develop some counter-arguments instead of stating_____... Well, you can fill the blanks.

reply to post by Project_USA


A little touchy are we? Well just so you know, I did read the thread before I posted. You changed the title of the thread which in essence has changed your thesis. I'll be the first one to say that most of the mainstream religions appear to be a way to pacify the masses. The scriptures, many of which carry contradictions throughout the texts, are often compilations and modifications of older texts/ religions. Stating that is a far cry from your original title in which you stated you could prove there is no God. Try taking a deep breath.

edit:hey

[edit on 07/17/2009 by Mumbotron]

Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
Maybe you should rename your title to The Christian God in stead of God.

I followed your advice.
It was becoming obvious that I needed to be more precise.