Sick of these morons

Volunteered to defend their country or go shoot fish in a desert.

Bomb fish in a bucket in the desert you mean.

Shooting the fish in the bucket would entail letting the fish get to arms length and risking one jumping out and ravashing a soldiers boot.

Hey, sometimes fish have sharp fins and you get a little nicked..

Sorry for taking a while getting back on this one- school and various time zones are to blame!

I agree with all John Bull has said, especially with the WWII stuff. I'm fed up of hearing "we saved your asses etc etc". The USA has always been isolationist, and it's taken massive events like the sinking of the Lusitania, Pearl Harbour and 9/11 to drag it into the real world. Britain has been bombed, shelled and blitzed for a good portion of the 20th Century, so I also think that kegs's argument is equally correct.

As for the USA funding terrorist outfits- sorry, 'freedom fighters'- the IRA are the prime example. And let's not forget that USA has violated UN resolutions as well. In the Korean War, for example, it was the USA's overstepping of the resolution that led to China throwing its hand into the war.

And if your way of responding to an person's argument, jms, is to say he's 'talking sh!t' then maybe you need to rethink your respect for other people

Deimos

The American soldiers over there are volunteers. We have a volunteer military force here in the good ole US of A. So they knew what they were getting into. Wasn't forced upon them. So just because we don't volunteer to be in the military doesn't mean we can't have an opinion on the situation. And it also doesn't mean we wouldn't be willing to defend our country. I'll be willing to go over there and do my part if need be. But, it isn't needed yet, probably won't be.

If only the same could be said for all of the Iraqi soldiers that will be killed once war breaks out.

Originally posted by jms88
I'm so sick of these protesters and other loud mouths I had to find a place to vent. So here I am.

I live in NJ and I used to work in NYC until the building I worked in got hit by a plane. I was lucky enough to get out unharmed, but like a lot of other people that day I stood and watched.

I watched many people jump/fall from the upper floors of the towers and explode on the ground not far from where I was standing. Some of the people were dead or unconcious on the way down, but there was a guy that was screaming all the way to the ground. If I think about it, I can picture the whole scene like it was yesterday. I'm sure I'll be stuck with those horrible memories until the day I die.

So now I get to turn on the TV and watch morons talk about how we are violating Muslim rights by profiling. How Bush is turning the USA into a police state. How the terrorist violence against us can be justified by the way we treat the rest of the world.

I just think of that one guy kicking and screaming all the way down. I think his rights were violated that day, for all I know he could have been a Muslim.

Dear ape, how would you feel if i told you it wasn't muslims at all who pulled off 911 but the very same people behind bush and "police state".

I've heard that claim made before, but never seen any specifics cited.... Personally, I really can't see the Bush camp, NWO, etc. intentionally wrecking the economy and undermining their citizens' confidence in the government's ability to protect them... Whatever goals might have been accomplished by this (WTC), could have easily been accomplished in other ways (i.e. bombs instead of planes) without having the secondary effects... However, I'd like to know about the other side of the arguement if you have any details...Thanks

i'd just like to ask americans who support this war--will they support all the other wars that the folk in the white house are planning--will you support going into all these nations--killing and rebuilding all these countries. when the smoke clears and all the fires are put out the truth will be a bitter pill to swallow for so many americans. specially when one conflict leads to another and then another and at the same time all your rights are being taken away and soon you won't be able to stop it. some of you really need to read up on what is going on here. if your are going to support something maybe you should know a little bit about what it is your are supporting. you are supporting the doctrine of nation destruction and rebuilding. democratization, in other words. the French and the Russians and the Chinese know something that you don't. that this isn't just about a mad man and his bombs.

all of us know that washington is built on lies. why do you expect them to give you the whole truth now? they are spoon feeding you. stop being a willing participant. and for god's sake stop justifying the shreading of the constitution...it may make you feel warm and fuzzy inside to hand over your rights to these idiots but in the long run we'll all be paying for your fear.

I'll answer your question, Saphronia. We Americans won't automatically support or denounce all these "other wars". They'll be independently analyzed.

Listening to world opinion is great fun - usually the Americans are taking over everything, and butting in all over. But almost as pervasive are comments like in this thread, that the US is isolationist and it takes an event like the Lusitania or Pearl Harbor to drag us into foreign affairs. So . . . which is it?

We're quite tolerant internationally. We've never colonized other peoples like England and France have. We gave many American lives in Somalia assisting the local people, with no gain to the US (a primarily Muslim country I believe). We also defended the Muslims against the Serbs in Europe's own backyard, after so little European action. Also with no gain to the US. In 1973 the Arabs increased the price and reduced the supply of oil to the US causing us great economic upheaval, and what did we do? We just paid the new price.

Kuwait was the most aggressive in raising oil prices in 1973, but when Iraq invaded in 1991, we led their liberation. Sure, it was about oil - but we left the country afterwards, we didn't stay there and pillage their resources.

I really enjoyed the part about the French, Russians and Chinese knowing something we don't! The French know how to be an ignored and irrelevant superpower-of-the-past. The Russians declared a draw after 10 years in Afghanistan and withdrew, while we were in the mop-up stages after 3 months (and the military is Russian's strength). China certainly requires careful scrutiny, but for the present thru mid-term future their economy is just too far behind ours. Communist regimes can never match democracy and capitalism.

Yes, we tend to be isolationist; we'll do business everywhere, but otherwise leave everyone alone. Until we're provoked. We invented a whole new kind of weapon to use on Japan after Pearl Harbor (atomic bomb). We made first use of a new technology in Gulf War I (stealth aircraft). We created a new weapon specifically for Afghanistan (thermobaric bombs). And we've devised new weapons to test this time around (EMP bombs & missles).

Any other questions?

Originally posted by Gazrok
I've heard that claim made before, but never seen any specifics cited.... Personally, I really can't see the Bush camp, NWO, etc. intentionally wrecking the economy and undermining their citizens' confidence in the government's ability to protect them... Whatever goals might have been accomplished by this (WTC), could have easily been accomplished in other ways (i.e. bombs instead of planes) without having the secondary effects... However, I'd like to know about the other side of the arguement if you have any details...Thanks

I don't have time nor motivation to spell out many years of research in one post.

you are addressing me as though i'm not american...ummm, i'm an american. the fact that we were "pulled" into other wars has nothing to do with what is being planned by our current government starting with iraq. it's easy to say "we'll cross that bridge when we come to it". when we should be saying let's stop this before it goes any further. with all respect sir, our rights are being slowly eroded and the plotters and planners of american dominance don't want america's opinion. they openly claim that it doesn't matter. excuse if i don't stand up and cheer for folk like that. for folk that draft policy that leads to the end of civil liberties and personal freedom.

sadly you missed the whole point of my post--who cares what France and Russia thinks--my point is that this is just the beginning (that's what they know and you seem unable to accept) and supporting this will soon lead us down a road of war after war after war-in a country where dissent has become anti-american. where you are either with us or against us and if you are against us you are no longer american. that's dangerous--that's anti-american.

It's safe to say here that no one in this thread has a CLUE of foreign policy or politics in general. Try chit-chatting with a political science major//masters for once, they'll of course give you varied reasons for their views.

None think half the crap all of you do, and none think Israel is a "Great Satan" that the UN must squash like a Bug.

A good friend of mine doesn't think we should go to war, and I do, but we both agree on the MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER.

Whatever the decsion is, support it.

The last thing we need is to be liberating Iraq and putting up with all these damnable hippies spitting on returning soldiers.

And in case you haven't noticed, we better get rid of Iraq before N. Korea decides to invade S. Korea. Which isn't much longer. Give them by the end of the year to the next year.

Saphroina you seem VERY young. America hasn't set out to make war, nor have they planned any "wars" war has come to us. And if we aren't fast (the UN is seeing to it we aren't), were're going to have Chinese and N. Koreans and Muslim terrorists all over us and Israel.

But then you wouldn't know anything about that, because you grew up in a world where there was no "evil empire" and everything is America's fault.

Damn Communists and their Socialistic brethren in Europe.

You do realize N. Korea hates America don't you? Their people are forced to listen to their propogated crap 12 hours a day, I actually find their most recent propoganda poster though quite amusing.

It shows some buff N. Korean dude, chucking an artillery round at a cracked (shattered) US Capital building, with a giant explosion in the back ground.

Twitts. I pray that N. Koreans kick S. Korea's @ss, then brainwashes the 20 million peoples there into hating us too, and then invade our @ss. Just so after losing millions in battle (I'd love to fight man, nothing better to do anymore), we will finally be justified, and the whole world will know WE were right, and the UN was wrong.

Those damned bastards.

Not to mention a maniac.

Ah, I made TWO mistakes with Saphronia: first for assuming her nationality (at least, her non-nationality), and second for missing her point at the end of the first paragraph. So my apologies (but could I also ask for a little punctuation and capitalization to help us poor men understand you better? ).

You're absolutely right that this isn't just about a madman and his bombs. I think it's quite possible Hussein would leave us alone completely. With nods to Hammerite (that none of us has a clue about foreign policy), here's what's really going on IMHO:

The foremost strategy with all foreign and domestic actions is to protect the sovereignty of the United States. How that's done is tactics. Because of America's dependence on oil, we need the Middle East to keep us supplied. We'd prefer to pay for it, and make a lot of Arabs very rich. But when that supply is threatened, and when the money is used to fund terrorist attacks against us, our sovereignty is threatened, so we must act. Will women and children and old people get killed? Absolutely, and it's a terrible thing. Americans will also get killed, perhaps friends of mine.

Actually, I'm quite able to accept that we've started down a dangerous road. I don't like it either. But it may be necessary. To protect ourselves, we're going to re-structure Iraq and get it back to it's previous position as the second largest oil exporter. That will have a huge effect in the Mid-East:
- The importance of Saudi Arabia will decline, and our connection to them will be allowed to weaken. The Royal Family will have increased trouble with the clerics.
- Iran will be in turmoil, and may have a revolution soon because their younger generation will envy the new freedom Iraqi's have, and (Muslim) theological debate will migrate back from Iran to Iraq.
- Turkey will have difficulty controlling its Kurdish population who want independence, and it's Muslim population who will continue to hate everything American, and it's secular government that's trying to improve its economy.
- Jordan will no longer get free oil and subsidized oil from Iraq, so its economy will be in tatters.
- Qatar, UAE, Kuwait and Bahrain will prosper because they're on "our side", creating resentment from surrounding states.

It's absolutely a larger issue than just one guy. We're sending a signal to all countries that their problems cannot be allowed to spill over to the US.

(damn, too long a post once again; I'll work on that)

Still, should I waste my time with someone so hateful? For men who constantly deny the truths are impossible, that's why I said it is all up to them. And it is. The people who can't relate are only people who are sure of themselves, not people who know all the answers. Sorry I resort to the same things I hate. I was born out of this, lived and learn through such hate. So one can not blame me for being imperfect because I never said I am or not. I just say what we should be, not what we are. I understand this world is a two way street, and that the answers only come when the questions are asked, and vice versa. So when will the questions be asked??? When people see. You See????

MichiKami: you are forgiven for your assumption...i re-read my post and i can see where you might have mistook my nationality. At any rate...this war isn't about oil. It's the beginning of a policy of Pax Americana. Some folk in our government have been pushing this for years and they finally got their wish. We are about to embark on a whole new global strategy. I wish you all were looking...don't be blindsided.

I know a little about political science--i definately know a strategic goal when i see it. I would suggest that you all read at least some of the new National Security Strategy. It's 31 pages long...not too bad.

www.whitehouse.gov...

it would be a beautiful world if none of the countries citizens and governments opposed this democratization but all of the countries they are focusing on do...so war is inevitable.

Hammerite--i'm 27, i think that's pretty young. you make youth sound like a plague or something. whatever, I have a question for you why would anyone support something that they don't believe in? sorry cousin, that's just flawed thinking, imo.

No youth isn't the problem, thinking like a kid is. I know 18 year olds with more commonsense than many 30 year olds, it is quite sad. And likewise I know 20 year olds who are by far more stupid than 30 year olds.

Bad schooling in the good ol' USofA, your supporting a coup for Iraq shows how bad schooling in USA can be.

As for a Warmonger?

No, more like Greek. Or ancient Greek anyways.

You hurt my family, I'll poke out your eyes, burn down your house beat up your kids and then feed you your dog.

What's the problem with being a respectable warrior anymore (note for all spoons, the above statement is a joke of Ancient Greek way of life), I just want justice though.

The saddest thing is, the true heros will never be known, for they divert disaster before it happens.

If we had arrested 19 men on sept. 10th, and then exectuted them for plotting the deaths of thousands of Americans and hundreds of other nationals, do you know HOW MANY PEOPLE WOULD BE SCREEMING BLOODY MURDER?

You'd have all these damn same "peace activists" coming out of the wood work to say these 19 "so called terrorists" were targeted because they were Muslims and nothing else.

We can deal with Iraq now, or after Jerusalem is nuked, it's all up to you.

And Saphroina, I failed to explain the concept of "Support".

Supporting whatever decision is made (meaning if we don't attack Iraq, I'm not going to be throwing bricks at the white house saying "BOO YOU PU$$IES!" just like if we do attack Iraq, we shouldn't have people vandalizing the 9/11 memorial, yet there are people vandalizing the 9/11 memorial, and we haven't even attacked Iraq yet.)

Support means, no spitting on soldiers when they come home, no booing the government, no massive protests, Masses are @sses. Petitions are fine.

You can be supportive (meaning not destructive and crapping all over authority like hippies), and still sign petitions and such and vote for politicians that share your views.

For instance.

Ok here's the best reason I'll put it in bold.

This is democracy, your voice is heard by your vote, if the majority did not want war, then they wouldnt' vote for politicians who want war. Therefore if you don't want war, don't vote for a "hawk" politician.

Does this make sense? Good.

The problem today is the minority, the "losers" want their way, they whine like babies, throw trash at people spit at our soldiers and burn the flag.

These people are destructive to the Constitution, to Democracy, to America.

These people are "hippies", in my view of the word, a hippy being a person who is in the minority, but decides he's not going to follow what the majority says, no instead he's just going to go ahead and break all the laws because HE doesn't agree.

Well I'm sorry but this is a Democracy, and you fall in line with the Majority vote on things that are total, such as a law, you don't go...

"Well the majority thinks it's bad to smoke pot, but fuk them, I'm going to do it anyway, and shoot anyone who tries to stop me."

This is the same with war too, "Fuk the majority, I don't think war is right, so I'm going to join the Taliban or the Iraqis and teach those bastard US imperialists a lesson."

yes yes dramaticized but same concept.

"Screw you America, the majority may think it ok to attack Iraq, but I still don't, so I'm going to sh.it on the flag, burn the constitution, smoke some weed and then throw garbage at returning soldiers and sailors on shore leave."

Do you catch my drift?

That is UNSUPPORTIVE.

If you were supportive you would be like this.

"I don't agree with this war, so I'm only going to vote for which ever politician who wants to stop this war, and still best represents my other beliefs. But other than that, I will do nothing. I will not trash public places. I will not be a "rebel". I will accept the CURRENT majority decision, but continue to voice my opinion through votes, petitions, and communications. I won't force my opinions on others. Throw garbage at them because they don't agree with me, and burn the flag. I am 1 vote, and my voice is only worth 1 vote, so I will not try and take away other people's vote because I am in the minority.

I will accept my place in the minority, until the opinions of the nation change on their own, or until I die. I will not try to force my minority opinion, upon the government, leaving the majority confused and feeling guilty.

I will be "supportive".

That is the concept of Support.

America has been for about the past 60 years, under Minority rule.

Where the strongest voice wins out over the public concensus.

This "Minority Rule" disgusts me, and maybe someday I and the rest of America, will do something about these "Bolsheviks". (Bolsheviks were the minority, but forced their views on all of Russia, her territories, and the surrounding 14 nations, even though the masses didn't want the change. Afterwards they perpetuated their "Change" through propoganda, saying that they were progressing. Well they found it easy to progress past the backward ways they were in, but they couldn't catch up to the rest of the world. Now Russia is back into a semi-Majority Rule. Now that the "Party of Lenin" is gone for ever. Through out all of the 70 years of the Soviety Union, only 15% of the people were actually communists, the rest were forced into communism.)

Minority rule, is evil. And "Unsupportive" behavior, is a big part of it.

Quote///Hammerite//////////

This "Minority Rule" disgusts me, and maybe someday I and the rest of America, will do something about these "Bolsheviks". (Bolsheviks were the minority, but forced their views on all of Russia, her territories, and the surrounding 14 nations, even though the masses didn't want the change. Afterwards they perpetuated their "Change" through propoganda, saying that they were progressing. Well they found it easy to progress past the backward ways they were in, but they couldn't catch up to the rest of the world. Now Russia is back into a semi-Majority Rule. Now that the "Party of Lenin" is gone for ever. Through out all of the 70 years of the Soviety Union, only 15% of the people were actually communists, the rest were forced into communism.)

Minority rule, is evil. And "Unsupportive" behavior, is a big part of it.



SAIS """ HAMMERITE.""""................