Why I Believe The United States Will, Eventually, Break Apart

Note to mods:

as i site a lot of political polls and election statistics, i believed this belonged in this thread instead of the predictions thread. i am not making any specific predictive dates, its more political speculation based on facts. please move it if it is inappropriate.


today i had an interesting conversation with one of my friends. long story short, we both came to realize that we have entirely different perspectives, opinions, and expectations on society and government . i love him like my brother, but if we were to start a new country together, we would not agree on anything. the most interesting part was i had never disagreed so much with someone, yet the conversation was entirely civil, and extremely rewarding.

i took a lot from that conversation. i realized that with every vote i cast (with exceptions to drug laws...the one thing we agree on), he was canceling me out. these were issues that i find very important, like education, environmental regulations, gun laws, taxes, class war...you name it. i could see his side, and understand that his opinion is just as valid as mine, and that he has the best of intentions, but he would rather have it his way, and i mine.

i came home and decided to look up some polls. a lot of polls. i also looked at a lot of election numbers. now, i already feel the electoral college is a total scam, but as i looked at the numbers and the issues, in-depth, i realized something that meant more than just votes. we are split right down the middle, or close to it, ideologically and politically on almost EVERY SINGLE important issue in this country.

what does this mean?

299,398,484 total population 225,746,457 total population over 18 years 122,394,724 total number of US citizens that voted in 2008 election = 54% of population voted. Between 22 and 24 million Americans ages 18-29 voted, resulting in an estimated youth voter turnout of between 49.3 and 54.5 percent.

source

if only half of the people voted, roughly, that could vote in this country, and each president got only about half of those votes (obama 53% mccain 46%), only one out of every four people actually voted for one of these guys. 23% to 16% doesnt sound as impressive as 365 to 173 electoral votes.

one out of every four people in this country either dont care, or disagree with you. remember, mccain and obama both promised big things! universal health care, pulling out of the war in the middle east, development of green industries...have you seen the world around you? what makes anyone think mccain would have followed through with anything he said?

i remember reading back in 08 an article about a man named igor panarin who predicted the united states would dissolve this year. after looking at polls on many issues, i dont think hes that far off, and frankly, it doesnt sound like a bad idea anymore.

DISCLAIMER: this is just an observation, NOT a prediction. i didnt say 2010, igor did

from the right to own guns:

"What do you think is more important -- to protect the right of Americans to own guns, or to control gun ownership?"Right To Own Guns 46%, Control Ownership 46%, Unsure 7%

to illegal drugs:

"Do you think that the use of marijuana should be made legal or not?" Legal 44%, Not legal 54%, Unsure 7%

to immigration (whether you like it or not lol):

"Would you support or oppose a program giving ILLEGAL immigrants now living in the United States the right to live here LEGALLY if they pay a fine and meet other requirements?" Support 57%, Oppose 40%, Unsure 3%

"A new law in Arizona would give police the power to ask people they've stopped to verify their residency status. Supporters say this will help crack down on illegal immigration. Opponents say it could violate civil rights and lead to racial profiling. On balance, do you support or oppose this law?" Support 58%, Oppose 41%, Unsure 2%

notice that just as many people would rather keep them and make them legal as would kick them out...interesting.

to health care

"In general, do you support, oppose or neither support nor oppose the health care reforms that were passed by Congress in March?"
Support 45%, Oppose 42%, Neither 13%, Unsure 1%

now, i realize poll's are never perfect, and i realize that some can be skewed. nevertheless, i have checked other places, as you are more than welcome to do yourself, and for the really big issues they stay fairly stable.

as i reflect back on that conversation, i now have i new idea of a viable road to peaceful revolution: letting go. lets face it, there are many people in this country that, if they arent already, WOULD make decisions that effect my life in an extremely adverse way, and sinister or not, they would do it "for my own good." what if we could start anew before we destroy what is left? what if we all sat down, decided who we can get on board with, and just made a clean cut? we could get along on the same continent better, i feel, if we were free to live under a government that fit ideologically. we could work out trade agreements with each other, handle immigration problems our own way, and be able to have the freedoms or restrictions that we would agree with.
i also believe it would create a more healthy form of competition between us, since we wouldnt be squabbling as much about abortion rights or health care. we dont argue with other countries about how they handle such issues, but we get along with a good amount of them, and i wouldnt see us starting any ridiculous wars if we had to actually deal with the consequences on our own continent.
of course, this is assuming that we ALLOW the country to fall into bankruptcy and the war ends because we cant pay for it. bank cartels and war-profiteers need us to "stick it out," right?
what if the invisible had that controls you is really just your neighbor, but youre too afraid to say good bye?
thoughts?

Those who support government solutions to all their problems reject nullification, or as a final solution, secession.

There is a clear reason for this:

Socialism doesn't work if everyone is not enslaved.

For example, if Nevada seceded from the Union and slashed its government down to nothing, businesses would flock there in droves.

No taxes, no regulation, nothing to hinder them.

Since there is a finite amount of workers, resources, and industry, they would drain all the productive workers and corporations out of California.

California would implode. It would have nothing left except welfare cases.

California would either have to attack Nevada to put them under their thumb or simply devolve into nothing.

ahhh, i see. actually, without thinking of nullification (because it didnt occur to me), i was thinking of pretty much an abolished federal government. so that does make more sense than what i was saying.

I truly hope it does break apart.

Stick the jesus freaks in the southeast, let the loony leftists and socialist retards have the coasts, and let freedom loving individuals who dont want to impose their beliefs on the masses have the rest.

Keep your religion to yourself.

Dont like guns? Fine, dont own one, but dont take away my right to own one just because you have an irrational fear of an inanimate object.

Well, on the positive side, maybe there will be a more stabilizing influence on world governments in the not too distant future that will decrease a lot of friction between regions, states and countries. Although the New World Order is taking forever to get organized.

Any state or region really has to do some serious thinking and decide if they have the natural resources to make a go of it as an independent country. Some just don't, and would still be much better off as part of a larger, more powerful and prosperous entity.

Originally posted by brainwrek
I truly hope it does break apart.

Stick the jesus freaks in the southeast, let the loony leftists and socialist retards have the coasts, and let freedom loving individuals who dont want to impose their beliefs on the masses have the rest.

Perfect! I love it! I don't like either the Jesus freaks or the loony leftists. Too bad those seem to be the two main political parties.

It does seem like America will collapse. This whole world will because people are greedy that's why we can never find a foolproof solution to anything.

Ex. The reason we have starving people in this world is of the greedy corporation owners who want the money for themselves instead of donating it to charity.

Population really isn't a problem it's because people are picky about where they want to live and how much land they want to own.

Originally posted by Blue Shift
Any state or region really has to do some serious thinking and decide if they have the natural resources to make a go of it as an independent country.

If anyone could do it, it would be Texas. That state alone has the power both fiscally, territorially, population, resources and economic variety to make it on their own. The force of doing so would likely snap the rest of the USA back in line.

Alaska probably could pull it off too, but with less impact/influence on the US.

As far as the nation breaking apart, as long as technology and overall society remains intact, I don't see it being possible.

Opposing opinions does not necessarily translate into the breaking of the union. Disagreements are healthy and that is what has fueled this great nation to prosperity and a beacon for those seeking freedom. No where else on this planet are you able to enjoy the freedoms of disagreement other than our good Ol' Republic.

Those who wish to silence disagreement will be the cause of a rift that can eventually lead Americans to turn on Americans. Just look at how the Left was able to paint those who voted against Obama as Racists. Now those same individuals who voted for Obama are out there calling him a "Tanned Girly Girl with no back bone -- A La' Bill Maher & Joy Behar.

reply to post by prionace glauca


i agree with a lot of what youre saying, but some of our disagreements, such as abortion, are a huge factor on who gets elected. in fact, these issues are WHY people get elected. in the end of my thread i said this is all assuming we bankrupt as a country and the war ends, so im not just saying tomorrow we all get together and split. i guess im asking where would you go, or would you go at all if things had/were about to fail completely financially (which i see almost as an inevitability, not just a possibility). i wouldnt see everyone pulling together and building the entire country back up.

Originally posted by mooseinhisglory
i wouldnt see everyone pulling together and building the entire country back up.

I don't see the average person necessarily wanting to, but I most certainly see politician-types campaigning to.

The threat of foreign attacks, the fact that the midwest is the bread basket and the over populated states like California and New York needed the food, or any other non-local resources will make them want to join together.

Unlike colonial times, the smaller populations could make due with local resources, but today's modern metropolis' would take some states too much.

reply to post by mooseinhisglory


You would be honostly surprised how many people will step up to rebuild the country. And those trying to rebuild the country will not be the ones waiting on any sort of government intervention or permission to do so. Americans have a innate responsibility and drive to build. Just look at inventors America has turned out. Americans do not need the government to tell them what needs to be done, the Government feels that it needs to tell Americans what to do and have them dependent on the Government so those in power can remain in power.

The founders had formulated the constitution to keep the elected bodies in check, not to enslave the populace as the modern day congress seem to be doing at every corner.


[edit on 1-7-2010 by prionace glauca]

IT amazes me how easily people throw up their hands and give up on the United States. this country has done more humanitarian activities than any nation on the earth ever. Period (in case you didn't see it). Read the next hundred years by George fried man for a wake up call. In the mean time, please remove you and your family from my country where we respect those that have sacrificed to maintain it.

reply to post by ArcAngel


hey, man, my post is completely conjectural and based on flimsy polls. i love it here. i love the people i meet every day. ive been to every single state, and have great friends that i could literally call today who would let me crash at there place in almost every one of them.

this, however, is no reason to ignore our differences. this isnt a call to fall apart, and it shouldnt be surprising to you that i do know a lot of people who feel the same about what COULD happen IF the federal government had bankrupted and there was no longer a war to pay for.

but its funny...people like you prove that this is a possibility. so thanks for that.

I see a possible split coming too. The country is very divided, and it's a shame. In my opinion, the best way for us all to get along again is to remember the 10th amendment and go back to being a federal republic. Sorry, but we are not one nation. The USA was meant to be 50 nations (plus the native nations, puerto rico, guam, samoa, etc..) bonded together some matters, while the majority of matters were to be left to the individual states to decide. Let Kansas outlaw abortion and California have it. Let Massachusetts have gay marriage, Pennsylvania civil unions, and Georgia no gay matrimony. Let Colorado have legal cannabis and Mississippi outlaw it. We should bond together for external matters such as defense and let the individual states make their own policy on matters not delegated to the federal government in the Constitution. Let's have unity in diversity. For if not, I fear for the worst.

reply to post by exlibertateveritas


exactly the idea i have been trying to convey. i completely believe we could work better together if we werent chained by ideological differences.

I think the split is very black and white.

You have the 53% of the population that covers the entire tax bill for this country, and then you have the other 47% who leech off of those 53%. There's your divide.

If and when the leeches exceed 50%, its all over.

Well,there is nothing to worry.

The government is doing everything it can to import more people to become Americans.

Those who are in opposition to what is happening are all old and will probably die within a few years.

The illegals will get amnesty and fast tracked to citizenship.

All the refugees from the world over will become American citizens soon too.

In not to long there will be a all new population majority of American citizens who will not care about what the government does.

No matter how bad it mat seem it is better than where they came from.

That is the ultimate plan, create a whole new population of Americans.

They are doing the same thing in Britain and France too.

Get rid of the population and replace it with immigrants from some place else,preferably Catholic or Muslim so religion can control them too.

reply to post by mooseinhisglory


The political tide is changing though more and more average citizens want to play a part in their world and how it is changed and shaped. In my area of the country division is commonplace, and as much as no one would like to admit it, race relations play a big part in this.

Abortion-let the south and midwest outlaw it or restrict it.The coasts can have free reign on it....let it be allowed.The red states will be able to sustain there population without relying on immigrants. But the blue states will kill off there population eventually and resort to immigration to sustain population.

Gun control/gun rights- Let the red states be the bastion of gun rights. watch the crime rate fall.Let the blue states have higher crime rate and massacres like VT tech.

Welfare-let the red states cut off the leeches and become truly capatalist again. Let the blue states have a welfare nanny government and watch the debt and poverty pile up.

Immigration-let the red states blow all illegal immigration. Let the blue states become havens....and watch it all fall apart.

Gay marriage- red states ban it outright. Blue states allow it. If gay person born in red states wants to get married.....offer deportation to blue state.

Military- let red states have most powerful military on the face of the earth. Let blue states have hippies.

There......that sounds fine to me?

what do you guys think?