The Fall of the Elder Sons and the Rise of the New Sons.

When men began to multiply on earth and daughters were born to them,
the Sons of G-d saw how beautiful the daughters of man were, and so they took for their wives as many of them as they chose. Then the L-RD said: "My spirit shall not remain in man forever, since he is but flesh. His days shall comprise one hundred and twenty years." At that time the Nephilim appeared on earth (as well as later), after the Sons of G-d had intercourse with the daughters of man, who bore them sons. They were the heroes of old, the men of renown.

Genesis 6:1-4

Now those Sons, their Father, mighty Heaven, called by surnames Titans, upbraiding those he himself had begotten; and he was won't to say that, outstretching their hands in infatuation, they had wrought a grave act, but that for it there should be vegeance hereafter

Hesiod, The Theogony

In many ancient myths around the world, there is a story of two groups of gods. The first is a group of Elder gods. The Greeks called these elder gods the Sons of Heaven, the Titans. The Indian Vedas call them the Asuras. In Norse myth they are the Jotun. A second group appears, new gods who defeat the elder gods for control of the earth. The Olympians defeat the Titans, the Devas defeat the Asuras, and the Aesir defeat the Jotun.

In the Bible a similar tale is hinted at and implied.

There are a group of beings known in Hebrew as the Bnai ha Elohim, the Sons of G-d. The odd thing is that there appears to be two groups of them.

The first group is the antedilluvian or pre flood Sons. They are mentioned in Genesis. They are also mentioned in the Book of Enoch and the Book of Jubilees. Sometimes they are also called the Watchers. These Sons bore sons known as the Nephilim.

In Greek myth the Titans have offspring known as the Gigantes or the Giants. In the Vedas, a group of Asuras known as the Devanas revolt against the Devas and ally themselves with the Daityas, giants, igniting a massive war.

A similar conflict occurs in the Book of Enoch, resulting in the Great Flood sweeping the earth. The Elder Sons fall and are bound in the Deep. Their giant offspring are wiped out.

Only a few verses left in the Bible allude to the event.

The angels too, who did not keep to their own domain but deserted their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains, in gloom, for the judgment of the great day.

Jude 1:6

For if G-d spared not the angels that sinned but cast them down to Tartarus and delivered them into chains of darkness to be reserved unto judgment

2 Peter 2:4

Compare to the ancient Greek text The Theogony.

[In the war between the gods and Titanes, the Titanes were defeated and chained in the pit of Tartaros :] [The hundred-handed Hekatonkheires] overshadowed the Titanes with their missiles, and buried them beneath the wide-pathed earth, and bound them in bitter chains when they had conquered them by their strength for all their great spirit, as far beneath the earth to Tartaros

Hesiod, The Theogony

In the aftermath of the Great Flood, a new order rises.

The Human race is organized along 70 root nations in Genesis. Why 70?

Deteronomy may provide an answer.

When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the Sons of G-d.

Deteuronomy 32:8

Canaanite myth echoes this same idea, the Bnai Ha Elohim are 70 in number and they rule over the 70 root nations of humanity.

The chief of the 70 is the storm god Baal-Hadad. Compare Baal to the chief of the Olympians, the storm god Zeus or the chief of the Devas, the Vedic storm god Indra.

It appears it is the rise of new sons after the fall of the old ones, a new order created in the aftermath of a worldwide cataclysm and conflict.

Baal, Zeus and Indra have analogs all over the world, from En'Lil of Sumer, the August Jade Emperor of China, Set of Lower Egypt, Jupiter of Rome, and Perun of Slavic myth.

In the Bible though, who is the chief of these New Sons?

Now there was a day when the Sons of G-d came to present themselves before the L-RD and Satan came also among them.

And the L-RD said unto Satan Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the L-RD and said From going to and fro in the earth and from walking up and down in it.

Job 1:6-7

In the Christian testament, three times in the Gospel of John, Satan is called the "Cosmic Archon" (Ruler of the World) in the Greek. 2 Corinthians 4:4, Satan is called "god of the Aion". In Ephesians 2:2, he is called the Archon of the Authorities(exousias)of the Aeros.

Aeros in Greek myth was beneath the more distant Ouranos. Olympus, home of the Olympian gods was beneath the realm of Ouranos. In the Vedas, Indra's abode, Meru or Sumeru, is the highest heaven still connected to earth, the more distant heavens not being directly linked to earth. Even the abode of the Sumerian En'Lil is the nexus between Anu(Heaven) and earth. En'Lil himself is the Vicar of Anu and intercedes between Heaven and earth.

I wonder what the chances are of this all being coincidence?

It is my opinion, that all of the world religions and myths may point to an archetypal theomachy, where an elder divine order fell and a new divine order rose in its place.

What do you think?

I truly think you are on the correct track, the bible is a story book as is every other religious text. Now if they talk about humans who had lifted themselves to a position of god or about aliens noone knows.

offtopic: can you explain why god and lord are written with - instead of the o ?

reply to post by above


The lack of the vowel, is a Jewish sign of respect for the Divine name.

en.wikipedia.org...

I have seen mentioned something like this as the reason why Satan and his angels rebelled, that the noncorporeal angels were the old sons, and that the dirty mortal human clayballs were the new sons, and that the resentment/sibling-rivalry of some of the angels toward the unworthy human latecomers led to the fall of those angels...

Not that all this is in the Bible, itself, obviously...it's in that vast mass of "other stuff"...

Well you have plunged right into my mind with this thread and...oh !
You have some others ? you have many according to my beliefs and understanding. Thank you
s*f

reply to post by nine-eyed-eel


There is some of that in Islam. The Shaitan Iblis, also sometimes Azazil, refused to bow down to Adam.

Azazel appears as a Watcher in the Book of Enoch and the recipient of the scapegoat in the Bible. Unlike many of the other fallen sons who are said to be bound in the Deep (sometimes the Abyss or Tartarus), Azazel is bound on earth.

I could see possible motives for the fallen son's revolt against Heaven to involve some refusal to respect or honor humans.

[edit on 1/7/10 by MikeboydUS]

It's interesting, the Religious scholar Karen Armstrong has a great theory about the "old" and the "new" dieties in lots of different religious tradtions. To simplify, they represent different strata of human experience. For example, when man is a hunter-gatherer, he needs a very different sort of religion from an early agriculturalist. The former is involved with somewhat shamanic practices, such as establishing bonds with animals, traveling into the "other world" to cure, bring rain, bring hunted animals, etc etc. When man settles he has different needs. Time takes on a more cyclic rhythm defined by the seasons, planting, harvest, agriculture...new metaphors for the divine establish themselves, regarding the fertility of the earth, etc...totally different type of cosmology is used for explanation and different forces are invoked and revered. Still later, you have complex city-states where human behaviour is more specialized; you have concerns like money, trade, large-scale warfare, legitimizing the elites, etc.

All of these stages demand different forms of myth. Some reminants of the earlier stratum remian (Armstrong speculates that Artemis, Goddess of the Hunt, and Heracles are very ancient holdovers from a pre-agricultural stratum of hunter-based mythology), but in many ways the "old ones" or the "ancient gods" are banished in the way the Olympian Greek Gods defeated the Titans...you can find all sorts of examples, such as the way the Imperial Japanese form of Shinto kind of bulldozed over more local types of Kami worship, or Judeo-Christian-Islamic examples, etc.

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his Name.-John20.31

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his Name, he gave the right to become children of God-John1.12

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls-Rom9.11

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."-Acts4.12

For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.-Col1.16

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.-Matt28.18

In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. 9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.-Heb2.8

Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.-Eph1.20

On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.-Zech14.9

I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.-John5.25 I heard it

For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.-2Cor5.14

for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said: "Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."-Eph5.14

reply to post by silent thunder


Have you looked at the Indo-European mythological archetypes, sometimes called Proto Indo-European myth.

There doesn't appear to be a clear break between "hunter gatherer" pantheons and "domesticated" pantheons.

There does appear to be a transition from a supreme Sky or Heavenly Father figure to a more imminent Storm chief figure.

The Turks and Mongols were nomadic hunter gatherers and follwed Tengri/Tanri, their supreme Sky Father until many converted to Islam during the Mongol Conquests.

In Ancient China, Shangdi and Tien worship preceded the later gods.

There is Ouranos in ancient Greece.

Even in Sumer, An was the Sky father.

The Abrahamic, Sikh and Zorastrian faiths seem to be a resurrection of the Sky Father/Heaven worship.

Even in Hinduism, the Brahman is superior to Indra. In Taoism, the Tao is superior to the August Jade Emperor.

There seems to be a universal recognition of a supreme reality among all major faiths that overrules any cosmic archon or pantheon chief.

reply to post by No King but Jesus


Can you further elaborate? I'm not really seeing the point of posting random verses as a response to the thread.

You can't get through to people, unless you explain yourself. The Apostles didn't evangelize by making random quotes.

reply to post by MikeboydUS


I think all but one or two are easy enough to understand with out me re-writing anything besides I don't like writing/typing and love the term it is written

an important interpretation is that of the Pre-Adamite extraterrestrials.

presumably there were intelligent beings in existence prior to the creation of adam whose bodies were not created from the clay of earth. these beings are a superior race. but they were over-run by the decendents of adam. the article which i posted below indicates that the descendants of this superior pre-adamite race would still be walking the earth today.

there was a time when the possibility of "moon people" was considered legitimate.


in any case, i think that what we are talking about here are the created beings of god who were created before adam and not of this earth.

The men of the first creation, as detailed in Genesis 1, were created by the word of God. But Adam was created from the earth. Thus, the Jews are a separate species of mankind: “you shall finde,” writes La Peyrère, “the species of the Iews peculiarly made and formed by God in Adam; you shall finde the species of the Gentiles promiscuously created with the rest of the creatures in the same day of Creation . . .” There were many species of Gentiles, often unknown to the Jews, notably, “those of America, the Southern, and the Greenlanders, and the rest, to which neither the Jew, nor the rest of the Gentiles as yet had accesse.”

he suggested, that the inhabitants of the moon, rather than being infected with Adam’s sin, or with some of their own, “are not men as wee are, but some other kinde of creatures which beare some proportion and likenesse to our natures . . .”

ADAM, PRE-ADAMITES, and EXTRA-TERRESTRIAL BEINGS
PHILIP ALMOND
Journal of Religious History
Vol. 30, No. 2, June 2006

reply to post by MikeboydUS


i think there is a lot of validity to your theory. mainly because *surprise* it is one I share with you, more or less.

the bible mentions "generation" time and again. when Jesus tells the disciples that their generation will not pass until certain signs happen, i've always felt somehow that he was speaking of the souls who populate this age.

so, this just occurred to me. what does that make Jesus?

reply to post by tgidkp


yes.

and not made of a carbon-based outer body, these created beings!

maybe silicon or lithium or something like that, crystalline.

Originally posted by No King but Jesus
reply to post by MikeboydUS

 

I think all but one or two are easy enough to understand with out me re-writing anything besides I don't like writing/typing and love the term it is written

I'm looking over the quotes and trying to find the relevance in them in regards to the thread.

They are pretty much all verses about Jesus or Iesous.

Two concepts, the Logos and the Cosmic Man, which the Jewish philosopher Philo implies are one, are a hypostasis. This hypostasis is above and beyond the Bnai Ha Elohim.

So I'm still missing your point. I don't know if you have an issue with the Bible using the terms "Sons of G-d" or what?

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by above

 

The lack of the vowel, is a Jewish sign of respect for the Divine name.

en.wikipedia.org...

Is God a Divine name? Sounds like a title to me. Just like Satan is a God, a God of this world.

2 Corinthians 4:4 (King James Version)

4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


[edit on 1-7-2010 by The Great Day]

reply to post by queenannie38


sounds like you're on to something I always thought it meant the just the earth, does'nt this sound like "today"-

But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows-Matt11.16

And there was war in heaven.-Rev12.7

It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime—a day known to the LORD. When evening comes, there will be light.-Zech14.7

reply to post by tgidkp


Some people do interpret these Elder Sons and New Sons as extra-terrestrial.

This occurs especially in the writings of Sitchin, where the Annunaki or "Sons of Anu(Heaven)", are said to be inhabitants of an extra solar planet called Niberu. In Sitchin's version there is nuclear war between Enki and EnLil on earth.

Sitchin has alot of criticism and some of that criticism is justified.

My criticism comes from his lack of imagination. He's secular and mundane. As such he filters information through his mundane and secular thoughts. Concepts like hyperspace, cosmic horizons, and the multiverse are just too much for him.

The works of Max Tegmark and Michio Kaku, point to a stranger and bizarre multiverse beyond what Sitchin could ever dream of.

The Four Multiverse Levels of MIT professor Max Tegmark point to multiple cosmic horizons and these are beyond the dimensional horizons in our own universe. We are talking about levels of reality that are brain melting.


The Level IV mathematical multiverse

You can think of what I'm arguing for as Platonism on steroids: that external physical reality is not only described by mathematics, but that it is mathematics. And that our physical world (our Level III multiverse) is a giant mathematical object in the Level IV multiverse of all mathematical objects.

space.mit.edu...

That sounds familiar.

Like the Four Worlds of Kabbalah. The highest being the Supernal level of Atziluth, a Platonic realm of archetypes that transcend the world of Creation.

I don't think its coincidence.

In the various world myths, the Sons rule from a Cosmic Axis, often represented as a great mountain, though sometimes a great tree.

In myth the Cosmic Axis, exists below the higher heavens. It serves as a nexus between the more transcendent levels and the Earth.

If this cosmic axis is a type of Level II universe that links to our Level I universe, the beings from it would not be extra-terrestrial or even extra-dimensional but something else. Extra-cosmic might be a good term and hyper-cosmic could also work. Since they travel back and forth across the cosmic horizon, they could also be called trans-cosmic.

I would imagine Sitchin would have a hard time with parallel hypercosms and trans-cosmic entities.





[edit on 2/7/10 by MikeboydUS]

reply to post by The Great Day


You should read the link. Rabbinical scholars agree with you.

People still do it as a sign of respect though, which the article also mentions.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by The Great Day

 

You should read the link. Rabbinical scholars agree with you.

People still do it as a sign of respect though, which the article also mentions.

Nothing wrong with back up respect