American ATS'ers, What are you thinking of when you recite the Pledge of Allegiance?

Originally posted by tgidkp
i actually turn away when the veterans march the flag down the street during the july 4th parade.

Why would you even be at an Independence Day parade to begin with if you disagree so greatly with the ideology upon which it was founded?

It is one thing to not render respect, its another to proactively disrespect such as you have mentioned. As such I will not waste further time conversing with a disrespectful person.

Originally posted by C0le
.....holding onto nothing more than a fairy tale of what we once were while at the same time trapped in a reality that is so distant from the republic we were founded upon.....

this is American jingoism at its worst. WAKE UP, MAN!

the fantasy here is the belief that you are perpetuating: that "what we once were" ever existed in the first place.

i always have myself a nice laugh when i see that guy...whats his name...glenn beck, giving his honorific speeches about the glorious founding fathers. seriously?

I often wonder why the pledge is to the Flag and not to the Constitution.

I think the pledge should be like the Oath of Enlistment or Oath of Office, where allegiance is pledged to the US Constitution.

Plus I wonder if people would freak out if we started doing the Roman style Bellamy salute again.

Stupid Nazis ruining a perfectly good salute.

reply to post by Wolf321


i am not thinking of it as a respect/disrespect issue.

to me, i am simply not acknowledging the supposed power or authority which has been assumed over me without my consent since my birth.

further, i have no problem with the ideology itself. i dont like the way that it is forced.

as a further example lets take the issue of taxes. i acknowledge that taxes are necessary....and i am more than willing to PAY them. but when they are TAKEN from out of my paycheck without my consent, then i am no longer a willing participant. i am a slave.


so, in terms of the original topic: the day that i will start saying the pledge again is the same day that it is OKAY for me to NOT say the pledge at all. it is the fact that i am REQUIRED to do it that is the problem.

Originally posted by tgidkp

Originally posted by C0le
.....holding onto nothing more than a fairy tale of what we once were while at the same time trapped in a reality that is so distant from the republic we were founded upon.....

this is American jingoism at its worst. WAKE UP, MAN!

the fantasy here is the belief that you are perpetuating: that "what we once were" ever existed in the first place.

i always have myself a nice laugh when i see that guy...whats his name...glenn beck, giving his honorific speeches about the glorious founding fathers. seriously?

It's a good thing I don't agree with anything beck says, because he says them for all the wrong reasons. He plays into the left vs right game while pretending to be neutral even thought his history proves exactly what he is.

I know what this country was and was not, and it was far from glamorous, its always had its issues even during its founding the same issues existed. but for a very short time a republic did exist it may have died but the idea lingered on and has all but been forgotten.

The idea died when the greatest lie ever told was believed and the lie being that we are a democracy.

When the lie spread our rights were deprived slowly and slowly until we were no longer a land which protects the rights of the few but a land who votes the rights of the few away on a whim.

The republic died a long time ago.

reply to post by C0le


the only concept of this nations' founding which makes any sense to me at all is: "DON'T TREAD ON ME."

Originally posted by tgidkp
reply to post by C0le

 

the only concept of this nations' founding which makes any sense to me at all is: "DON'T TREAD ON ME."

I think of all the people who've paid the ultimate sacrifice to keep that pledge alive. I'm saluting them if/when I'm in a position to recite the pledge.

Regardless if I agree with it or not - I've a profound respect for the Men and Women of America who lost their lives, and the Veterans who sacrificed their lives for that very pledge.

I think of them.

peace

Edit all bold

[edit on 30-6-2010 by silo13]

Thanks for all the replies so far

You know, I should have expected it (being on ATS and all), but I'm surprised with the amount of people who have a problem with the Pledge (and for the record, I'd be one of them if I was over there) .

I can also see how having to do something everyday (as opposed to actively making a choice to do so) would have a profound impact on that persons psyche. Especially if that person felt the activity had little or no actual purpose.

I'm not bashing the Pledge – Everybody has the right to their own belief – but this is what I wanted to find out, whether the person would accept the Pledge as it's written, concoct a personal version in their mind, or just outright refuse to participate.

I could just imagine a class of little ATS'ers being told to stand to recite the Pledge: Pure and utter chaos!

I think of all the people who've paid the ultimate sacrifice to keep that pledge alive. I'm saluting them if/when I'm in a position to recite the pledge.

Silo13 - Respect for your fellow people who have kept an idea you believe in alive is a noble trait.

"DON'T TREAD ON ME."

tgidkp - I agree, nobody should have the right to impose their will on another (without that persons informed consent).

I often wonder why the pledge is to the Flag and not to the Constitution.

MikeboydUS - That's what I wondered. To me it would make more sense to affirm the founding ideals of a country (if you agree with them), rather then the symbolism associated with that country.

Perhaps I am pledging to the freedoms the US provides to me.

Hitotsumami - Again, nothing strange about that. Freedom isn't suited to everybody, but for most people here it would seem to be a driving force behind their personal philosophy.

If I had to attach a meaning to it today, I guess that it evokes a sense of commitment to "home"

LadySkadi - Completely understandable. Although I've been away from NZ for years and years, I still get a little homesick when I think of where I grew up.

As far as what my intent when saying the pledge is to adhere to, foster and defend the principles and ideals set forth in the Declaration of Independence, the constitution, and the writings of the founders on matters of freedom in the US, as well as the positive characteristics demonstrated by the people over the course of the nations history

Wolf321 - Your words are chosen well. Nice mix of the institutional and personal ideas that you observe. Can't fault ya for any of this!

Is the North American cockroach superior to the European cockroach? Are they, in turn, superior to cockroaches found on any other continent?

CosmicEgg - No, not superior, but that same cockroach may return to it's original breeding ground to reproduce if given a choice. It's where (even at an insect level) a sense of familiarity is achieved, and with that safety and the feeling of comfort and security.

Now, when it comes to the Star-Spangled Banner, it's a different story because this one has got what it takes and doesn't sound like it was written by a lawyer.

Alxandro - Absolutely. Music expresses more of the soul of a nation then a Pledge ever could. I love the NZ national anthem, and respect it almost like it was a living thing (which I guess you could argue it was) Anthems are far more then just a 'theme song'

Anyhow, keep 'em coming!
Respectfully
Shane

the song "The Decline" by NOFX and the t'shirt of theirs I have. maybe you seen it, maybe not.

For me personally, I'm pledging allegience to the brave men and women who fight for our country, both my grandpas that fought for my freedom. To, if or when the time comes, to stand together with my fellow Americans to defend our liberties and freedoms. Maybe it's cliche, but in my opinion the saying "Together we stand, divided we fall" is really what it's all about. Besides what I think it means when recited, i also think about the pride I feel for my country and how moving it is to see so many people put aside their differences, even if momentarily. It gives me goosebumps sometimes


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Interesting thread..

I too learned the Pledge in kindergarten and was more or less forced to say it all through Grade School and as far as I can remember I always thought it was BS, I still do today.

I really don't like the way Patriotism has been rammed down our throats since day one, this is all about brainwashing the public to maintain control over us like cattle. The same sort of tactics have been used bye every Cult/Religion etc to come along.

I really don't see how our government is any difference considering the people have had no real control over what is supposed to be a Democracy almost since its inception. Fresh out of High School I spent 6 years in the Military and a have a good amount of respect for all who choose to serve no matter what country they may be from.

This in no way means I have or am required to have any deep loyalty to any Country. We cant choose who are parents are or on what chunk of land we are born on and other views should not be forced upon anyone no matter who is doing it be it a person or the Government you are born under.

The only one I owe any allegiance to if at all is the woman who bore me.

When I look at how our Government evolved to where it is today and all the symbolism its made of it really doesn't look any more appealing to me than say Scientology, the sheeple mentality that most Americans now embrace makes me want to puke.

Its interesting that we are supposed to have the freedom to do as we wish yet when a person exercises their right to not fall in line and bow to Old Glory they get all irate about it and your freedom to do so is the last thing on their mind.

That said I wont recite the pledge or show allegiance to any flag simply because I don't believe in the controlling body behind it and its use as a way to control us. All this aside I enjoy my life and the good people of our nation and helping others where I can.
I pay my taxes, enjoy my career and will continue to exercise my freedom not to worship the symbols of our Federal Government regardless of where I am or what others may think.

How can our society be a free one when an ideal is forced upon us until we believe it ? it can't.

The only one I owe any allegiance to if at all is the woman who bore me.

Candycab, that's brilliant!

Honestly, whenever I hear and/or recite the pledge, I think back to 3rd grade.

Standing there, doing it and looking at a bulletin board that the flag hung over. On there was all kinds of newspaper clippings/photos of the Indiana uprising (I guess) at Wounded Knee.

I could never understand why they were resisting a wonderful gov't like ours?......

As most here have indicated, I also have not recited the Pledge of Allegience since grade school.

A note, though....... it isn't just a plege to the flag. I think that because of the cadence of the pledge, it may sound that way, but what it is really about, imo is

I pledge allegience to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands....... The republic for which the flag is symbolized by.

I think that if youngsters are expected to recite it, that at the beginning of each semester, a study should be done in class to educate their hungry minds as to the meaning of the words -- and then allow them to choose if they want to say it.

I admit that the Star-Spangled Banner still touches me when I hear it. I respect poetic license, but still not crazy about some singers who persist in dragging it out, or inserting several wandering phrases.

reply to post by shamus78


The ideology that our Constitution is designed to protect, imho, is,

(From the Declaration of Independance)

www.ushistory.org...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

So, to reiterate, when I say my pledge, I am pledging to the land, (the physical country in which I live and was born) to "The people" of which I am one, and to the Constitution, which was designed to safeguard the ideology I find elaborated in our declaration of Independence from the last group of sociopaths.

The flag itself I do not "worship," I honor it as it is a physical representation of these things to me. Each star for a state, and the bars for the original thirteen colonies who gave us this nation. It represents the birth, and current condition of the physical country in which I live.

Just because the things I hold dear are in thrall currently to a new group of sociopaths, who are seizing our nation from the inside does not confuse me into thinking I should not be loyal to my country. In fact it reinforces my loyalty to my country, and redoubles my determination to see her once again a nation true to its foundational values, rather than a mockery of them.

Originally posted by argentus

I admit that the Star-Spangled Banner still touches me when I hear it.

Yes. And "America the Beautiful" also touches me as well.

[edit on 30-6-2010 by Illusionsaregrander]

reply to post by Wolf321


So you have researched other options? You chose to be a US citizen? You made that choice, did you? You were born there, were you not? How many generations? And tell me: what are you most proud of about your country? Why is it best there?

Please feel free to write tomes on this subject. I'm sure we'd all love to have those amazing qualities to admire about the US as well. I'm still a US citizen, despite having lived elsewhere for quite a while. I know why I left. Describe for us why things are so great there. I might be tempted to come back.

reply to post by shamus78


Well, shamus78, those Mexicans have every right to be in Arizona then. That was their territory. Might want to remind Border Patrol of that next time you're passing through. And the injuns might want some of their lands back, if y'all don't mind too much. Hey, I know. You all could return to your original breeding grounds. There's some room over here across the water for you peeps still.

Originally posted by argentus


I think that if youngsters are expected to recite it, that at the beginning of each semester, a study should be done in class to educate their hungry minds as to the meaning of the words -- and then allow them to choose if they want to say it.

So in other words, shove it down their throats until they spew it back with gusto! Sounds decidedly dystopic. Orwell fan, are we?

What about having open, clean, bright minds rather than washed brains?

reply to post by CosmicEgg

So in other words, shove it down their throats until they spew it back with gusto! Sounds decidedly dystopic. Orwell fan, are we?

What about having open, clean, bright minds rather than washed brains?

Yes, as a matter of fact, I'm a great fan of Eric Arthur Blair, but that wasn't exactly what you were asking was it? I do not subscribe to an Orwellian societal construct, if that is what you were implying.

I'll add bold to my post for emphasis:

I think thatifyoungsters are expected to recite it, that at the beginning of each semester, a study should be done in class to educate their hungry minds as to the meaning of the words -- and then allow them to choose if they want to say it.

I don't mind a bit if you disagree with my post -- in fact that's part of what makes this a great place to discuss issues, the ability to civilly disagree. I'm just confused how you could read what I wrote as "shoving it down their throats."

IF children are to recite it, shouldn't they know what it means, and then have a choice whether to say it?