Top Expert comes forth: 9/11 Bldg 7 downed with explosives

Originally posted by Doctor Smith

Their was a Slight lean. This is normal for controlled demolition.

You said that if it was a natural collapse, it should lean in the direction of the damage. It leaned slightly in the direction of slight damage it received from 1's collapse. Proving your thought to be correct.

Now you're backpedaling.

Hypocrite.

And a little buckling of some of the steel beams isn't going to cut it. They would have to all fail at the same time or it would simply fall over if anything.

That's exactly what they did. the core columns failed first, over several seconds. Proof is the penthouses. This led to long span ext columns that buckled.

The buildings are over built to withstand these types of forces.

There was NO building code that addresses this type of progressive collapse when 7 was built. I believe only federal buildings have this requirement.

So you're lying.

NIST computer animation failed to reproduce a collapse similar to what actually happened to building 7.

Why am I not surprised that the you tube generation looks at animations as their evidence....

Try attacking the science for a change.

Came up with unlikely theories like thermal expansion causing beams to jump off their supports

I know I'm just wasting my time here, but do you have an engineering study that says that the beam in question couldn't thermally expand?

Cuz all I see is your incredulity, which means nothing to any rational person.

Science is based on experiments. All the experiments prove it is impossible.

You don't have these experiments that back your belief.

Therefore you are lying.

Therefore if their is absolutely no scientific evidence of a global collapse of a steel frame building in the history of mankind without CONTROLLED DEMOLITION, I conclude that it was demolition.

I conclude that structural engineers and fire engineers know their job pretty well. This is why it doesn't happen.

So unless you're willing to say that nothing accidental can happen for the first time, then you're in error.

If you have faith in your assessment, then explain the 2 shuttle disasters. One was destroyed by a bad o-ring, and the other by a piece of foam. Both highly engineered. But destroyed nevertheless.

And I know I'm right as no one can come up with any example of a total global collapse of a steel frame building without controlled demolition. When I see it I'll believe it.

I'm sure you actually believe this.

But it is delusional.

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade

Originally posted by Thermo Klein
alright... I'm done with the FeS+FeO / paint chip / thermite / "phases of steel" debacle... we all clearly have no idea what we're talking about at any provable level.

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
Weird, It doesn't look like that at all to me. Only one person on here came up with the incorrect formulation for a reaction. Only one thought that Sulfur = heat.

ok, so you're calling me wrong about Sulfur's role in a reaction. What do you think sulfur's purpose is??

(by the way, don't try to put this responsibility on me, I've made gunpowder and I know Sulfur's role, if you're gonna to call me wrong it's your job to say why.)

Originally posted by Six Sigma

Originally posted by Thermo Klein
Here's a woman standing, un-burned in the exact location of the airplane strike - and the people who believe the original story have the audacity to say the building collapsed because of heat... unimaginably ignorant.

That woman was murdered that day, it was the last day of her life. I truly look forward to justice being realized.

Sadly, this woman jumped to her death. She certainly couldn't have know a collapse was imminent. Why would she jump?

No way you're this ignorant, do you just feel the need to question and challenge every single little detail??

The amount of heat required to make someone jump from a window is far, far, far, FAR less than it takes to cause a building collapse.

reply to post by Thermo Klein


It depends. I just know enough about science to know that "Sulfur = heat" is wrong. And I know that your definition of a reaction is wrong. It's plain to even the lay reader that pteredine knows a lot more about it than you, and that you've backed away from the argument as a result. There's no shame in that. As you've admitted, you were incorrect about the thermite discovery. Well done for acknowledging that.

Originally posted by LieBuster
You can tell TPTB realy don't want another investigation even when half the world belives this was an inside job.

i wonder why they don't try to clear their names or are they so powerfull that they don't need to.

Originally posted by GenRadek
By the way, I watch cars drive by my house. So that makes me a top expert car mechanic!

No it does not but we all know what a car crash looks like without being experts and clearly the buildings were imploded.

You don't learn physics from computer games

Probaly because the so called powers that be have aleready been cleared. Why would they want another investigation, when one has aleready been performed? I am not sure of the link but M.I.T. listed their finding on 9/11, not to mention the other numerous peer reveiwed articles proving the truth movement wrong. Face it, the truth movement is a fringe minority, and tptb do not care what you think. Not trying to be a ass just stating the truth.
If you need sources mabye iampc, or dave can site them being their posts is where I saw them.

[edit on 1-7-2010 by Skeptron]

Originally posted by Skeptron

Originally posted by LieBuster
You can tell TPTB realy don't want another investigation even when half the world belives this was an inside job.

i wonder why they don't try to clear their names or are they so powerfull that they don't need to.

Originally posted by GenRadek
By the way, I watch cars drive by my house. So that makes me a top expert car mechanic!

No it does not but we all know what a car crash looks like without being experts and clearly the buildings were imploded.

You don't learn physics from computer games

Probaly because the so called powers that be have aleready been cleared. Why would they want another investigation, when one has aleready been performed? I am not sure of the link but M.I.T. listed their finding on 9/11, not to mention the other numerous peer reveiwed articles proving the truth movement wrong. Face it, the truth movement is a fringe minority, and tptb do not care what you think. Not trying to be a ass just stating the truth.
If you need sources mabye iampc, or dave can site them being their posts is where I saw them.

[edit on 1-7-2010 by Skeptron]

Sources from the Journal of Engineering Mechanics, the Journal of Structural Engineering, the Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities, the Practice Periodical on Structural Design and Construction, the American Society of Civil Engineers, the Civil Engineering staff at the most prestigious engineering university on the planet, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, as well as all the other universities Northwestern and Perdue.

all sources cited here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Thermo Klein

gunpowder

LMAO.

Gunpowder.

You've made gunpowder before.

And that qualifies you to understand the role of sulfur in thermate...

There's this new thing that people sometimes use when they lack information. It's called Google. i suggest you use it.

en.wikipedia.org...


"In addition to thermite, thermate also contains sulfur and sometimes barium nitrate, both of which increase its thermal effect, create flame in burning, and significantly reduce the ignition temperature"

"The sulfur generates a eutectic system when molten thermate interacts with iron or steel, lowering the melting point of iron."

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
reply to post by Thermo Klein

 

It depends. I just know enough about science to know that "Sulfur = heat" is wrong. And I know that your definition of a reaction is wrong. It's plain to even the lay reader that pteredine knows a lot more about it than you, and that you've backed away from the argument as a result. There's no shame in that. As you've admitted, you were incorrect about the thermite discovery. Well done for acknowledging that.

How did I know there was NO WAY in the world you were actually gonna research this on your own...

I've loved science all my life, had a few college level chemistry, organic chem, and physics classes, made gunpowder, guncotton, and nitroglycerin in my backyard as a kid. I know a few things about hands on chemistry.

By the way, I think it's PATHETIC when someone will call you wrong but have no proof whatsoever...

So, together, after MY research... I'll prove myself (slightly) wrong, thank you.

From wikipedia (I know... it was tough to find, took almost 1 second!):

Black powder is a granular mixture of a nitrate, typically potassium nitrate (KNO3), which supplies oxygen for the reaction;
charcoal, which provides carbon and other fuel for the reaction, simplified as carbon (C); sulfur (S), which, while also serving as a fuel, lowers the temperature required to ignite the mixture, thereby increasing the rate of combustion.

So the sulfur doesn't mean "heat" per se, but it does increase the explosivity. What it does, precisely, is lower the required temperature to ignite the mixture. As I learned it as a kid the charcoal was the fuel (see CavemanChemistry.com, says exactly this) and potassium nitrate (aka saltpeter) is the oxidant. Sulfur, as it turns out works both as a fuel and speeds the rate of combustion providing a faster explosion.


By the way...

originally posted by TrickoftheShade
It's plain to even the lay reader that pteredine knows a lot more about it than you, and that you've backed away from the argument as a result. There's no shame in that.

You're incorrect in my reasons for leaving the argument... but then you're probably laughing as you come up with this BS you write, so you probably knew that.

[edit on 1-7-2010 by Thermo Klein]

Originally posted by Joey Canoli

Originally posted by Thermo Klein

gunpowder

LMAO.

Gunpowder.

You've made gunpowder before.

And that qualifies you to understand the role of sulfur in thermate...

You randomly make up things about people, can't understand that chemistry is the basis of both types of explosives...

and that qualifies you to be part of the conversation...

LMAO

Originally posted by Joey Canoli
en.wikipedia.org...

"In addition to thermite, thermate also contains sulfur and sometimes barium nitrate, both of which increase its thermal effect"

Gosh... that sounds amazingly like sulfur = heat

Originally posted by Thermo Klein

Originally posted by Joey Canoli
en.wikipedia.org...

"In addition to thermite, thermate also contains sulfur and sometimes barium nitrate, both of which increase its thermal effect"

Gosh... that sounds amazingly like sulfur = heat

I'm quite sure that to you, it does.

Rational people realize that when you combine this part with the quote about eutectics, that it has zero effect on the actual heat output, just makes the effect of that heat work more efficently.

IOW, we all know that you will never realize this simple statement.

Originally posted by Joey Canoli

Originally posted by Thermo Klein

Originally posted by Joey Canoli
en.wikipedia.org...

"In addition to thermite, thermate also contains sulfur and sometimes barium nitrate, both of which increase its thermal effect"

Gosh... that sounds amazingly like sulfur = heat

I'm quite sure that to you, it does.

Rational people realize that when you combine this part with the quote about eutectics, that it has zero effect on the actual heat output, just makes the effect of that heat work more efficently.

IOW, we all know that you will never realize this simple statement.

Do you mean the eutectics of K2S(s) or Al2O3?

reply to post by Thermo Klein


Black gunpowder undergoes deflagration and will not really explode unless it is in a closed vessel that bursts at pressure. This would be akin to a grain elevator explosion. The sulfur helps a little, but other deflagrators don't use it.
Something like nitroglycerin [a common name that is a misnomer, as it is actually a nitrate ester] explodes through an entirely different mechanism. Sulfur doesn't help and would only hurt.
Nitrate esters and nitro compounds [and certain others] undergo something called detonation, the result of a shock wave travelling through the material. For an explanation of thermohydrodynamics and a discussion of the physics see the ACS monograph, "The Science of High Explosives" by M.A. Cook.
If you actually did synthesize NG in high school, you were fortunate not to have hurt yourself. The synthesis must be done carefully and the temperature controlled closely. If you add nitrating mixture too rapidly, it overheats and will explode.

Originally posted by Thermo Klein


So the sulfur doesn't mean "heat" per se

QED. Why do I have to "prove" you wrong? We both know you're wrong.

You're incorrect in my reasons for leaving the argument... but then you're probably laughing as you come up with this BS you write, so you probably knew that.

[edit on 1-7-2010 by Thermo Klein]

You wrote this. I thought it conclusive.

I'll accept that I don't have enough to prove there was thermite there

Originally posted by pteridine
reply to post by Thermo Klein

 

Black gunpowder undergoes deflagration and will not really explode unless it is in a closed vessel that bursts at pressure. This would be akin to a grain elevator explosion. The sulfur helps a little, but other deflagrators don't use it.
Something like nitroglycerin [a common name that is a misnomer, as it is actually a nitrate ester] explodes through an entirely different mechanism. Sulfur doesn't help and would only hurt.
Nitrate esters and nitro compounds [and certain others] undergo something called detonation, the result of a shock wave travelling through the material. For an explanation of thermohydrodynamics and a discussion of the physics see the ACS monograph, "The Science of High Explosives" by M.A. Cook.
If you actually did synthesize NG in high school, you were fortunate not to have hurt yourself. The synthesis must be done carefully and the temperature controlled closely. If you add nitrating mixture too rapidly, it overheats and will explode.

Excellent. In case it's not unbelievably obvious I would have never considered adding sulfur to NG

By the way, I assume you know this but for others interested, the chemicals can be at room temperature as long as one specific chemical is mixed INTO the other specific liquid. I'm sure everyone on this thread is already an expert in the matter of making Nitroglycerin (sic) so 'nuf said.

Originally posted by Thermo Klein
By the way, I assume you know this but for others interested, the chemicals can be at room temperature as long as one specific chemical is mixed INTO the other specific liquid. I'm sure everyone on this thread is already an expert in the matter of making Nitroglycerin (sic) so 'nuf said.

The nitrating mixture can be made at room temperature but good mixing and a fume hood is needed. The reaction to produce the nitroglycerin can be done correctly at about 22 C. 27-30 C is the dangerous upper limit. Ice water is kept handy to quench any reaction that gets too warm. The product should be washed with a buffer to remove any excess acid or it will become unstable over time.


[edit on 7/1/2010 by pteridine]

reply to post by pteridine


Since you randomly provide far more information than necessary I'm very surprised you didn't mention that if you add Sulfuric to Nitric everything's fine, whereas if you add Nitric to Sulfuric it will instantly blow up... but I'm sure you knew that.

Could we be anymore off topic? lol
It is fun though - haven't thought about chemistry of explosives in years!

Originally posted by Thermo Klein
Do you mean the eutectics of K2S(s) or Al2O3?

Refer to the wiki article.

It pays to be informed.

Originally posted by Joey Canoli

Originally posted by Thermo Klein
Do you mean the eutectics of K2S(s) or Al2O3?

Refer to the wiki article.

It pays to be informed.

Nice try LMAO - I knew you didn't know which one ROFL!!

It ~does~ pay to be informed.

i agree building seven came down in a control demolition but the towers look like they came down that way to.