The Four Horsemen?

Lately I've seen a few posts pointing out how the Gulf oil tradgedy could be part of biblical prophesy. How the ocean would turn black and a third of it and the sea creatures would die. For this to be true the four horsemen have to have already come... And this is where I started my research. I know this may have been covered before, but I wanted to post this as I believe others may have some insight into this and collectively we may be able to piece it all together.

So the first horsmen is described as follows: Revelations Chapter 6

6 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

My guess is Adolf Hitler. The reasons are as follows. His white horse was the desire and propaganda of a single WHITE Aryian race. A bow is a method of delivering an arrow and in Adolfs youth he was a delivery boy. Not just A delivery boy but from what I read the luckiest messenger boy ever.



3 When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” 4 Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.

I believe this to be the birth of the Communist movement. The rider could be whoever was most repsonsible for it's growth through the world. When communism arrived, Democracy and the West had a global enemy realized and the two factions spurred on and enabled countless wars and death.



5 When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6 Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “A quarta of wheat for a day’s wages,b and three quarts of barley for a day’s wages,c and do not damage the oil and the wine!”

This I feel is the now President of the USA Barack Obama (Is it coz I is Black?) . The scales represent the economic recession and the part where the beasts speak about damaging the oil???? Haha well we all know how that fits.



7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

This I fear could be whoever sets off the next world war. Pale in Hebrew I read was meant to mean a sickly green colour and could represent the use of Nuclear weapons or Bio weapons, Gas etc. This type of fall out would result in disease and maybe famine.


So with all that said. I think we are in the midst of the Black Horse and his rider Obama, and soon after will come the the fourth horse bringing the next world war. What are your thoughts?

reply to post by ka0s69

My theory on the Four Horsemen, which I've already outlined in a thread of my own. is as follows;
The traditional interpretation of them was "Plague, War, Famine, and Death."
My view on the subject is that the traditional view got it right, and that Revelation ch6 sees them coming together, adding up to one massive catastrophe for the world.
In other words, I do see the possibility that recession and war could bring disaster to the world, and that the oil trouble could be an aspect of the recession and famine; but I would just take a slightly different way of seeing this as a fulfilment of Revelation ch6

My original argument is on the attached link;

Four Horsemen



[edit on 26-6-2010 by DISRAELI]

Its easy to apply prophecy retrospectively to events that appear to fit. So many different events in history can be interpreted to be a fulfilment of prophecy. Dont waste your time on it because its all there to keep us in line through fear.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Interesting theory, but I'm sure you could agree that these events happening over the space of less than 100 years could be looked at in the grand scheme of things as "all together" the 70 odd year timeframe I put forward would be seen as miniscule when being prophesied about thousands of years ago...

reply to post by Firefly_



Thanks Firefly, I agree there is a wealth of situations out there that we can apply prophesy too but I'm not wasting too much time, just a side thought is all. I would't want to waste all my time trying to figure it out but when things fall into place like they have it's hard not to point it out.

reply to post by ka0s69

Well, if the devastating events described under the "Fourth Horseman" come to pass, the exact interpretation of what led up to them would be less important anyway.
We're not in disagreement on two thoughts;
That the Fourth Horseman has not yet been seen.
And that events in the world today might be a precursor to that catastrophe.





[edit on 26-6-2010 by DISRAELI]

reply to post by DISRAELI


I agree! I really do think we are witnessing the third horsemen and maybe the others aswell, and the fourth will come soon.

Im not 100 percent on the first two but Obama and the recession just seems to fit the third so well don't you think?

Every generation believes it is living in the time of the end. Imagine how the people must have thought during the plague. Yet we are still here.

Prophecy is cleverly written, much like astrology (which is where religion originated from), where it can be interpreted to fit many different things. It can also be self-fulfilling by crazy people with resources to bring it about.

Then theres the problem with the inaccurate scriptures that have been edited, mistranslated, added to and taken from, by corrupt religous leaders. There is NO WAY TO KNOW what was originally written down.

So, quit wasting your time.

I can see people in 2000 years taking some novels from our times and doing the same with them.

reply to post by Firefly_


I agree with you in some respect. I too think that taking every word in the Bible as fact would seem silly. Translation and editing alone is cause for discrepancy. The fact that it was used for the gain of MAN through RELIGION presents more than enough reason for the book to be tampered with.

But in saying that don't throw the lot away. There are still some fantastic scriptures and ideals in there. A wealth of knowledge, some cryptic and some not, but none the less, mostly valuable.

Originally posted by ka0s69

Im not 100 percent on the first two but Obama and the recession just seems to fit the third so well don't you think?

I can't help thinking that the famine situation described under the third horseman is worse than the recession has yet produced.
Similarly on plague- bird flu and swine flu had the potential for world-wide plague, but it hasn't happened yet.
There is potential for war, but the major war hasn't happened yet.
So to me, we're still in the territory of potential disaster rather than actual disaster.
But once Death has power over a quarter of the earth, I'm sure we'll agree that the Fourth Horseman has arrived.

Originally posted by ka0s69
My guess
I believe
I feel
I fear
I think

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts?

Stop using the bible as a crystal ball for doom.

Originally posted by ka0s69
reply to post by Firefly_

 

I agree with you in some respect. I too think that taking every word in the Bible as fact would seem silly. Translation and editing alone is cause for discrepancy. The fact that it was used for the gain of MAN through RELIGION presents more than enough reason for the book to be tampered with.

But in saying that don't throw the lot away. There are still some fantastic scriptures and ideals in there. A wealth of knowledge, some cryptic and some not, but none the less, mostly valuable.

To make a lie convincing it needs to be mixed with the truth. Making a belief structure and living your entire life based on a book you know has lies in it is completely stupid.

There is only one thing in the bible that is true beyond any reasonable doubt. That is the part where you are told to treat others how you wish to be treated. This is as close to true freedom as you can responsibly get. Anything else is just there to control.

Call me weird I guess, I am more of a 1st century Christian believer, I think we all have forgotten the important messages, I don’t believe in the Dispensations of the Ages this concept in Christianity first really became popular in the 19th century when John Darby popularized it in an 1827 book, he got the idea mainly from a Jesuit Priest named Francisco Ribera who after the Protestant Reformation was directed by the Pope to come up with an idea to direct the Protestants belief at the time he was not the anit-Christ, Ribera came up with the idea the Prophecies of the Bible were not complete but wore meant for future times, you see before that Christians believed the Old Testament prophecies of Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel and others were fulfilled prophecies, like the Jewish people do today.

Darby, in the 19th century, when spiritualism was running amuck (many Christians would attend séances after a death of a love one for example) came up with this idea of the dispensations of the ages, which was even more popularized by Clarence Larkin who really all brought this rapture stuff into the 20th century. What does this all have to do with the Book of Revelations, well you see John who wrote Revelations use to be considered full-filled prophecy, before all of this John’s revelations on the island of Patmos was considered to be referred to the tyranny of the Emperor Nero, a concept I still believe. Before all this aforementioned information Christians basically believed and centered their faith in what I refer to the red letter promises of Christ, that he would return, in a second coming. Which I completely believe in, John 14:3, he says "I will come back", and in Matthew 16:27 he says "For the Son of Man is going to return in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.” That is where my faith lies in Christ my Lord, not Darby, not Ribera, and not Larkin. It is said in the end days, "As it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away; they have together become worthless; there is no one who does well, not even one. Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The poison of vipers is on their lips. Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know. There is no fear of God before their eyes" Romans 3 10-18

To speak in complete definite claims, in the end times, is to reveal hypocrisy; we are mere sinful peons, we should stop claiming knowledge which we do not have, everyone believes their own delusions.Time is short; everyone should be worrying about getting close to Christ.

I think Darby, Ribera, and Larkin were just picking and choosing which verses to create an idea which has now festered like a disease, people will draw diagrams of a 7-year tribulation, but this idea was not believed until these people brought it forward. Evil are those who wish to deceive those as weak as you and me! "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

Guess all I am really trying to say is go back, research for yourself and see what 1st century Christians believed in, it might just amaze you. They called themselves the Christ Movement or the Jesus Movement, because they still considered themselves Jewish. Don’t want to shock too many people but there isn’t going to be no rapture, Revelations is fulfilled prophecy, and Jesus is coming again. I hope no one thinks Im evil for not believing in those things which sprung out of the middle ages, into the 19th and 20th century, this is just what the Lord God has taught me.

reply to post by AmosGraber

I think I agree with you about 95%.
I agree that the early church would see the OT as generally fulfilled prophecy, partly because "I will protect Israel from their enemies" statements can be spiritualised, and probably should be, most of the time, to "I will protect the church from Satan".
I agree that much modern interpretation of Revelation, with Raptures, elaborate timeline diagrams, and so on, is overcomplicated.
My own series of interpretations of Revelation, which I heartily recommend, is designed to simplify the whole business as much as possible.
But I'm not convinced that Revelation as a whole was seen as fulfilled. For example, the Four Horsemen were surely always figures of the future in popular imagination?
Perhaps the focus on "endtimes" can be excessive, but we musn't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by AmosGraber

 

But I'm not convinced that Revelation as a whole was seen as fulfilled. For example, the Four Horsemen were surely always figures of the future in popular imagination?

Mind you I am just a simple believer, no theologian, Revelations refers to not only the Emperor Nero as I previously wrote, but also the destruction of Jerusalem in 68-70 A.D, but others think it was meant for the tyranny of the Emperor Domitian during his reign between 81-96 A.D. Regardless it was meant for the seven churches of Asia, and the believers in and around the Mediterranean at the time, hence the many references to water.

In writing this reply and doing some quick referencing I was reminded of a beautiful story about the first generation Christians. After the time of Christ’s crucifixion, His followers were being hunted by not just the Romans but also the Pharisees and Sadducees, they had to meet in secret places. During those times the Jewish Pharisees and Sadducees who were all married (because all Rabbis’s had to be married to be a Rabbi then) considered it a sin to go into the house of a unmarried single women. So the people of the Christ or Jesus Movement decided to meet in the houses of widows and unmarried women to worship. But they couldn’t write down anything Jesus had taught them, if they were found with anything like that they would have been killed on the spot, so the women memorized the words of Jesus and after everyone would arrive after they ate the women would sing the words of Jesus. I can’t imagine a more beautiful song, it wasn’t until some think until 40-60 years later did the disciplines of the different groups of the original 12 apostles started writing down the words they had learned from the songs which had been preserved over that time by the women in the Christ or Jesus movement.


[edit on 26-6-2010 by AmosGraber]

Originally posted by AmosGraber
Regardless it was meant for the seven churches of Asia, and the believers in and around the Mediterranean at the time, hence the many references to water.

The line I'm taking is that Revelation is doing two jobs at the same time.

We can all agree that the purpose of the book is to encourage the church facing persecution under the Romans in John's time; the message is, "Don't worry, I can deal with this. Don't be afraid."

I take the position that the "endtime" application is also valid, inasmuch as the book is also intended to encourage the church in a time of "final" persecution, giving them the same message.

This makes the book more-or-less meaningless to the church of the times inbetween, when it isn't suffering persecution.

So the book has a meaning for its own time, but also a later application; in the same way that remarks made by the OT prophets have a meaning for the people of their own time, but also a Christian application.

I think my theory of interpretation based on that assumption works, as a structure. But I'm not going to call you evil if you're not convinced.

reply to post by DISRAELI


The only thing I am convinced of is two things to Love God as He loves me, and to love, be kind to others, kinda reminds of what He said as His most two important commandments.

But remember in John's context he was living in what he percieved as the end times, the Romans were the beast rising from the sea, I think most of Johns references was to the Romans would eventually be defeated by Christ, and in this John's prophecy was fulfilled.

Originally posted by AmosGraber

But remember in John's context he was living in what he percieved as the end times, the Romans were the beast rising from the sea, I think most of Johns references was to the Romans would eventually be defeated by Christ, and in this John's prophecy was fulfilled.

I will not disagree with you except to suggest that this was the first of two fulfilments.
Anyway, we can keep things in proportion. Revelation is less than 10% of the New Testament. I cannot think you are wrong to put the greater emphasis on the other 90%. But I think trying to express the message of that book clearly is one of the tasks that I have been given

PS As for the seven churches, I am in the middle of a discussion of what John says directly to those churches. here is a link to the first part;

The seven churches have been warned- Pt1

The second part will be appearing over the weekend.
They illustrate my approach very well, because they are based very firmly on a discussion of the historical situation- which ought to appeal to you, as another historian- and I then look for potential analogies.

[edit on 26-6-2010 by DISRAELI]

reply to post by DISRAELI


I completely understand what you mean; however the parts of John’s Revelations which became fulfilled, the eventual destruction of the Roman Empire did come to pass as a fulfillment. I suppose our differences may lay with his warnings. You see I believe there is a great difference between fulfilled prophecy, warnings and promises. In this sense, Jesus promised he would return. I don’t consider that a prophecy but a promise. John prophesied what would happen to the Romans for the persecution of the followers of Christ. The second fulfillment I believe you are speaking should still be considered a warning. John warned the seven churches and the Christians in the world what would happen to them if they failed, strayed, or were deceived by others or even themselves. I think when God's Prophets give warnings they should not be perceived as being a type of Calvinistic type of inevitable pre-destination unfilled prophecy, but as a warning of what will happen if they fail. For this reason: almost all the Lord's Prophets warnings have two sides kind of like a coin. There is the one side which states what will happen if we don’t listen to God followed by the bad things which will happen, yet there is always the other side (which ironically seems to be hardly ever preached these days) which states what happens if we listen to God followed by the great blessings which will follow by our observance of His benevolence. I, guess, I just think too many people read and interpret the bad side of the coin, without ever conceiving or even considering the possibilities of the good side of the coin. God created us as free willed souls, Christ said everything is possible, and no matter how bad the world is in the presentism of today, our children and grandchildren always have the possibility and the hope of overcoming the evils we were not able to triumph over. I believe there is always hope in God’s creation to triumph over evil, and we just need to believe it can be reality. Those who just focus on what will happen to the world if we fail have already been defeated and failed to understand what can happen to the world if we triumph with Christ in our hearts. Reminds me of a quote I think it goes like this, “Some people see things as they are and ask why, I see things as they could be and ask why not?”

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by AmosGraber

PS As for the seven churches, I am in the middle of a discussion of what John says directly to those churches. here is a link to the first part;

The seven churches have been warned- Pt1

The second part will be appearing over the weekend.
They illustrate my approach very well, because they are based very firmly on a discussion of the historical situation- which ought to appeal to you, as another historian- and I then look for potential analogies.

I’ll take a close look at it, thanks.